JonJson
Active Member
Yes exactly like that.
Yes on Feb 2. Yes again on Feb 4. Yes again on March 29.
Phillip Marshall, 9/11 Conspiracy Theorist, Apparent Suicide? Or What?
- Thread starter George B
- Start date
- Status
Yes exactly like that.
Yes on Feb 2. Yes again on Feb 4. Yes again on March 29.
rainbowsally
Member
Then I guess I'm not the public. What you interpreted as being a lack of proficiency and lack of organization of the report writer, I interpreted as being "more of the same"; obfuscation, lack of due diligence, snap decisions, incongruous and inconsistent conclusions, etc.
They could do better, but as the delays just continue, it seems more fitting to get rid of these sheriffs and replace them with people who are willing to work with the public.
See my previous post.
rainbowsally
Member
Let's see if we can remedy that.
I've contacted a few members of the press and some law enforcement folks. I'm curious about their take on this.
I may or may not post any replies I get, but it may change the way I proceed, in case I'm getting too flippant or something. I thought Hewett's comments about "conspiracy theorists" not even believing it if they had a video of Marshall shooting his kids was pretty disrespectful (especially since the investigation and bifurcated reports open the door to paranoia and speculation), but maybe it's not appropriate to reply in kind.
To Others: Case in point re. bifurcated reports is the "time of death" which is reported variously as Thursday night, Saturday morning, and "between" Thursday night and Saturday morining.
This is the most troubling of their apparently deliberate obfuscations because if the kids were killed while sleeping, it would have been night time, which makes determination of the DAY it happened on much easier.
If it takes a "conspiracy theorist" to question this nonsense, who cares. Someone needs to notice it, and it appears that the press is either asleep on the job or intimidated into not questioning such blatant inconsistencies.
Another point of interest is that Hewett said that a person would need to have arms 30 ft long for anyone else to have shot Phillip Marshall. This I interpret as being flippant and here's why. Are we then to suppose that the blood spatter was more profound than an airless paint sprayer blowing paint all over the place indoors? That is the impression we get and it's nonsense. It's nonsense until and unless they SHOW THE EVIDENCE.
If it's true, we have a need to know and a right to know. And if it's not true, someone needs to find other employment.
JonJson
Active Member
It takes a "conspiracy theorist" to draw deliberate obfuscations where there are none. There is no place where the police reported the time of death being two different times. I haven't even found where the police report any specific time of death in their press releases. It is stated quite clearly in this article from the Union Democrat.
"The precise time of the Marshalls’ deaths will likely never be known."
http://www.uniondemocrat.com/News/Local-News/Cal-Sheriff-issues-murder-suicide-report
Hewett is engaging in hyperbole. You may not like it but the information behind his hyperbole is still valid, there was nobody else alive in the house when Marshall shot himself.
JonJson
Active Member
You are correct you are not the public you are merely a member of the public.
The Sheriff is an elected official who won the last election in June 2010. Perhaps you could run against him in the next election cycle.
rainbowsally
Member
Thanks. I forgot. There are now four variations on the time of death thing. I've posted links to the other two articles (uniondemocrat = Sat 3 pm, caleverasenterprise = Thurs night), and the sheriffs report which suggests it between the two times, and now we see a fourth, "will never be known" although if they were shot at night, as we might presume from the alleged "evidence", there are only two possibilities: Thursday night and Friday night with a 24 hour difference between the two, which could be determined easily by taking the liver temperature, or by calculating the blood coagulation rate, or dryness of the blood, etc., etc., so I don't buy this jonjson.
And I am a member of the public. You are right.
I'm also acting as counsel for the defense of the accused, Phillip Marshall, until someone more qualified shows up.
Then I feel confident that my hyperbole is similarly within acceptable protocol.
And so what kind of idiots could take a medical report and say this proves Marshall a) had a mental illness at all, and further extrapolate that b) it was a bipolar disorder?
From the report, verbatim:
You may think that's evidence of the writer of the report's "lack of proficiency" and "poor organization", but it seems to me that if the wording of the one cited (actual) medical record, the one subpoenaed, said anything to support their conclusion (that he had a bipolar disorder instead of adult ADHD or something) it would have been stated explicitly.
I don't buy it, jonjson. Your theory is fatally flawed.
Note also that Phillip Marshall, being dead, has no ability to subpoena documents for his defense. And so far, no witnesses have been forthcoming to his defense. Even those who wrote comments in his support have since gone underground, as though they are fearful of the very people entrusted to protect us all... the public.
rainbowsally
Member
Update: Another bifurcated report.
Autopsy results released on Feb 5 and NOT released on Mar 7.
Released (see article title).
http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_7a125160-6ff5-11e2-9b3b-001a4bcf887a.html
Not Released.
We need to know if the sheriffs' report or if Wayne Madsen's report is correct. They can't both be right.
It's been almost ten weeks since the autopsy has been completed, a month since the above interview with the coroner.
Another bifurcated report and another delay. Why?
Autopsy results released on Feb 5 and NOT released on Mar 7.
Released (see article title).
http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_7a125160-6ff5-11e2-9b3b-001a4bcf887a.html
Not Released.
We need to know if the sheriffs' report or if Wayne Madsen's report is correct. They can't both be right.
It's been almost ten weeks since the autopsy has been completed, a month since the above interview with the coroner.
Another bifurcated report and another delay. Why?
JonJson
Active Member
Okay, I am going to ask you a question about the time of death. If instead of being shot the three of them had died in an accident that didn't involve any outside parties why would establishing the precise moment of their passing be as critical as you imagine it to be in this case? They are just as dead if we say the time of death was 11:30 pm on Thursday evening as if we say the time of death was 5:15 am on Friday morning and Phillip Marshall is just as guilty of committing this tragedy.
rainbowsally
Member
I'm going to split this up because you raise a good question but you follow it up with an inappropriate assumption.
First of all, the time of death should routinely be important, but even more so in the case of a crime. Murder is a crime. Phillip Marshall is the accused.
Even in a car crash, there would be an investigation of some kind to attempt to determine the cause, but when it's a crime scene, it's even more important to accurately attribute "blame" than in an accident scene.
Remember when Toyotas were getting their accellerator pedals stuck and the cars would just keep accelerating and the brakes couldn't stop them?
What if the investigations just assumed the drivers of Toyotas were all crazy for buying rice burners or something. They may never have recalled those cars and fixed the problem.
And THAT is why time of death is important.
Week nights are not the same as Fridays. Saturday mornings in Spring are NOT the same as Thursday nights in winter.
Yet they did their decibel tests on a noisy Saturday morning?
And THAT is why time of death is important.
If someone had been visiting on Thursday but not on Friday, the person visiting might or might not be a suspect depending on when the Marshalls died.
And THAT is why time of death is important.
No, nobody was seen visiting on Thursday, but the sheriffs didn't know that when they decided Phillip Marshall killed his kids.
And THAT is why every detail is important. We don't know how they might dovetail if we ignore the pieces of the puzzle as being unimportant. And your own blood patterns docs suggest as much (see "the literature" on the last page), though you didn't choose to interpret it that way.
The sheriffs reported that he was guilty, but they have not proved he's guilty.
If they ever actually do release the autopsy results, for ten bucks we can see what they discovered. Personally, I'd like to verify which side of the head Phillip Marshall was shot in. Wayne Madsen apparently got the "left side" version from somewhere, but the sheriffs are saying it's the right side. I expect the sheriffs got it right but I'm curious where Madsen got his version from.
And I've asked him to explain HIS version as well.
[Stay tuned]
First of all, the time of death should routinely be important, but even more so in the case of a crime. Murder is a crime. Phillip Marshall is the accused.
Even in a car crash, there would be an investigation of some kind to attempt to determine the cause, but when it's a crime scene, it's even more important to accurately attribute "blame" than in an accident scene.
Remember when Toyotas were getting their accellerator pedals stuck and the cars would just keep accelerating and the brakes couldn't stop them?
What if the investigations just assumed the drivers of Toyotas were all crazy for buying rice burners or something. They may never have recalled those cars and fixed the problem.
And THAT is why time of death is important.
Week nights are not the same as Fridays. Saturday mornings in Spring are NOT the same as Thursday nights in winter.
Yet they did their decibel tests on a noisy Saturday morning?
And THAT is why time of death is important.
If someone had been visiting on Thursday but not on Friday, the person visiting might or might not be a suspect depending on when the Marshalls died.
And THAT is why time of death is important.
No, nobody was seen visiting on Thursday, but the sheriffs didn't know that when they decided Phillip Marshall killed his kids.
And THAT is why every detail is important. We don't know how they might dovetail if we ignore the pieces of the puzzle as being unimportant. And your own blood patterns docs suggest as much (see "the literature" on the last page), though you didn't choose to interpret it that way.
The sheriffs reported that he was guilty, but they have not proved he's guilty.
If they ever actually do release the autopsy results, for ten bucks we can see what they discovered. Personally, I'd like to verify which side of the head Phillip Marshall was shot in. Wayne Madsen apparently got the "left side" version from somewhere, but the sheriffs are saying it's the right side. I expect the sheriffs got it right but I'm curious where Madsen got his version from.
And I've asked him to explain HIS version as well.
[Stay tuned]
JeffreyNotGeoffrey
Active Member
I think you overestimate the ability of forensics to ID a time of death. If it took more than a day to find a body they can only offer windows of time. Also quit using the media as hard fact. Reporters do not like to write inconclusively. They like to churn out info as fast as they can with little regard for initial accuracy.
rainbowsally
Member
If windows of time are all we can get, it's at least something. But the estimated time of death is based on internet traffic and when the bodies were found.
They seem sure the kids were sleeping (though we still don't know how they arrived at that conclusion; apparently there were pillows present, but what kind of pillows, we don't know and was there any bedding?)
But taken at face value, if the kids were sleeping, that makes TWO windows of time separated by 24 full hours. That would be 12 and 36 hours plus and minus 4 hours, approximately, before the bodies were found.
Stating that the "official time of death" (reported at the uniondemocrat.com) was Saturday afternoon when the bodies were found is embarrassingly naive. And the public accepting that as an estimated time of death is equally naive and equally embarrassing.
That screw up, at least, has been corrected in part, but they would have tried to fly that Saturday afternoon thing if not for the much maligned "conspiracy theorists" apparently holding their feet to the fire. Now their estimated window is a three day spread, including the Saturday after the kids missed school on Friday.
Body temperature was not taken? Or was it. When will the autopsy records be available (for ten bucks).
Age of the blood was not considered? Settling of blood in the bodies? Did they preserve any photos of the crime scene? Were any TAKEN?!
The window of time is awfully broad, being between Thursday night and Saturday at 3:10 pm.
How long do you think the sheriffs need to complete their investigation. There are still ballistics and DNA testing results they promised to report to the public.
To your understanding, was the DNA testing ordered 10 weeks ago? Did they decide not to do that, as they apparently decided not to do the gun shot residue testing? And how about ballistics? That only takes a week or two, usually.
Why no ballistics results?
Or have those been done after all and they just decided the results weren't worth reporting.
What's your guess?
To Others: Phillip Marshall had no bullets for his gun for a YEAR. Then suddenly he decided to get some very specific type of bullet which was so rare that there was only one other box in the entire united states, which the sheriffs located through the Big 5 corporate office.
So many incongruities.
Does it seem like a guy that didn't even have bullets for the first year he had his gun would be that much of a connoisseur of hard-to-get ammo?
Or was the ordnance chosen so he could prove himself guilty if the ballistics tests didn't match his weapon or were inconclusive?
So much is wrong with this investigation it's difficult to know where to start enumerating all the blunders.
Why didn't they just call Phillip a "suspect" like normal cops do. Why did they have to commit to an absurd theory so they now apparently have to lie, conceal evidence, obfuscate, make fun of conspiracy theorists (who managed to get them to at least come to a more rational estimate of the times of death) and in effect aid and abet the real killers if it turns out that Phillip Marshall was
a) not mentally ill
b) did not fire the murder weapon
c) did not "debt kill" his children or himself
d) is innocent of all the absurd accusations which neither the sheriffs nor the coroner have demonstrated they even have evidence to prove.
This case would NOT stand up in a court of law if the accused wasn't dead, cold, and buried in the ground.
The sheriffs need to seek employment where they can't do so much damage.
Damage to the reputation of honorable, trustworthy, open and dedicated law enforcement personnel who understand both the standards expected of law enforcement (i.e., "by the book") and the principles of the US Constitution they took an oath to preserve, protect, and defend; the SUPREME Law of the Land that created the very offices they now hold.
JonJson
Active Member
To RainbowSally: Phillip Marshall was observed on video going to the Big 5 store and purchasing the ammunition, there was a receipt for the ammunition found during the investigation. You are aware of this and don't dispute that he bought this ammunition but instead want to obsess on the fact that this ammunition is considered rare or difficult to obtain. There are many reasons that the ammunition could be considered rare. The weight of the bullet, the load of the charge, a discontinued product line are just a few variables. Rare or not he purchased the ammunition there is no evidence that he didn't buy this ammunition.
Stop making up information that the evidence won't support. You don't know that he didn't have bullets for the first year he had his gun what you know is that when someone asked him about his gun he said that he didn't have bullets for the gun, he did not say that he had never had bullets for the gun. He could have gone to the range every Saturday and fired fifty rounds through the gun for the first two months that he owned the gun but neither you nor I know that and we can't support that statement with what either of us do know, just as you can't support the claim that he never had ammunition for the gun.
rainbowsally
Member
But I can support the claim that he never had any ammunition for the gun.
Where Phillip really screwed up though was in getting such a rare bullet. Now, despite the sheriffs not releasing the ballistics, the bullet can still be traced back to his purchase. I think Phillip must have been extraordinarily deranged to think he could get away with it. Don't you? ;-)
[To whom it may concern. You are going to have to push a little. -rs]
rainbowsally
Member
re. no bullets
See in this forum
msg 121
https://www.metabunk.org/posts/29172
msg 173
https://www.metabunk.org/posts/34115
See in this forum
msg 121
https://www.metabunk.org/posts/29172
msg 173
https://www.metabunk.org/posts/34115
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JonJson
Active Member
Read these posts again yourself, I have read them. Still doesn't say NEVER.
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rainbowsally
Member
Newcomders, see "point by point" on page 8 and msg # 312 if you are not familiar with this case. I misreported the pain reliever as being "ocycontin" but it was "vicodin" and I can't edit those posts anymore.
No it doesn't. You are right. But there was only one box of bullets and Marshall said the gun would do him no good just a few days before. I.e., he did not buy bullets with the gun.
Here's a report about another murder suicide to compare.
A Saturday afternoon.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/08/mcnair.shooting/
As we go to the article, we see that this is where the similarity in the reports end.
Right and left temples specified.
GSR test done.
Motive established before theory finalized.
"Is believed to be" in a twelve hour window, "official time of death" was not when bodies were found. (uniondemocrat.com article)
Almost an assured thing, not a done deal; finalize the manner of death in a few days, not a few months.
And...
Time gap and tampering. The caleveras sheriffs reported that some doors in the Marshall home were unlocked. With Marshall's book being the likely prize, are the sheriffs certain Marshall's notes were not stolen?
Wayne Madsen claims the sheriff/coroner's office told him Phillip Marshall's fatal wound was to the left temple.
As you can see, we see, we need to verify the evidence after all this delay.
My interest is only in defending Phillip Marshall. I have picked on the sheriffs reports but I have not spent much time on Sean Marshall/Plummer and I don't intend to unless it becomes absolutely necessary. She has suffered enough.
No it doesn't. You are right. But there was only one box of bullets and Marshall said the gun would do him no good just a few days before. I.e., he did not buy bullets with the gun.
Here's a report about another murder suicide to compare.
A Saturday afternoon.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/08/mcnair.shooting/
As we go to the article, we see that this is where the similarity in the reports end.
Right and left temples specified.
GSR test done.
Motive established before theory finalized.
"Is believed to be" in a twelve hour window, "official time of death" was not when bodies were found. (uniondemocrat.com article)
Almost an assured thing, not a done deal; finalize the manner of death in a few days, not a few months.
And...
Time gap and tampering. The caleveras sheriffs reported that some doors in the Marshall home were unlocked. With Marshall's book being the likely prize, are the sheriffs certain Marshall's notes were not stolen?
Wayne Madsen claims the sheriff/coroner's office told him Phillip Marshall's fatal wound was to the left temple.
As you can see, we see, we need to verify the evidence after all this delay.
My interest is only in defending Phillip Marshall. I have picked on the sheriffs reports but I have not spent much time on Sean Marshall/Plummer and I don't intend to unless it becomes absolutely necessary. She has suffered enough.
rainbowsally
Member
To Phillip Marshall's friends:
Your silence is Phil's death. Think about it. They use silence as proof that their "official theory" is valid.
Don't sit on your thumbs expecting me (see addendum below) to do everything, and Madsen has an economic motive (mine is purely a constitutional interest -- I never knew the guy).
You are the public.
If you are disgusted with the performance of the lapdog media, do something about it.
If I'm all you have to hang your hopes of justice on, you have nothing. And only yourselves to blame. I am an American citizen and I'd like this country to become what the founders envisioned. But if the public isn't worthy of the gift, then give it to someone else.
Got it?
I might bail at any time and then you're stuck with Madsen who is way out there orbiting Jupiter with details that, whether right or wrong, will go NOWHERE. Nowhere. Because culpability disappears between the cracks.
Who had the ball last. The cops.
Focus.
If they know it was a hit and they know who did it, it's up to them to come clean.
Let's give them a reason to.
Got it?
The mud is deep and you're going to have to get out of YOUR car and push a little too.
Mitakuye Oyasin.
ADDENDUM
WeAreChangeTV is also doing a great job here. And without the money motive. But they too have made a plea to those who know phillip marshall to HELP get the truth out. So that is an agreement. Get out of YOUR car and help us push YOU out of the mud.
PS. Mitakuye oyasin is "all my relations" in Lakota/Sioux.
Your silence is Phil's death. Think about it. They use silence as proof that their "official theory" is valid.
Don't sit on your thumbs expecting me (see addendum below) to do everything, and Madsen has an economic motive (mine is purely a constitutional interest -- I never knew the guy).
You are the public.
If you are disgusted with the performance of the lapdog media, do something about it.
If I'm all you have to hang your hopes of justice on, you have nothing. And only yourselves to blame. I am an American citizen and I'd like this country to become what the founders envisioned. But if the public isn't worthy of the gift, then give it to someone else.
Got it?
I might bail at any time and then you're stuck with Madsen who is way out there orbiting Jupiter with details that, whether right or wrong, will go NOWHERE. Nowhere. Because culpability disappears between the cracks.
Who had the ball last. The cops.
Focus.
If they know it was a hit and they know who did it, it's up to them to come clean.
Let's give them a reason to.
Got it?
The mud is deep and you're going to have to get out of YOUR car and push a little too.
Mitakuye Oyasin.
ADDENDUM
WeAreChangeTV is also doing a great job here. And without the money motive. But they too have made a plea to those who know phillip marshall to HELP get the truth out. So that is an agreement. Get out of YOUR car and help us push YOU out of the mud.
PS. Mitakuye oyasin is "all my relations" in Lakota/Sioux.
JonJson
Active Member
Sorry that statement is wrong and you know it is wrong but seem unwilling to admit that it is wrong. I own a gun myself and at one point didn't have ammunition for the gun if I had been asked by a friend I could have said "The gun wouldn't do me any good I don't have any ammo.". That doesn't mean I never had ammunition for the gun and it doesn't mean that I didn't purchase ammunition for the gun when I bought the gun.
rainbowsally
Member
However octagon420, Marshall's publicist confirmed he had no bullets, and his conversation with Marshall was a couple weeks to a month before the incident. So now we have two data points (adding tarquin's similar statement), consistently pointing to his having no bullets.
The sheriffs report said he bought a gun. It did not mention him buying bullets. That's three data points, all suggesting he had a gun but no bullets.
So, no. You are apparently wrong. The only way he could have had bullets other than the box the sheriffs say he bought was if he bought them at some time between when he got the gun and when he talked to his publicist. AND he'd have had to have shot them ALL.
It's significant that he mentioned not having bullets to two people who have posted on the internet. How many people knew he had no bullets for his gun? Could any potential enemies have known that or found that out? And from whom?
Did his wife, for example, know he had no bullets for his gun? She may have even known the safe combination. Why was there a note to her in his safe if she did not know it?
So let's drop this and take a more salient point in the sheriffs' documentation of their investigation.
To jonjson:
Did Phillip Marshall have a bipolar disorder (aka "some kind of mental illness" -- see pages 4-5 of their report)?
What were the symptoms other than dislike for authority figures?
rainbowsally
Member
Hi Xenon.
Hi Xenon. This thread is still going but has been move out of the "what's new" list and into the thread: off topic and rambles. It's admin's call. Seems to be more on topic than ever, but I suppose it could be moved back into an 'active' thread just as easily as it was removed, if admin deems it appropriate to do so.
I did see your msg's. (Including #75)
Take a look at mine.
msg 312 is my "defense" argument. (I misreported 'oxycontin' was the pain reliever, it was "vicodin").
https://www.metabunk.org/posts/34856
This one probably isn't important anymore, but, msg 282 is the analysis of the sheriffs' most recent docs, "point by point".
https://www.metabunk.org/posts/34591
Hi Xenon. This thread is still going but has been move out of the "what's new" list and into the thread: off topic and rambles. It's admin's call. Seems to be more on topic than ever, but I suppose it could be moved back into an 'active' thread just as easily as it was removed, if admin deems it appropriate to do so.
I did see your msg's. (Including #75)
Take a look at mine.
msg 312 is my "defense" argument. (I misreported 'oxycontin' was the pain reliever, it was "vicodin").
https://www.metabunk.org/posts/34856
This one probably isn't important anymore, but, msg 282 is the analysis of the sheriffs' most recent docs, "point by point".
https://www.metabunk.org/posts/34591
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rainbowsally
Member
I am taking an interest in the Constitution's case. I never knew any of the Marshall family.
rainbowsally
Member
Pick a point. Any point. I have retracted a couple of my statements, but chances are you can still find one I maintain is indictative of the sheriffs' "lack of proficiency" and "disorganization", and worse.
rainbowsally
Member
To octagon420 and Seanie Plummer:
Who else knew the combo to Phil's safe? Did you, octagon420? (no) Did you, Sean? (yes - find "marijuana" in the sheriffs' report and msg 312 on page 8 here in this forum.)
Who might she have told the combination to?
Seanie Marshall/Plummer was an odd parent. She said they had an average of about 10 kids over at their home every weekend, spending the night down in "the cave". She said this when she returned from turkey on a flight where the crew of the airline had been instructed not to talk to her. Her statements are in an interview with the uniondemocrat.com in which she described having 20-30 kids over every weekend, preaching the "mental illness" theory to the teenagers.
The sheriffs' 3rd investigation report indicated that Macaila had more alcohol in her blood that Alex did. Both had apparently been drinking on a weeknight (Thurs) though the sheriffs would prefer nobody but they themselves know this.
What did the kids do in "the cave"?
I have tried to lay off Seanie, but it's getting hard to because... because.
Octagon420, add the above to things you may have heard from Phillip directly.
PEOPLE! I don't want to throw the mom under the bus. She's suffered enough already. Everyone makes bad choices sometimes and some choices are a bit worse than others.
But I FULLY INTEND THAT PHILLIP MARSHAL HAS A DEFENSE AGAINST THIS AWFUL EXCUSE FOR AN INVESTIGATION AND THE [brave sheriffs, deputies, and coroner] THAT PROMULGATED IT.
"Brave".
They like hearing that kind of stuff. But they know the truth... They aren't just kicking a guy when he's down, they are kicking him when he's DEAD. "Brave".
Sean, stop reading here, please. You have been warned.
Here's the mom describing the kids' life style when they were with her. (No wonder Phillip slapped Sean's sister! Child endangerment! And not just their own kids.)
http://www.uniondemocrat.com/News/Local-News/Mom-of-murdered-children-interviewed
There's a lot that can be analyzed here but here are a couple of highlights.
No doubt they have indeed healed her (but... perhaps not in the way we might think?) and I don't want to reopen the wound, but I do intend to defend Phillip Marshall.
It's every citizen's right per the US Constitution. See "compulsory process" under Amendment 6 of the US Constitution.
And if Phillip is innocent, someone ELSE is guilty!
Seanie, everyone makes bad choices sometimes. So think of happier times. Times when you didn't have to lie to children to cover up your own bad choices.
I'm sorry, but someone has to put an end to this charade.
Who else knew the combo to Phil's safe? Did you, octagon420? (no) Did you, Sean? (yes - find "marijuana" in the sheriffs' report and msg 312 on page 8 here in this forum.)
Who might she have told the combination to?
Seanie Marshall/Plummer was an odd parent. She said they had an average of about 10 kids over at their home every weekend, spending the night down in "the cave". She said this when she returned from turkey on a flight where the crew of the airline had been instructed not to talk to her. Her statements are in an interview with the uniondemocrat.com in which she described having 20-30 kids over every weekend, preaching the "mental illness" theory to the teenagers.
The sheriffs' 3rd investigation report indicated that Macaila had more alcohol in her blood that Alex did. Both had apparently been drinking on a weeknight (Thurs) though the sheriffs would prefer nobody but they themselves know this.
What did the kids do in "the cave"?
I have tried to lay off Seanie, but it's getting hard to because... because.
Octagon420, add the above to things you may have heard from Phillip directly.
PEOPLE! I don't want to throw the mom under the bus. She's suffered enough already. Everyone makes bad choices sometimes and some choices are a bit worse than others.
But I FULLY INTEND THAT PHILLIP MARSHAL HAS A DEFENSE AGAINST THIS AWFUL EXCUSE FOR AN INVESTIGATION AND THE [brave sheriffs, deputies, and coroner] THAT PROMULGATED IT.
"Brave".
They like hearing that kind of stuff. But they know the truth... They aren't just kicking a guy when he's down, they are kicking him when he's DEAD. "Brave".
Sean, stop reading here, please. You have been warned.
Here's the mom describing the kids' life style when they were with her. (No wonder Phillip slapped Sean's sister! Child endangerment! And not just their own kids.)
http://www.uniondemocrat.com/News/Local-News/Mom-of-murdered-children-interviewed
There's a lot that can be analyzed here but here are a couple of highlights.
No doubt they have indeed healed her (but... perhaps not in the way we might think?) and I don't want to reopen the wound, but I do intend to defend Phillip Marshall.
It's every citizen's right per the US Constitution. See "compulsory process" under Amendment 6 of the US Constitution.
And if Phillip is innocent, someone ELSE is guilty!
Seanie, everyone makes bad choices sometimes. So think of happier times. Times when you didn't have to lie to children to cover up your own bad choices.
I'm sorry, but someone has to put an end to this charade.
rainbowsally
Member
And so, in closing (as it would appear) one final question.
Who's got copies of the newest book? ;-)
Who's got copies of the newest book? ;-)
JeffreyNotGeoffrey
Active Member
So out of morbid curiosity I looked to see if the dead do have constitutional rights. I researched a few sites, and the answer was mostly NO. The dead have almost no legal say in anything. Survivors can disregard parts of the will as well as final wishes. About the only real say they have is the disposition of their goods and in some states their image, likeness, etc. The dead do not even have a real say in how they are disposed of after death. That part again is left to survivors or the state if there are no survivors.
So in closing saying Marshall deserves a fair hearing and a lawyer is bollucks. He cannot be tried because he cannot be punished. About the only right they have and use is the right to be silent. So please stop with the shtick that you are his lawyer. For one only the family could possibly take this up, and they seem quite disinclined. For two which goes with one you have ZERO legal standing to do ANYTHING legally for Marshall unless the family releases said right. Go contact them if you wish. I would love to be there for that.
So in closing saying Marshall deserves a fair hearing and a lawyer is bollucks. He cannot be tried because he cannot be punished. About the only right they have and use is the right to be silent. So please stop with the shtick that you are his lawyer. For one only the family could possibly take this up, and they seem quite disinclined. For two which goes with one you have ZERO legal standing to do ANYTHING legally for Marshall unless the family releases said right. Go contact them if you wish. I would love to be there for that.
rainbowsally
Member
What if a guy has no family? The Constitution is clear and the principles are easily discerned. And it works for everyone, because if the dead guy is innocent someone ELSE is guilty.
Simple, really, if you think about it.
rainbowsally
Member
ADDENDUM: The "11.2 Gs" terms have been google bombed. Add "Pentagon" to the search terms to get the right hits.
This was not part of Marshall's conspiracy theory. He didn't mention it in any of his previous books. It was calculated by pilots for truth.
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/descent_rate031308.html near the bottom.
Here's a short snip, but the whole article is very convincing.
And pilots for truth don't mention that 11.2 Gs would cause you to pass out due to blood leaving the brain (that's 11.2 times the pull of gravity as centrifugal force).
Note that nobody is saying the type of plane suggested didn't hit the Pentagon. They are just saying the "official theory" is a fantasy.
Same with sheriffs' investigation of the the Phillip Marshall and his kids' deaths.
BTW, Phillip Marshall's conclusion and methods of determining the "official theory" was incorrect. He wrote that it took him, with 20,000 hours experience with that kind of aircraft, four attempts before he could hit the Pentagon at all. This suggested that relative amatures trained in the wrong kind of aircraft could not possibly have flown a jet airliner into the Pentagon.
This led him to many other conclusions, including the impossibility of KSM being the "master mind" behind the 9/11 attacks, which was extracted under torture, having been waterboarded 183 times in one month.
By not correcting these obviously false "official explanations" the authorities go from simply being mistaken to becoming obvious LIARS!
We need checks and balances. Pilots for truth were the checks. Now where are the balances.
The releasing of actual photo evidence in the Philip Marshall case (especially autopsy photos) is the way we can "check" their conclusion about which side of the head Phillip Marshall was shot in, because they have said two different versions of that. And photo copies and other photo evidence including the alleged footage of Marshall buying bullets must not be similarly "checked". Because the sheriffs got significant parts of their incomplete investigation WRONG!
And very very late.
We may try to close this again, with the one comment: Who besides Phillip and Sean knew the combination to his safe.
Thanks for the forum, metabunk.
This was not part of Marshall's conspiracy theory. He didn't mention it in any of his previous books. It was calculated by pilots for truth.
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/descent_rate031308.html near the bottom.
Here's a short snip, but the whole article is very convincing.
And pilots for truth don't mention that 11.2 Gs would cause you to pass out due to blood leaving the brain (that's 11.2 times the pull of gravity as centrifugal force).
Note that nobody is saying the type of plane suggested didn't hit the Pentagon. They are just saying the "official theory" is a fantasy.
Same with sheriffs' investigation of the the Phillip Marshall and his kids' deaths.
BTW, Phillip Marshall's conclusion and methods of determining the "official theory" was incorrect. He wrote that it took him, with 20,000 hours experience with that kind of aircraft, four attempts before he could hit the Pentagon at all. This suggested that relative amatures trained in the wrong kind of aircraft could not possibly have flown a jet airliner into the Pentagon.
This led him to many other conclusions, including the impossibility of KSM being the "master mind" behind the 9/11 attacks, which was extracted under torture, having been waterboarded 183 times in one month.
By not correcting these obviously false "official explanations" the authorities go from simply being mistaken to becoming obvious LIARS!
We need checks and balances. Pilots for truth were the checks. Now where are the balances.
The releasing of actual photo evidence in the Philip Marshall case (especially autopsy photos) is the way we can "check" their conclusion about which side of the head Phillip Marshall was shot in, because they have said two different versions of that. And photo copies and other photo evidence including the alleged footage of Marshall buying bullets must not be similarly "checked". Because the sheriffs got significant parts of their incomplete investigation WRONG!
And very very late.
We may try to close this again, with the one comment: Who besides Phillip and Sean knew the combination to his safe.
Thanks for the forum, metabunk.
JeffreyNotGeoffrey
Active Member
Too bad once you are dead you stop being a person and become a thing. Sorry but could you either point out where in the Constitution it says the dead have rights or point to a court case in which the dead were entitled to due process or habeas corpus. Also as said you have no legal standing; Marshall does have a family who chose not to pursue the matter. Further from what I read if the deceased had no family all legal issues and property go to the state. Debunk the above statements if you can. Maybe his state has different rules.
Also all of Marshall's bunk theories have probably been debunked elsewhere on this forum. I would invite you to read those.
Also all of Marshall's bunk theories have probably been debunked elsewhere on this forum. I would invite you to read those.
rainbowsally
Member
Addendum: 4 data points = no bullets. (Find "data points" on this page)
Wayne Madsen reported a neighbor had also said he had no bullets. It's possible that the neighbor IS one of the other three, but if not, that's four people saying he had no bullets, including the sheriffs' report which did not report him buying ammo when he bought the gun in 2011. [Fair is fair. Their own logic as in "doesn't exclude".] (See data points ref above.)
Wayne Madsen reported a neighbor had also said he had no bullets. It's possible that the neighbor IS one of the other three, but if not, that's four people saying he had no bullets, including the sheriffs' report which did not report him buying ammo when he bought the gun in 2011. [Fair is fair. Their own logic as in "doesn't exclude".] (See data points ref above.)
rainbowsally
Member
re. You stop being a person.
True! Very true. So the problem isn't Phillip Marshall's. He and his kids have gone where all of us go, and in the eternal scheme of things, what's the difference between a second and a hundred years.
The problem is for those of us remaining. What country is this supposed to be?
re. Phillip Marshall's bunk.
So what if it's bunk. Who cares. The main issue is who killed his kids, the secondary issue is who killed him, and as it turns out its almost CERTAINLY the same person or person(s) in both cases.
What is equally certain is that this so called investigation has been very irregular and protracted.
If the irregularities and protraction, for ten weeks now, with no way to know if the sheriffs even have ANY evidence they claim they have, are deliberate, this would be by definition a "conspiracy" if more than one sheriff knows the truth and colludes with others to prevent the truth from being revealed.
The sheriffs too, have the presumption of innocence, but the evidence them is circumstantial and accruing by the minute.
jonjson ascribes the anomalies to "lack of proficiency" and being "disorganized", which was attributed to the writer of the report.
Where do YOU say the anomalies came from?
JeffreyNotGeoffrey
Active Member
Well for one YOU made a big deal of his rights which I pointed out do not exist. You kept doing so even after it was pointed out to you. You would not last long as council in court any way.
Two, YOU make it sound in numerous posts that he knew something about 9/11 and was silenced for it. I say the man was a purveyor of bunk which would not require elite assassins from the government to silence as YOU say or imply in a few posts.
Last police are human. there are reasons for the holes. As J pointed out but also most investigations do not tie everything into a neat package. While their workmanship was not great their conclusions and story are inescapable given the evidence. Their story adds up and is backed by hard evidence. Your version grasps at straws, has more uncertainty, and is largely based on supposition. Further you keep rehashing the stupid issue of bullets. They have his receipt and have him on video buying them. Did you need to be there to accept the man bought bullets... Why in the name of Buddha do you keep bringing up that moot and dead point is beyond me.
Two, YOU make it sound in numerous posts that he knew something about 9/11 and was silenced for it. I say the man was a purveyor of bunk which would not require elite assassins from the government to silence as YOU say or imply in a few posts.
Last police are human. there are reasons for the holes. As J pointed out but also most investigations do not tie everything into a neat package. While their workmanship was not great their conclusions and story are inescapable given the evidence. Their story adds up and is backed by hard evidence. Your version grasps at straws, has more uncertainty, and is largely based on supposition. Further you keep rehashing the stupid issue of bullets. They have his receipt and have him on video buying them. Did you need to be there to accept the man bought bullets... Why in the name of Buddha do you keep bringing up that moot and dead point is beyond me.
rainbowsally
Member
They are human, yes. But that's why good cops are the ones that go by the book, impartial. Compare the investigation I linked on page 10. There's no comparison, they didn't jump to conclusions, they didn't even finalize their theory until all the tests were done and they were almost done (had the GSR) within the first WEEK!
There was a bottleneck in Sacramento holding up the toxicology. It was several weeks, from what we've been told. Why the alleged delay in the DNA testing? Why no GSR testing at all?
I don't care if he's right or wrong about his theories, and I thought I made that clear. What I do care about is when the "official theories" are wrong and the authorities care more about protecting their gut feelings than they do about the truth and honoring their responsibilities to the public and to the Constitution.
The Constitution doesn't say dead guys have any rights, that's true. And I explained that it's the rest of us that need the truth here. What if Marshall's innocent? THEN someone else is guilty, and the sheriffs are complicit in the murders as accomplices after the fact. Serious stuff.
And by your way of thinking there'd be no separation between church and state, though the combination harms both, which is simply common sense. And you'd arrive at this by noticing that the Constitution doesn't explicitly state that there must be separation between the two, it's only implied in the first amendment, in the 'no religious test' reference and 'or affirmation' which doesn't violate Matt 3:35, so that even Christians could take the oath of office in good conscience.
It is the "spirit of the law" that you don't quite get.
Yes, Phillip Marshall has a right to a defense, even posthumously. Let's not wait until this is a "cold case", which by your thinking wouldn't ever need to be solved either.
rainbowsally
Member
It seems to me...
It seems to me that conspiracy theorists are better and noticing odd details but skeptics are better at interpreting them.
But there's another class of people and that is the habitual debunkers, who are not true skeptics but like hunters just enjoy shooting down conspiracy theorists as though for sport.
A true skeptic looks at the 'evidence'.
In the Phillip Marshall case, there may in fact be none. The reason we can say this is due to the inordinate delays in producing it, the lack of photographic documentation, the unusual snap decisions and lack of professionalism and lack of concern for normal forensics.
It is not necessary to advance a conspiracy theory, though the obvious one would be that the sheriffs are so arrogant that they think the public has no right to see how they came to their conclusions. It is only necessary to notice that the sheriffs unapologetically slandered the dead man and continue to produce only "evidence" that fits their initial faulty "theory".
Faulty? You bet! Even after the third report, 8 weeks delayed, they have not done the basic required GSR test. And now we are to assume that DNA testing and ballistics are responsible for the 10 week delay?
And the piece de resistance is the conclusion that Phillip Marshall had a bipolar disorder, as concluded from the ONE "medical record" obtained by a warrant that a) "suggested" that he b) "had some kind of mental illness".
Either this is supreme incompetence or an indication that the sheriffs are incapable of interpreting ANY evidence honestly.
They seem to think they have top notch investigators. So that eliminates the first of the options. That leaves only one other possibility.
Thanks for this forum, metabunk.
It seems to me that conspiracy theorists are better and noticing odd details but skeptics are better at interpreting them.
But there's another class of people and that is the habitual debunkers, who are not true skeptics but like hunters just enjoy shooting down conspiracy theorists as though for sport.
A true skeptic looks at the 'evidence'.
In the Phillip Marshall case, there may in fact be none. The reason we can say this is due to the inordinate delays in producing it, the lack of photographic documentation, the unusual snap decisions and lack of professionalism and lack of concern for normal forensics.
It is not necessary to advance a conspiracy theory, though the obvious one would be that the sheriffs are so arrogant that they think the public has no right to see how they came to their conclusions. It is only necessary to notice that the sheriffs unapologetically slandered the dead man and continue to produce only "evidence" that fits their initial faulty "theory".
Faulty? You bet! Even after the third report, 8 weeks delayed, they have not done the basic required GSR test. And now we are to assume that DNA testing and ballistics are responsible for the 10 week delay?
And the piece de resistance is the conclusion that Phillip Marshall had a bipolar disorder, as concluded from the ONE "medical record" obtained by a warrant that a) "suggested" that he b) "had some kind of mental illness".
Either this is supreme incompetence or an indication that the sheriffs are incapable of interpreting ANY evidence honestly.
They seem to think they have top notch investigators. So that eliminates the first of the options. That leaves only one other possibility.
Thanks for this forum, metabunk.
JonJson
Active Member
Comparing the two jurisdictions though we can see that Calaveras County has a population of about 45,000 and that Nashville has over 600,000. I would expect the two police forces which would have a similar size disparity to have different responses.
Okay don't obsess on insignificant details like why didn't he kill the cat and why did he use rare bullets. Just focus on what items in the investigation don't support the "official theories".
What if Marshall is guilty?
There is no defense because there is no trial.
rainbowsally
Member
Starting with neighbors who were interviewed (which is where the report started), we see Merita Callaway who was interviewed at the caleverasenterprise.
Find "Callaway" on page 9 of this forum.
https://www.metabunk.org/posts/35009
The Santa Barbara view has pulled all their articles, but there are many others who "had a hard time with it" and who felt that someone must have come into the home.
Add to this the non sequitur, default argument that Phillip must be guilty because there were no signs of forced entry, though the report itself says that some doors were unlocked, as though someone couldn't have come in through an open door, including the front door having been invited in.
Invited in. Never considered.
Now...
Then so be it.
There has indeed been a media trial, and it was fueled by a bogus, botched, and/or dishonest "investigation".
Hatred for conspiracy theorists should never have entered the equation. That is simply prejudice and unfortunately prejudice characterizes the entire investigation.
GSR tests, for goodness sakes. What jurisdiction recommends against doing that as a standard for even obvious suicides when a gun is involved?
And jurisdiction should have very little to do with the delays in the DNA test results, even if they have to send it out to have it done. TEN WEEKS, and counting.
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JonJson
Active Member
I wanted to offer this information.
http://journals.lww.com/amjforensic..._Residue_Testing_in_Suicides__Part_I__.1.aspx
rainbowsally
Member
Good find. Thanks.
How many times was the gun shot in a self inflicted gunshot and how many times was a gun fired in this one?
Do you know how to do the math for the 50 percent figure when the gun is shot three times?
Is it (0.5^3) (50% x 50% x 50%) = 1/8 or is it some other calculation such as (1 - (.5^3) = 7/8ths.
[Correction. Four shots were allegedly fired. This would result in 15/16ths reliability, or about 94% of the time. This is similar to the results of the "Sandia" tests below. In the case of a suicide where no other people were shot, jonjson's docs are probably right due to the fact that the weapon might be dropped immediately after firing. But there are other problems with the GSR tests and so I'm dropping this issue from my arguments in defense of the accused, Phillip Marshall, who has a Constitution guaranteed right to a "defense", and "counsel" which I'm acting as until someone more qualified takes over. -rs]
rainbowsally
Member
Correction:
I withdraw my request for GSR analysis, though I'd like to explain why.
I had thought GSR tests were standard. There are two problems with it (despite the fact that Marshall was thought to have fire the weapon FOUR times).
problem 1.
Very bad for the "sheriffs' case" in this investigation, as they had usurped the judicial process and found the man guilty within hours of discovering the bodies.
problem 2.
False positives.
Since the gun was allegedly fired, and it was allegedly fired four times indoors, but neither the weapon nor Phillip Marshall's hands were tested for gunshot residue (GSR), it seems the sheriffs, and the public, will be relying on THOROUGH AND EXTENSIVE DNA testing to make up for this lacking.
Two and a half months later.... still waiting for the report that includes the DNA results.
I withdraw my request for GSR analysis, though I'd like to explain why.
I had thought GSR tests were standard. There are two problems with it (despite the fact that Marshall was thought to have fire the weapon FOUR times).
problem 1.
http://www.realpolice.net/forums/as...gunshot-residue-testing-begin.html#post686331
Very bad for the "sheriffs' case" in this investigation, as they had usurped the judicial process and found the man guilty within hours of discovering the bodies.
problem 2.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18825274.300
False positives.
Since the gun was allegedly fired, and it was allegedly fired four times indoors, but neither the weapon nor Phillip Marshall's hands were tested for gunshot residue (GSR), it seems the sheriffs, and the public, will be relying on THOROUGH AND EXTENSIVE DNA testing to make up for this lacking.
Two and a half months later.... still waiting for the report that includes the DNA results.
rainbowsally
Member
If anyone else want's to stay with the GSR issue (which I'm dropping) this might interest you.
GSR Field Test Kit Results
Sandia did field testing (not sent to the lab) and found that a 9 mm semi-automatic pistol showed GSR for both tests consisting of
A one shot
B six shots
A 9 mm semi-automatic (what Phillip Marshall owned) showed GSR for test A, which was just one shot from a new gun.
A .22 short, by comparison did not show GSR for either test.
[See the description of the tests at the bottom.]
Here's the docs.
http://prod.sandia.gov/techlib/access-control.cgi/2001/013942.pdf
And here's a couple of excerpts.
See the docs linked above to see the comparison of the 9 mm semi-automatic to other guns, and also see the previous post above for reasons I'm dropping this issue.
GSR Field Test Kit Results
Sandia did field testing (not sent to the lab) and found that a 9 mm semi-automatic pistol showed GSR for both tests consisting of
A one shot
B six shots
A 9 mm semi-automatic (what Phillip Marshall owned) showed GSR for test A, which was just one shot from a new gun.
A .22 short, by comparison did not show GSR for either test.
[See the description of the tests at the bottom.]
Here's the docs.
http://prod.sandia.gov/techlib/access-control.cgi/2001/013942.pdf
And here's a couple of excerpts.
Here are descriptions of the tests.
See the docs linked above to see the comparison of the 9 mm semi-automatic to other guns, and also see the previous post above for reasons I'm dropping this issue.
rainbowsally
Member
Newcomers. See "Phillip Marshall CIA" on the net.
This thread has been deemed to be "off topic" and "rambles" because it no longer is about debunking Phillip Marshall's conspiracy theories (a non-issue) but is now about debunking the Caleveras County Sheriffs' hasty "theory" that Phillip Marshal shot his kids in the living room, then went into the bedroom and shot his dog, and then went back into the living room and killed himself, and the decided absoltutly that Phillip Marshall did killed his kids and himself only hours after finding the bodies.
The third update, still incomplete due to missing DNA and ballistics results says:
1. Front door unlocked.
2. Kids drinking and on twitter, etc. until late at night on a school night (Thursday).
3. Wife and possibly others knew the combination to his safe (implied by note to her inside the safe and her past history of stealing opiates that were prescribed to him).
4. The one "medical report" obtained by a warrant "suggested" that Phillip Marshall had "some kind of mental illness" which the sheriffs re-diagnosed as having been a "bipolar disorder" due to that term being present in some other kind of "record" they obtained (from somewhere) that was apparently written in or around 2006.
That's the kind of "evidence" the sheriffs claim proves he shot his kids?
Moreover the autopsy results ($10) are still not available and so the public cannot see any part of how the sheriffs came to their conclusions and in fact there is no evidence that there even IS any "evidence".
It's now been ten weeks and the investigation is still incomplete and the sheriffs maintain that Phillip Marshall is guilty without bothering to adequately prove it to any kind of legal standard.
See msg 312 on pg 9 for my argument in Phillip Marshall's defense and see msg 282, "point by point", on page 8 for a point by point rebuttal of the sheriffs' argument (alleged investigation report).
Msg 312
https://www.metabunk.org/posts/34856
Msg 282
https://www.metabunk.org/posts/34591
Note: I misreported the pain reliever's common name as "oxycontin". It was "vicodin". I can't edit it anymore, but be aware of this inaccuracy. I also retract the parts about gun shot residue testing (GSR) as that test could err either way in this case.
This thread has been deemed to be "off topic" and "rambles" because it no longer is about debunking Phillip Marshall's conspiracy theories (a non-issue) but is now about debunking the Caleveras County Sheriffs' hasty "theory" that Phillip Marshal shot his kids in the living room, then went into the bedroom and shot his dog, and then went back into the living room and killed himself, and the decided absoltutly that Phillip Marshall did killed his kids and himself only hours after finding the bodies.
The third update, still incomplete due to missing DNA and ballistics results says:
1. Front door unlocked.
2. Kids drinking and on twitter, etc. until late at night on a school night (Thursday).
3. Wife and possibly others knew the combination to his safe (implied by note to her inside the safe and her past history of stealing opiates that were prescribed to him).
4. The one "medical report" obtained by a warrant "suggested" that Phillip Marshall had "some kind of mental illness" which the sheriffs re-diagnosed as having been a "bipolar disorder" due to that term being present in some other kind of "record" they obtained (from somewhere) that was apparently written in or around 2006.
That's the kind of "evidence" the sheriffs claim proves he shot his kids?
Moreover the autopsy results ($10) are still not available and so the public cannot see any part of how the sheriffs came to their conclusions and in fact there is no evidence that there even IS any "evidence".
It's now been ten weeks and the investigation is still incomplete and the sheriffs maintain that Phillip Marshall is guilty without bothering to adequately prove it to any kind of legal standard.
See msg 312 on pg 9 for my argument in Phillip Marshall's defense and see msg 282, "point by point", on page 8 for a point by point rebuttal of the sheriffs' argument (alleged investigation report).
Msg 312
https://www.metabunk.org/posts/34856
Msg 282
https://www.metabunk.org/posts/34591
Note: I misreported the pain reliever's common name as "oxycontin". It was "vicodin". I can't edit it anymore, but be aware of this inaccuracy. I also retract the parts about gun shot residue testing (GSR) as that test could err either way in this case.
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