• MH370 speculation has become excessive recently. Metabunk is not a forum for creating theories by speculation. It's a forum for examining claims, and seeing if they hold up. Please respect this and keep threads on-topic. There are many other forums where speculation is welcome.

MH370 Preliminary Report Released - Full Text and Files

Jason said:
I can't and don't want to believe that the US government could be so heinous and noncaring about human life that it wouldn't disclose its secrets if it meant helping in the discovery of this plane.
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I'm pretty sure that it was assumed that all lives have been lost by the time of the request.
 
TWCobra said:
Simon, the list of your poorly sourced/not credible/fictional leads is growing. For anyone to take you seriously, I feel you need to step back and verify that everything you use is reported by at least two independent, credible sources.

Now, you probably don't trust the Malaysian govt to be 100% forthcoming and I agree with you on that, but quoting beforeitnews in support of these theories doesn't help anyone's credibility.
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OT: TW Cobra or any pilot, the general answers one of Sean's questions about fuel.
External Quote:
HANNITY: My first question was, because this was a relatively short flight from Malaysia to Beijing, usually they don't fill an airplane, they don't maximize the fuel capability on a shorter flight because it means they don't want to land with all that fuel. For this flight to take place to Pakistan, my first thought, would they have had the fuel capacity, because that seems to be at the maximum level -- distance level of that aircraft?

MCINERNEY: That's a very good question, Sean. As it turns out, we got the last ping seven hours after takeoff. For whatever reason, they apparently had put more fuel into it. It may be there standard practice, so they don't have to buy fuel in Beijing, it may be more expensive, I don't know. But I'm taking the data that says they got a ping -- their last ping was seven hours after.
My question was did flight MH 370 have enough fuel to fly this distance because Sean states that flights that are this short usually only fly with enough fuel so they don't have to land with alot of fuel on board. The General makes a comment like, for what ever reason they fueled up more than they should've because the last handshake was 7hrs later. So we know there was obviously enough fuel for the flight to last that long, but my question is; Should this flight from Malaysia to Bejing have had enough fuel on board to fly this long to begin with. Is it customary for planes to carry that much in excess, or is it not excess? Thanks
 
Landru said:
Yeah my mistake.
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Hey, I'm not testifying that Orly has always been a chick...

Screen Shot 2014-05-19 at 7.18.03 PM.png
 
External Quote:
As it turns out, we got the last ping seven hours after takeoff.
I don't know if this means the plane was necessarily in the air at that last ping? He's constructing his theory around that being the definite case.
 
Pete Tar said:
External Quote:
As it turns out, we got the last ping seven hours after takeoff.
I don't know if this means the plane was necessarily in the air at that last ping? He's constructing his theory around that being the definite case.
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Isn't it a matter of fact now since the Inmarsat data was released.
 
I don't know Malaysian Airlines fuel policy, however standard reserves generally give around one hours flying in excess of the flight time. On top of that, some airlines require a full alternate, which is enough fuel to do an approach, go around and fly to another airport and land with statutory reserves. On top of that there may be holding fuel requirements plus Captains may add discretionary fuel.

So to answer you question, having enough fuel to fly for seven hours on a sector like this one is IMHO, not unusual.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_McInerney
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Military career[edit]
External Quote:

After graduating from the academy in June 1959, he was commissioned as a second lieutenant in theUnited States Army. He then joined the Air Force, and completed initial pilot training at Bartow Air Base,Florida, and Laredo Air Force Base, Texas, in November 1960. McInerney was assigned to Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, and later to Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada, for advanced gunnery training. His first operational assignment was in October 1961 with the 476th Tactical Fighter Squadron, flying F-104s atGeorge Air Force Base, California. There he took part in the Berlin and Cuban crises in 1962, flying escort missions in the West Berlin Air Corridor and escort reconnaissance missions over Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis. In April 1963 he was one of the first forward air controllers assigned to South Vietnam with a Vietnamese army division.

Upon his return to the United States in April 1964 he was assigned to the Tactical Air Warfare Center,Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, as an F-4C aircraft commander. In February 1966 he attended the F-4 Fighter Weapons School, Nellis Air Force Base, where he remained as an instructor with various F-4 assignments in the Weapons School and the Tactical Fighter Weapons Center, Test and Evaluation Division. Also, he participated in two Southeast Asia deployments as introduction team chief, bringing the F-4D and F-4E into combat.

McInerney volunteered for a fourth tour in Southeast Asia and served with the 469th Tactical Fighter Squadron, Korat Royal Thai Air Force Base, Thailand, from February until August 1969. After completing the Armed Forces Staff College in February 1970, he was transferred to the Directorate of Operational Requirements, Air Force headquarters. During this assignment he participated in many high-level study groups on the Middle East, air-to-air missile requirements and the F-15 advanced air superiority fighter.

Upon graduation from National War College in July 1973, McInerney was assigned to the 58th Tactical Fighter Training Wing, Luke Air Force Base, as F-104 and F-5 director of operations. He was primarily responsible for German F-104 training and the F-5E Military Assistance Program. In August 1974 he became the air attache to the U.S. Embassy in London. There he worked for three different ambassadors, assisting them in changing U.S. policy toward the multi-role combat aircraft, and increased standardization with European aerospace and North Atlantic Treaty Organization air forces.

From November 1976 until October 1977 he was vice commander of the 20th Tactical Fighter Wing, Royal Air Force Station Upper Heyford, England. McInerney then became military assistant to Ambassador Robert W. Komer, the adviser to the secretary of defense on North Atlantic Treaty Organization affairs. In this capacity, he assisted in developing the organization's long-term defense program, which was announced at the 1978 Washington Summit. In March 1979, McInerney became commander of the 3rd Tactical Fighter Wing, Clark Air Base, Philippines, and was deeply involved in implementing the base agreement that placed Clark Air Base under Philippine sovereignty.

In February 1981 he was assigned as commander of the 313th Air Division, Kadena Air Base, Japan. McInerney then served as deputy chief of staff for operations and intelligence, Headquarters Pacific Air Forces, Hickam Air Force Base, Hawaii, from June 1983 to July 1985, when he became commander of3rd Air Force, Royal Air Force Station Mildenhall, England. In October 1986, McInerney was assigned as vice commander in chief, Headquarters U.S. Air Forces in Europe, Ramstein Air Base, West Germany.

He became commander of Alaskan Air Command, Alaskan NORAD Region, and Joint Task Force Alaska in May 1988. McInerney assumed command of Alaskan Command upon its activation in July 1989, and became commander of 11th Air Force when Alaskan Air Command was redesignated 11th Air Force in August 1990.

McInerney's last active duty assignment was as Assistant vice chief of staff, Headquarters U.S. Air Force, Washington, D.C. He was responsible for the organization and administration of the Air Staff. Additionally, he served as deputy chairman of the Air Force Council and is the Air Force accreditation official for the Air Attache Corps. He retired from the Air Force on 1 July 1994.

Military awards and decorations[edit]
His major military awards and decorations include:

McInerney has also been awarded the Third Order of the Rising Sun by the Japanese government for outstanding service in enhancing relations between the US government and Japan.

McInerney was inducted into the Order of the Sword in July 1980. This award recognizes both military and civilian individuals for conspicuous and significant contributions to the welfare and prestige of the noncommissioned officer corps and the military establishment. He was the sixth Pacific Air Forces officer and the 63rd officer overall inducted into the order since the Air Force became a separate branch of the armed services in 1947.

Honestly, after reading this guy's credentials, how is it "possible" to doubt what he says, and why would he have an agenda when he's devoted his life to this nation. Makes you wonder
 
TWCobra said:
I don't know Malaysian Airlines fuel policy, however standard reserves generally give around one hours flying in excess of the flight time. On top of that, some airlines require a full alternate, which is enough fuel to do an approach, go around and fly to another airport and land with statutory reserves. On top of that there may be holding fuel requirements plus Captains may add discretionary fuel.

So to answer you question, having enough fuel to fly for seven hours on a sector like this one is IMHO, not unusual.
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Is it possible to find an airliners fuel policy online if I search, or is it a waste of time?
 
Most are similar to what I described and are usually commercial-in-confidence. From what I know of asian airlines, most carry full alternates.
 
Pete Tar said:
I thought the data *hadn't* been released, hence all the calls for it to be?
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I know there was the infamous chart Inmarsat released which showed the handshakes with a north/south track. I know they haven't released their data but the chart insinuates that the plane was airborne for over 7 hours.
 
TWCobra said:
Most are similar to what I described and are usually commercial-in-confidence. From what I know of asian airlines, most carry full alternates.
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Help me understand what a full alternative is. Does that mean if your flying from Malaysia to Bejing, your main tank would carry enough fuel to get there with added fuel for circling and waiting for landing, and then you would also have an alternative (reserve tank) so that you could fly to the nearest airport. Do they calculate the alternative based on airports in the vacinity of Bejing or what. Or do they just fill the alternative tank up, and if so how much fuel does an alternative carry which translates into how much flying time. thanks
 
Jason said:
Honestly, after reading this guy's credentials, how is it "possible" to doubt what he says, and why would he have an agenda when he's devoted his life to this nation. Makes you wonder
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Really? After reading things like this -

External Quote:

McInerney has also peddled the bizarre and thinly sourced theory, popularized by Frank Gaffney and other Islamophobic conspiracy theorists, that the Muslim Brotherhood has infiltrated the U.S. government in an effort to impose sharia law on the United States. In a January 2014 talk radio interview, McInerney declared, "We've got Muslim Brotherhood in the U.S. government today." Pressed to elaborate on the allegation, McInerney added, "I haven't got their names exactly but there's a list of them, at least 10 or 15 of them in the U.S. government." After echoing a thoroughly discredited charge against longtime Hillary Clinton aide Huma Abedin—insisting that "her parents are Muslim Brotherhood and "her intuitions are in that direction"—McInerney encouraged his hosts to consult Gaffney or likeminded conspiracy theorist Clare Lopez for further details.[9]

...
In early 2008 a New York Times investigative report identified McInerney as one of several dozen retired military officers—many of whom served as military analysts for various media outlets—who had received briefings by the Bush administration as part of a controversial and hitherto unknown Pentagon program to put positive spin on U.S. policies in the "war on terror."[11] According to the Times, the Pentagon program selected the officers, who also included Barry McCaffrey and Paul Vallely, because as retired military personnel they "often got more airtime than network reporters, and they were not merely explaining the capabilities of Apache helicopters. They were framing how viewers ought to interpret events. What is more, while the analysts were in the news media, they were not of the news media. They were military men, many of them ideologically in sync with the administration's neoconservative brain trust, many of them important players in a military industry anticipating large budget increases to pay for an Iraq war."[12] The Pentagon program, which began in 2002, ran until it was suspended in late April 2008, after the Times investigation broke.[13] Fox continued to use McInerney as an on-air analyst after the story's publication.

how is it possible to view anything he says as not being agenda-driven and of very questionable credibility?
 
Jason said:
I know there was the infamous chart Inmarsat released which showed the handshakes with a north/south track. I know they haven't released their data but the chart insinuates that the plane was airborne for over 7 hours.
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Okay then, I don't want to muddy the waters further, it was just half-remembered hearsay on my part that the final ping could have been sent after it was no longer in flight.
 
Pete Tar said:
Really? After reading things like this -

External Quote:

McInerney has also peddled the bizarre and thinly sourced theory, popularized by Frank Gaffney and other Islamophobic conspiracy theorists, that the Muslim Brotherhood has infiltrated the U.S. government in an effort to impose sharia law on the United States. In a January 2014 talk radio interview, McInerney declared, "We've got Muslim Brotherhood in the U.S. government today." Pressed to elaborate on the allegation, McInerney added, "I haven't got their names exactly but there's a list of them, at least 10 or 15 of them in the U.S. government." After echoing a thoroughly discredited charge against longtime Hillary Clinton aide Huma Abedin—insisting that "her parents are Muslim Brotherhood and "her intuitions are in that direction"—McInerney encouraged his hosts to consult Gaffney or likeminded conspiracy theorist Clare Lopez for further details.[9]

...
In early 2008 a New York Times investigative report identified McInerney as one of several dozen retired military officers—many of whom served as military analysts for various media outlets—who had received briefings by the Bush administration as part of a controversial and hitherto unknown Pentagon program to put positive spin on U.S. policies in the "war on terror."[11] According to the Times, the Pentagon program selected the officers, who also included Barry McCaffrey and Paul Vallely, because as retired military personnel they "often got more airtime than network reporters, and they were not merely explaining the capabilities of Apache helicopters. They were framing how viewers ought to interpret events. What is more, while the analysts were in the news media, they were not of the news media. They were military men, many of them ideologically in sync with the administration's neoconservative brain trust, many of them important players in a military industry anticipating large budget increases to pay for an Iraq war."[12] The Pentagon program, which began in 2002, ran until it was suspended in late April 2008, after the Times investigation broke.[13] Fox continued to use McInerney as an on-air analyst after the story's publication.

how is it possible to view anything he says as not being agenda-driven and of very questionable credibility?
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Agreed, didn't read that. But, he is one smart dude who has devoted his entire adult life to this nation. With that said, any military analyst in the media regardless of what alphabet news show they are on, are agenda driven. The fact of the matter is he also is privy to internal government chatter and probably is a source for Fox news because he has contacts still working in the military intelligence. I don't doubt for a second they don't try to shape our views, but I doubt a guy like this would blatantly tell a lie without being based on some truths or at least one truth. Sean Hannity was also trying to label this terrorism from the get go, so maybe that had some influence on how they wanted the general to appear on the show
 
Pete Tar said:
Okay then, I don't want to muddy the waters further, it was just half-remembered hearsay on my part that the final ping could have been sent after it was no longer in flight.
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That could be true too, but I think after using doppler shift and the handshakes they were able to determine the speed of the aircraft at each handshake. But don't quote me on that.
 
Simon Gunson said:
It seems to me that if an Attorney at the US Bar publicly cites a public TV broadcast, then that would be the equivalent of a notarised statement and acceptable in a court of law.
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Why on earth would you think that??

Orly Taitz has been caught lying to the court - although the judge decided not to sanction her for doing so as the matter was reasonably trivial and he wanted things to move along.

You seem to be placing the bar for evidence higher than a court would.
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I think you have no idea what evidence a court might accept - someone quoting a TV show cannot be more than 2nd hand evidence - hearsay!
 
Landru said:
Google Orly Taitz then return to this discussion. He is a birther.
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Not sure what you mean by a "birther" and it does not seem very relevant. On her blog she is a woman not a man.

http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/breakin...t-a-source-that-confirmed-it-yesterday-video/

I really don't care what her beliefs are and stated when I first mentioned her and the General that I did not subscribe to their beliefs. I note that the US Government and the NSA do not subscribe to their beliefs either, however the US Government did not deny they held information about MH370, but rather they admitted the fact but denied they were obliged to release it.

http://www.straitstimes.com/the-big...res-sealed-evidence-mh370-cannot-be-made-publ

There is confirmation from Malaysia that they too are keeping several matters secret:

External Quote:

Malaysia says there's sealed evidence on MH370 that cannot be made public

Published on Mar 26, 2014 4:55 PM

BEIJING - A Malaysian team have told relatives of Chinese passengers on board the missing Malaysia Airlines (MAS) flight MH370 that there was sealed evidence that cannot be made public, as they came under fire from the angry relatives at a briefing on Wednesday.

The sealed evidence included air traffic control radio transcript, radar data and airport security recordings...
 
Simon Gunson said:
Not sure what you mean by a "birther" and it does not seem very relevant.


[/EX]
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I don't usually recommend Wikipedia, but read Orly's page...all of the legal papers she's filed...she makes Alex Jones look like Abraham Lincoln. Her "birther" delusion is just the tip of a very disturbed iceberg.
 
MikeC said:
Why on earth would you think that??

I think you have no idea what evidence a court might accept - someone quoting a TV show cannot be more than 2nd hand evidence - hearsay!
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Why do I get the impression you would not accept your own father without a paternity test?

This is an immature debate like a bunch of kittens chasing their own tail. It is not my job to defend Orly Taitz. I do not subscribe to her beliefs but more importantly they are not relevant. All that is pertinent is that NSA declined a request for information about MH370.

The NSA declined a request under the Freedom Of Information Act to disclose information about MH370. If you have a further problem with that go and complain to the NSA.



853c09da36f1fc945f6c08e3d03c6083.jpg


77e4fa68b26bb9fe1deb4eb7aee319b3.jpg
 
Jason said:
So you're saying there is credence to the communications that were intercepted by the US or Malaysia, but you think they were a distress call and not terrorism related. The only concern I have over this, and I don't doubt your story about a cabin fire, catastrophic cabin damage, O2 induced....., but if the US or Malaysia did receive a distress call, and if two nations heard it, isn't it likely other near by countries heard it. Secondly, what would be the reason to not act on such a distress call (terrorism or catastrohpy)? Lastly, why would a nation or two nations keep that under wraps?
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Jason they did act on it. There was a huge search off Cambodia's Thao Chu island and Vietnam was telling the world that it was seen going down south of Phu Quoc Island, but in retrospect that was merely their interpretation of losing MH370's transponder return at BITOD.

I believe Malaysia's motive could be to conceal serious maintenance issues with the 2011 appointment of Azhari as CEO Maintenence. One can only speculate as to US motives but it may be that Malaysia plays an important role in US espionage within China. If that were the case the US government could be deferential to Malaysian sensitivities. For example the collapse of a pro-western right wing Government in Malaysia could be very damaging to US national interests. I note that Thailand is now under marshall law.

Yes I believe in the KISS principle. In the absence of any concrete evidence of a criminal act, or a criminal conspiracy, Occam's Razor suggests it was an inflight accident (albeit a very bizarre and puzzling one)

Occam's Razor also suggests if you accept it was an inflight accident then it had to satisfy certain qualifications"
  1. The cause had to disable communications gradually without alerting too much concern initially?
  2. The cause had to explain how MH370 changed direction?
  3. Assuming decompression the cause has to explain why pilots with O2 Masks could not save the aircraft?
 
MikeC said:
There are various reports around the 'net about this that it was reported in the China Times - eg here on Reddit

However there a search for U-Tapao (& various spellings) on the English edition of the china times gives no result - the place never features at all.

there is an article in the Chinese edition, but when I try to google-translate it it instantly flicks to another page - if anyone can figure out how to hold that translation long enough to read it i'd be grateful....
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There is a naval base there and nearby is the Rayong radio station.

44dd4d03ca04f015f5a13286ee15a5c0.jpg
 
But there is no connection established between the NSA denial and the one very dubious report of a mayday communication intercept, and the Fox stuff has no credibility.
The Orly Taitz press release you quoted makes claims of intercepted communication that aren't even backed up by the Fox transcripts.
So it's not an immature debate to point that out, it's very relevant.
The reasons for the FOI denial could be simply the fact it's an ongoing criminal investigation, or that they are investigating *possible* terrorist connections, which would be imprudent to disclose right now.
Of course they know more than they are telling us as they are investigating and have access to information we don't.
Or maybe they know exactly what happened and are covering up, but that requires more evidence than just the FOI denial.
 
Jason said:
....

....More over, even if the US didn't want to share its technology or reveal its secrets they have plenty of means to do so without giving up its secrets. Like a tip to a reporter or an unconfirmed report, or a statement from a withdrawn identity.
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I could conceive that leaking the fact to McInerney could be that tip you spoke of.

McInerney is a known loose cannon.
 
Pete Tar said:
But there is no connection established between the NSA denial and the one very dubious report of a mayday communication intercept, and the Fox stuff has no credibility.
The Orly Taitz press release you quoted makes claims of intercepted communication that aren't even backed up by the Fox transcripts.
So it's not an immature debate to point that out, it's very relevant.
The reasons for the FOI denial could be simply the fact it's an ongoing criminal investigation, or that they are investigating *possible* terrorist connections, which would be imprudent to disclose right now.
Of course they know more than they are telling us as they are investigating and have access to information we don't.
Or maybe they know exactly what happened and are covering up, but that requires more evidence than just the FOI denial.
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Beyond conjecture that MH370 flew west through the Straits of Malacca what evidence is there of any criminal act?

The radar target spotted on Butterworth's primary radar was originally claimed to have flown IGARI-VAMPI-GIVAL-IGREX. Now they say it flew IGARI-Penang-VAMPI-MEKAR.

The story keeps changing and evidence is not forthcoming to quench doubts. The fact McInerney has many contacts and sources within the US military intelligence community who leak to him is an open secret.

There is a paucity of hard evidence, but there is also an admission by administrations in both countries they are withholding information.

There is an impasse because there is not enough evidence to prove it but a whole lot of partial corroborations and insufficient evidence to disprove it.
 
Simon Gunson said:
Beyond conjecture that MH370 flew west through the Straits of Malacca what evidence is there of any criminal act?
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There may turn out to be none, however that is what they've classified it for the time being, presumably because there were no clear indications of obvious accidental failure but there were certain things which *may* have suggested some intent.
 
The sealed evidence is dated Mar 26, 2014 4:55 PM, two weeks after the incident. Whether or not it is still sealed is not known... My guess is that it is probably the evidence from the military radars that needed to be washed in order to be released.

The same with the FOIA request. The letter specifically states that the "existence or non-existence" of evidence is classified. Intelligence capabilities can be inferred by unfriendly states from either possibility. It is a "no comment" but the searchers would be informed of any transmission via non-attributable back door means that wouldn't broadcast the method it was gathered.... Or wasn't.

Simon, once again.. Your theories are based on very dubious sources that you don't seem to believe need verification. Most of it is uncorroborated. Most of it is old and discredited. My advice is to go back to square one, review what is known now rather than what was speculated in the media frenzy after the event, and adjust what you believe happened from there.
 
Simon Gunson said:
Beyond conjecture that MH370 flew west through the Straits of Malacca what evidence is there of any criminal act?
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Maybe the only evidence of a criminal act could be the US government's decision to seal its information about MH370. Or perhaps the US government wants that story to be at the forefront to shape popular opinion and thats why they sealed their information. I guess we will never know, but the one thing we do know is the search area of 110 square miles has no plane in it at the bottom of the sea floor. So now what? Where do we look, and if we have to look somewhere else does that Inmarsat was wrong? Shouldn't the US government and its allies share what ever information they might have to give these families some closure. 3 US citizens died on that plane as well.
 
TWCobra said:
The sealed evidence is dated Mar 26, 2014 4:55 PM, two weeks after the incident. Whether or not it is still sealed is not known... My guess is that it is probably the evidence from the military radars that needed to be washed in order to be released.
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That makes sense TW but even if they wash over their sealed evidence it doesn't mean they will share it. They could've obviously shared information they had when the events were occuring by word of mouth without devulging any of its military secrets. I'm gona use this analogy and I know the two have nothing to do with each other, but remember Sadam Hussein and his WMD's. He wanted the world and more importantly Iran to believe he had them so he could deter them. Perhaps the same thing could be happening here, where the US wants the world to think or more importantly China and N Korea that the US has surveilance capabilities in the area. So they sealed documents to infer this ability. I honestly can't see the US witholding information about this plane or its passengers if it meant finding the plane or its last known whereabouts.
 
My thought has always been that there probably is more known about the ultimate path of this flight and that that data was acquired by classified means, like satellite photos.
 
Hama Neggs said:
My thought has always been that there probably is more known about the ultimate path of this flight and that that data was acquired by classified means, like satellite photos.
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Do you think or anyone thinks the US might have satallite capabilities that can actually track aircraft? Wouldn't that be like finding a needle in a haystack. More over, do you think the US with all of its technology and billions of dollars spent on it have the ability to record the skies over earth, or along certain parallels (like the latitudinal lines across the US, Canada, and Mexico, and since the satellites have to orbit earth they perhaps record images along those parallels across the entire planet), so that if something terroristic happens they have the ability to go sift through these recordings to determine its ORIGIN.
 
MikeC said:
How much attention would those satellites be paying to the Indian Ocean?
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At first thought I would say not much attention is paid to the Indian Ocean, but then the NSA thing is still fresh in the back of my mind. If they have the capability of recording every text, phone call and email in the US and most of the world, what's a little extra data gonna matter. Perhaps they already have the ability to surveil the entire planet, and maybe it was set up as an early warning system against ballistic nukes, but over the years with advances in technology these satellites are capable of finer detail. Who knows, I certainly don't
 
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