• MH370 speculation has become excessive recently. Metabunk is not a forum for creating theories by speculation. It's a forum for examining claims, and seeing if they hold up. Please respect this and keep threads on-topic. There are many other forums where speculation is welcome.

MH370 Preliminary Report Released - Full Text and Files

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
I can't and don't want to believe that the US government could be so heinous and noncaring about human life that it wouldn't disclose its secrets if it meant helping in the discovery of this plane.
I'm pretty sure that it was assumed that all lives have been lost by the time of the request.
 

Jason

Senior Member
Simon, the list of your poorly sourced/not credible/fictional leads is growing. For anyone to take you seriously, I feel you need to step back and verify that everything you use is reported by at least two independent, credible sources.

Now, you probably don't trust the Malaysian govt to be 100% forthcoming and I agree with you on that, but quoting beforeitnews in support of these theories doesn't help anyone's credibility.
OT: TW Cobra or any pilot, the general answers one of Sean's questions about fuel.
My question was did flight MH 370 have enough fuel to fly this distance because Sean states that flights that are this short usually only fly with enough fuel so they don't have to land with alot of fuel on board. The General makes a comment like, for what ever reason they fueled up more than they should've because the last handshake was 7hrs later. So we know there was obviously enough fuel for the flight to last that long, but my question is; Should this flight from Malaysia to Bejing have had enough fuel on board to fly this long to begin with. Is it customary for planes to carry that much in excess, or is it not excess? Thanks
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
I don't know if this means the plane was necessarily in the air at that last ping? He's constructing his theory around that being the definite case.
 

Jason

Senior Member
I don't know if this means the plane was necessarily in the air at that last ping? He's constructing his theory around that being the definite case.
Isn't it a matter of fact now since the Inmarsat data was released.
 

TWCobra

Senior Member.
I don't know Malaysian Airlines fuel policy, however standard reserves generally give around one hours flying in excess of the flight time. On top of that, some airlines require a full alternate, which is enough fuel to do an approach, go around and fly to another airport and land with statutory reserves. On top of that there may be holding fuel requirements plus Captains may add discretionary fuel.

So to answer you question, having enough fuel to fly for seven hours on a sector like this one is IMHO, not unusual.
 

Jason

Senior Member
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_McInerney

Honestly, after reading this guy's credentials, how is it "possible" to doubt what he says, and why would he have an agenda when he's devoted his life to this nation. Makes you wonder
 

Jason

Senior Member
I don't know Malaysian Airlines fuel policy, however standard reserves generally give around one hours flying in excess of the flight time. On top of that, some airlines require a full alternate, which is enough fuel to do an approach, go around and fly to another airport and land with statutory reserves. On top of that there may be holding fuel requirements plus Captains may add discretionary fuel.

So to answer you question, having enough fuel to fly for seven hours on a sector like this one is IMHO, not unusual.
Is it possible to find an airliners fuel policy online if I search, or is it a waste of time?
 

TWCobra

Senior Member.
Most are similar to what I described and are usually commercial-in-confidence. From what I know of asian airlines, most carry full alternates.
 

Jason

Senior Member
I thought the data *hadn't* been released, hence all the calls for it to be?
I know there was the infamous chart Inmarsat released which showed the handshakes with a north/south track. I know they haven't released their data but the chart insinuates that the plane was airborne for over 7 hours.
 

Jason

Senior Member
Most are similar to what I described and are usually commercial-in-confidence. From what I know of asian airlines, most carry full alternates.
Help me understand what a full alternative is. Does that mean if your flying from Malaysia to Bejing, your main tank would carry enough fuel to get there with added fuel for circling and waiting for landing, and then you would also have an alternative (reserve tank) so that you could fly to the nearest airport. Do they calculate the alternative based on airports in the vacinity of Bejing or what. Or do they just fill the alternative tank up, and if so how much fuel does an alternative carry which translates into how much flying time. thanks
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Honestly, after reading this guy's credentials, how is it "possible" to doubt what he says, and why would he have an agenda when he's devoted his life to this nation. Makes you wonder
Really? After reading things like this -

how is it possible to view anything he says as not being agenda-driven and of very questionable credibility?
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
I know there was the infamous chart Inmarsat released which showed the handshakes with a north/south track. I know they haven't released their data but the chart insinuates that the plane was airborne for over 7 hours.
Okay then, I don't want to muddy the waters further, it was just half-remembered hearsay on my part that the final ping could have been sent after it was no longer in flight.
 

Jason

Senior Member
Really? After reading things like this -

how is it possible to view anything he says as not being agenda-driven and of very questionable credibility?
Agreed, didn't read that. But, he is one smart dude who has devoted his entire adult life to this nation. With that said, any military analyst in the media regardless of what alphabet news show they are on, are agenda driven. The fact of the matter is he also is privy to internal government chatter and probably is a source for Fox news because he has contacts still working in the military intelligence. I don't doubt for a second they don't try to shape our views, but I doubt a guy like this would blatantly tell a lie without being based on some truths or at least one truth. Sean Hannity was also trying to label this terrorism from the get go, so maybe that had some influence on how they wanted the general to appear on the show
 

Jason

Senior Member
Okay then, I don't want to muddy the waters further, it was just half-remembered hearsay on my part that the final ping could have been sent after it was no longer in flight.
That could be true too, but I think after using doppler shift and the handshakes they were able to determine the speed of the aircraft at each handshake. But don't quote me on that.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
It seems to me that if an Attorney at the US Bar publicly cites a public TV broadcast, then that would be the equivalent of a notarised statement and acceptable in a court of law.

Why on earth would you think that??

Orly Taitz has been caught lying to the court - although the judge decided not to sanction her for doing so as the matter was reasonably trivial and he wanted things to move along.

You seem to be placing the bar for evidence higher than a court would.

I think you have no idea what evidence a court might accept - someone quoting a TV show cannot be more than 2nd hand evidence - hearsay!
 
Google Orly Taitz then return to this discussion. He is a birther.

Not sure what you mean by a "birther" and it does not seem very relevant. On her blog she is a woman not a man.

http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/breakin...t-a-source-that-confirmed-it-yesterday-video/

I really don't care what her beliefs are and stated when I first mentioned her and the General that I did not subscribe to their beliefs. I note that the US Government and the NSA do not subscribe to their beliefs either, however the US Government did not deny they held information about MH370, but rather they admitted the fact but denied they were obliged to release it.

http://www.straitstimes.com/the-big...res-sealed-evidence-mh370-cannot-be-made-publ

There is confirmation from Malaysia that they too are keeping several matters secret:

 

NoParty

Senior Member.
Not sure what you mean by a "birther" and it does not seem very relevant.


[/EX]
I don't usually recommend Wikipedia, but read Orly's page...all of the legal papers she's filed...she makes Alex Jones look like Abraham Lincoln. Her "birther" delusion is just the tip of a very disturbed iceberg.
 
Why on earth would you think that??

I think you have no idea what evidence a court might accept - someone quoting a TV show cannot be more than 2nd hand evidence - hearsay!

Why do I get the impression you would not accept your own father without a paternity test?

This is an immature debate like a bunch of kittens chasing their own tail. It is not my job to defend Orly Taitz. I do not subscribe to her beliefs but more importantly they are not relevant. All that is pertinent is that NSA declined a request for information about MH370.

The NSA declined a request under the Freedom Of Information Act to disclose information about MH370. If you have a further problem with that go and complain to the NSA.





 
So you're saying there is credence to the communications that were intercepted by the US or Malaysia, but you think they were a distress call and not terrorism related. The only concern I have over this, and I don't doubt your story about a cabin fire, catastrophic cabin damage, O2 induced....., but if the US or Malaysia did receive a distress call, and if two nations heard it, isn't it likely other near by countries heard it. Secondly, what would be the reason to not act on such a distress call (terrorism or catastrohpy)? Lastly, why would a nation or two nations keep that under wraps?

Jason they did act on it. There was a huge search off Cambodia's Thao Chu island and Vietnam was telling the world that it was seen going down south of Phu Quoc Island, but in retrospect that was merely their interpretation of losing MH370's transponder return at BITOD.

I believe Malaysia's motive could be to conceal serious maintenance issues with the 2011 appointment of Azhari as CEO Maintenence. One can only speculate as to US motives but it may be that Malaysia plays an important role in US espionage within China. If that were the case the US government could be deferential to Malaysian sensitivities. For example the collapse of a pro-western right wing Government in Malaysia could be very damaging to US national interests. I note that Thailand is now under marshall law.

Yes I believe in the KISS principle. In the absence of any concrete evidence of a criminal act, or a criminal conspiracy, Occam's Razor suggests it was an inflight accident (albeit a very bizarre and puzzling one)

Occam's Razor also suggests if you accept it was an inflight accident then it had to satisfy certain qualifications"
  1. The cause had to disable communications gradually without alerting too much concern initially?
  2. The cause had to explain how MH370 changed direction?
  3. Assuming decompression the cause has to explain why pilots with O2 Masks could not save the aircraft?
 
There are various reports around the 'net about this that it was reported in the China Times - eg here on Reddit

However there a search for U-Tapao (& various spellings) on the English edition of the china times gives no result - the place never features at all.

there is an article in the Chinese edition, but when I try to google-translate it it instantly flicks to another page - if anyone can figure out how to hold that translation long enough to read it i'd be grateful....

There is a naval base there and nearby is the Rayong radio station.

 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
But there is no connection established between the NSA denial and the one very dubious report of a mayday communication intercept, and the Fox stuff has no credibility.
The Orly Taitz press release you quoted makes claims of intercepted communication that aren't even backed up by the Fox transcripts.
So it's not an immature debate to point that out, it's very relevant.
The reasons for the FOI denial could be simply the fact it's an ongoing criminal investigation, or that they are investigating *possible* terrorist connections, which would be imprudent to disclose right now.
Of course they know more than they are telling us as they are investigating and have access to information we don't.
Or maybe they know exactly what happened and are covering up, but that requires more evidence than just the FOI denial.
 
....

....More over, even if the US didn't want to share its technology or reveal its secrets they have plenty of means to do so without giving up its secrets. Like a tip to a reporter or an unconfirmed report, or a statement from a withdrawn identity.

I could conceive that leaking the fact to McInerney could be that tip you spoke of.

McInerney is a known loose cannon.
 
But there is no connection established between the NSA denial and the one very dubious report of a mayday communication intercept, and the Fox stuff has no credibility.
The Orly Taitz press release you quoted makes claims of intercepted communication that aren't even backed up by the Fox transcripts.
So it's not an immature debate to point that out, it's very relevant.
The reasons for the FOI denial could be simply the fact it's an ongoing criminal investigation, or that they are investigating *possible* terrorist connections, which would be imprudent to disclose right now.
Of course they know more than they are telling us as they are investigating and have access to information we don't.
Or maybe they know exactly what happened and are covering up, but that requires more evidence than just the FOI denial.

Beyond conjecture that MH370 flew west through the Straits of Malacca what evidence is there of any criminal act?

The radar target spotted on Butterworth's primary radar was originally claimed to have flown IGARI-VAMPI-GIVAL-IGREX. Now they say it flew IGARI-Penang-VAMPI-MEKAR.

The story keeps changing and evidence is not forthcoming to quench doubts. The fact McInerney has many contacts and sources within the US military intelligence community who leak to him is an open secret.

There is a paucity of hard evidence, but there is also an admission by administrations in both countries they are withholding information.

There is an impasse because there is not enough evidence to prove it but a whole lot of partial corroborations and insufficient evidence to disprove it.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Beyond conjecture that MH370 flew west through the Straits of Malacca what evidence is there of any criminal act?
There may turn out to be none, however that is what they've classified it for the time being, presumably because there were no clear indications of obvious accidental failure but there were certain things which *may* have suggested some intent.
 

TWCobra

Senior Member.
The sealed evidence is dated Mar 26, 2014 4:55 PM, two weeks after the incident. Whether or not it is still sealed is not known... My guess is that it is probably the evidence from the military radars that needed to be washed in order to be released.

The same with the FOIA request. The letter specifically states that the "existence or non-existence" of evidence is classified. Intelligence capabilities can be inferred by unfriendly states from either possibility. It is a "no comment" but the searchers would be informed of any transmission via non-attributable back door means that wouldn't broadcast the method it was gathered.... Or wasn't.

Simon, once again.. Your theories are based on very dubious sources that you don't seem to believe need verification. Most of it is uncorroborated. Most of it is old and discredited. My advice is to go back to square one, review what is known now rather than what was speculated in the media frenzy after the event, and adjust what you believe happened from there.
 

Jason

Senior Member
Beyond conjecture that MH370 flew west through the Straits of Malacca what evidence is there of any criminal act?
Maybe the only evidence of a criminal act could be the US government's decision to seal its information about MH370. Or perhaps the US government wants that story to be at the forefront to shape popular opinion and thats why they sealed their information. I guess we will never know, but the one thing we do know is the search area of 110 square miles has no plane in it at the bottom of the sea floor. So now what? Where do we look, and if we have to look somewhere else does that Inmarsat was wrong? Shouldn't the US government and its allies share what ever information they might have to give these families some closure. 3 US citizens died on that plane as well.
 

Jason

Senior Member
The sealed evidence is dated Mar 26, 2014 4:55 PM, two weeks after the incident. Whether or not it is still sealed is not known... My guess is that it is probably the evidence from the military radars that needed to be washed in order to be released.
That makes sense TW but even if they wash over their sealed evidence it doesn't mean they will share it. They could've obviously shared information they had when the events were occuring by word of mouth without devulging any of its military secrets. I'm gona use this analogy and I know the two have nothing to do with each other, but remember Sadam Hussein and his WMD's. He wanted the world and more importantly Iran to believe he had them so he could deter them. Perhaps the same thing could be happening here, where the US wants the world to think or more importantly China and N Korea that the US has surveilance capabilities in the area. So they sealed documents to infer this ability. I honestly can't see the US witholding information about this plane or its passengers if it meant finding the plane or its last known whereabouts.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
My thought has always been that there probably is more known about the ultimate path of this flight and that that data was acquired by classified means, like satellite photos.
 

Jason

Senior Member
My thought has always been that there probably is more known about the ultimate path of this flight and that that data was acquired by classified means, like satellite photos.
Do you think or anyone thinks the US might have satallite capabilities that can actually track aircraft? Wouldn't that be like finding a needle in a haystack. More over, do you think the US with all of its technology and billions of dollars spent on it have the ability to record the skies over earth, or along certain parallels (like the latitudinal lines across the US, Canada, and Mexico, and since the satellites have to orbit earth they perhaps record images along those parallels across the entire planet), so that if something terroristic happens they have the ability to go sift through these recordings to determine its ORIGIN.
 

Jason

Senior Member
How much attention would those satellites be paying to the Indian Ocean?
At first thought I would say not much attention is paid to the Indian Ocean, but then the NSA thing is still fresh in the back of my mind. If they have the capability of recording every text, phone call and email in the US and most of the world, what's a little extra data gonna matter. Perhaps they already have the ability to surveil the entire planet, and maybe it was set up as an early warning system against ballistic nukes, but over the years with advances in technology these satellites are capable of finer detail. Who knows, I certainly don't
 
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