MH17 Malaysian 777 Carrying 295 People Shot Down Over Ukraine

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The only strategic reason for any side to knowingly shoot down a passenger airline is to try and blame another side or bring in sanctions. Most likely just a tragic mistake.

Yes....unlikely, with all the focus on the region, anyone could "get away" with a false-flag sort of attempt, as in to pass blame onto another.

Oh, but facts and reason won't get in the way of people like A.J.
 
I wonder if this has the potential to bankrupt Malaysian Airlines?

Also, today is the anniversary of TWA 800.
 
Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was booked onto the "Daily Show with Jon Stewart" on 15 July....and near the end, mentioned Ukraine and Russian propaganda. Worth a think.....

LAST segment, at the very end, just before the last commercial break (and, before the "Moment of Zen").

http://www.hulu.com/watch/661693
 
I also wonder who will be getting sued over this. If it was a Russian buk system would that make them liable.
War crime laws can be kind of weird, but I've never heard of a weapon manufacturer or the country it's located in being held responsible for acts performed by buyers.

It's not like this is a highly identifiable weapon. These launchers are all over the hemisphere - all the former Soviet nations and allies have them, China an most of its current and former allies have them, Russia and China have both gifted them to their pet dictators over the years, and they're available to buy on the arms market (and Russian weapons are still the go-to for most of the world because they're cheap. For the price of one Abrams, you could have two to four T-90 tanks instead).


As for the earlier quest about whether or not the rebels would know how to use it: First, a great many of the rebels are former Ukrainian military or former Soviet military. Second, they received some degree of support from Russia. Russia has acknowledged sending equipment, and acknowledged that people entered Ukraine from Russia to support rebels. Ukraine and many outsiders claim those are actual Russian military, Russia says they may be former Russian or Soviet military but are not currently enlisted.

So, yes, it's entirely reasonable and to some degree expected that they would have people able to operate a weapon used by the various armies they formerly served in.
 
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I also find it fascinating that CNN of all media outlets are being cautious when discusses this downed plane, and seem somewhat unwanting to say it was shot down by a SAM. When 4 months ago they developed some of the most wildest CT's regarding MH370... So I applaud them for that. However, Fox on the other hand is already figuring out a way to blame Putin for the attack, however..
It's also being reported that Russian Separatist took over a Buk missile system on June 29th, by Russian Media.
 
I also find it fascinating that CNN of all media outlets are being cautious when discusses this downed plane, and seem somewhat unwanting to say it was shot down by a SAM. When 4 months ago they developed some of the most wildest CT's regarding MH370... So I applaud them for that. However, Fox on the other hand is already figuring out a way to blame Putin for the attack, however..
It's also being reported that Russian Separatist took over a Buk missile system on June 29th, by Russian Media.

CNN did not start their conspiracy theories the day of the disappearance.

Right now there's a fairly strong claim that it was Russian armed Ukrainian separatists who did it. CNN is covering that claim like everyone else:
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-crash-missile/index.html?hpt=hp_c2
 
Would Putin's plane show up on Flight Radar 24? can this be checked out?

Doubt it. As a "head of state", his flight would be a military flight (just as "Air Force One" is). These would be biased out of civilian scrutiny.

ETA: And, I just realized what 'some' people will do with that factoid!!

ETA (2)....even with AF-1, you CAN follow the airplane's progress....up to a point. ATC Live for instance. Civilian air-traffic-controllers KNOW how to handle these flights, as well as military ATC of course. Still, AF-1 must operate into civilian airports, on occasion.

They still have to use radio frequencies that are pertinent to the airport/ATC facility....whether VHF or UHF.
 
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I also find it fascinating that CNN of all media outlets are being cautious when discusses this downed plane, and seem somewhat unwanting to say it was shot down by a SAM. When 4 months ago they developed some of the most wildest CT's regarding MH370... So I applaud them for that.

It's still early. Right now, there's still a good chance we'll find out what really happened in the next few days, and nobody wants to be so wrong that they appear to be an alarmist. If there's still uncertainty in a week, get ready for the crazy train to derail. It was a good month before CNN started giving air time to the real crazy stuff like black holes and aliens.

However, Fox on the other hand is already figuring out a way to blame Putin for the attack, however..

I'm actually kind of surprised about this. For a while there, there was a strong camp on the right (not a large one, but front and center of the Fox News target demo) that just loved Putin because he was a, "real man's man" and silly stuff like that, as if riding a bear or looking good without a shirt makes you a better national leader.

It's also being reported that Russian Separatist took over a Buk missile system on June 29th, by Russian Media.

There was also a journalist who said she saw one earlier this month in the area, but was prevented from taking a picture.
 
For a while there, there was a strong camp on the right (not a large one, but front and center of the Fox News target demo) that just loved Putin because he was a, "real man's man" and silly stuff like that....

Yup, all aimed as a "smear" against the current U.S. administration. Pathetic, and transparent.

And ETA: Apologies, this veers OT....
 
and you are all right about some of the more outlandish ideas ALREADY floating around the comments on the infowars article.

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The_Exile18 minutes ago
Well with these new pic of a 777 I can now say with 100% certainty that flight 93 didn't happen.

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JG22 minutes ago
Is this real, I mean that's a lot of debris compared to the plane that crashed in Pa, and into the pentagon, must be faked. Well the presstitutes should have all the answers tonight just in time for the evening BS news.

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Here's video of the plane exploding once it hit the ground. If a plane was struck by a SAM wouldn't a smoke trail from the SAM be present in the sky as well, and if the plane was struck by a missile which caused it to crash, shouldn't we see evidence of that before it impacts the ground. Like a trail of smoke or debri on a trajectory towards where it crashed. Maybe it wasn't a missile
 
There is a photo of a portion of the fuselage, with a door...on the ground in Ukraine:

(I saw it online....now, cannot find it....) Sorry.
 

SeekWisdomToday26 minutes ago
I don't believe it. Pieces of the airplane everywhere?

Everybody knows by now that they usually disintegrate when shot or hit a wall.
Or no one ever seen the Flight 93 and Pentagon airplane powder?
They don't have pieces laying around like that. They put the pieces there.

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barry is weak and gay • 31 minutes ago
The world knows the evil demonic American government had EVERYTHING to do with this. That kenyan born muslum terrorist is trying very hard to start WW3 as fast as SHE can.

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Beez • 42 minutes ago
Flight 17, a Boeing 777 was shot down on 07 /17. You can't make this stuff up.
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I have to get off the site now before my brain melts.
 
If a plane was struck by a SAM wouldn't a some trail from the SAM be present in the sky as well...

NOT in that particular video. The video would have to been begun WHEN the SAM was fired.

Too much Hollywood influences our perception of reality, I'm afraid.
 
CNN did not start their conspiracy theories the day of the disappearance.

Right now there's a fairly strong claim that it was Russian armed Ukrainian separatists who did it. CNN is covering that claim like everyone else:
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-crash-missile/index.html?hpt=hp_c2
I was watching the actual News Channel, not their online stuff. The anchors IAnderson Cooper) weren't giving in to speculation, which I applauded them.
 
NOT in that particular video. The video would have to been begun WHEN the SAM was fired.

Too much Hollywood influences our perception of reality, I'm afraid.
But if the plane was on fire it should've left a distinct "trail" upon impact. Some have speculated, though, that it was a missile with a 150lb warhead that is a proximity blast war head. Meaning it doesn't impact the target and then explode, it explodes at a distance to the target and lets the shrapnel do the rest. If a plane was hit by a missile would it have caught on fire?
 
Buk system isn't shoulder held, we're talking about one of Russia's most sophisticated missile defense systems. It's used to defend against Tomahawks, smart bombs, missile attacks, and air threats.

Is this something the rebels would have or even know how to operate?

Yes. The rebels have been boasting for weeks now that they have captured Ukrainian SA-11 Buks. The SA-11 can be guided without radar using an optical tracker and laser ranging. Combine that with poor aircraft recognition and poor coverage of what is actually flying over their region then it is an accident waiting to happen.

Donetsk militia takes control of Ukrainian anti-air installation

The self-defense forces of Donetsk People’s Republic seized control of a Ukrainian anti-air military installation, RIA Novosti reports.

"The forces of Donetsk People’s Republic assumed control of A-1402 military base," the militia's representative said. According to him, it is an anti-aircraft missile forces facility equipped with Buk mobile surface-to-air missile systems

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_...trol-of-Ukrainian-anti-air-installation-1561/
 
But if the plane was on fire it should've left a distinct "trail" upon impact. Some have speculated, though, that it was a missile with a 150lb warhead that is a proximity blast war head. Meaning it doesn't impact the target and then explode, it explodes at a distance to the target and lets the shrapnel do the rest. If a plane was hit by a missile would it have caught on fire?

Based on your earlier question, I answered that "unless" one had video OF the missile launch location (on the ground) combined with the wreckage falling from the sky....no, there is no 'ground-based' video of this likely possible.

HOWEVER.....the U.S. military VERY LIKELY has satellite imagery of this...and as I mentioned previously, the 'public" disclosure of U.S. military satellite surveillance capabilities will NOT happen. ONLY what would be considered 'de-classified' might come out. A LOT will happen "back-door", here....a LOT!!!
 
Based on your earlier question, I answered that "unless" one had video OF the missile launch location (on the ground) combined with the wreckage falling from the sky....no, there is no 'ground-based' video of this likely possible.

HOWEVER.....the U.S. military VERY LIKELY has satellite imagery of this...and as I mentioned previously, the 'public" disclosure of U.S. military satellite surveillance capabilities will NOT happen. ONLY what would be considered 'de-classified' might come out. A LOT will happen "back-door", here....a LOT!!!
FOX news just announced they had confirmation that a rocket did indeed take down the Malaysian MA17. Sad, really sad, especially with the added news of Israel starting thier ground offensive.
 
FOX news just announced they had confirmation that a rocket did indeed take down the Malaysian MA17. Sad, really sad, especially with the added news of Israel starting thier ground offensive.

This has been reported all day, now. MY point is that there will be no "convenient" video.

This is a Hollywood misconception.

EDIT....just as planets that "blow up" in Hollywood films make a sound (in the vacuum of space) AND the sound somehow "travels" faster than the speed of light!
 
It was speculated all day, but government officials recently confirmed the speculation..

Yes, but to re-iterate:

A "SAM" could be fired from ANY location, and still target the airplane in flight. Within a circular radius.

This is why there may not be a video "from the ground POV".

U.S. surveillance satellite imagery OF the area....likely highly classified....MIGHT give answers, after review....but unless cleared, WE will only see the de-classified results.
 
Buk system isn't shoulder held, we're talking about one of Russia's most sophisticated missile defense systems. It's used to defend against Tomahawks, smart bombs, missile attacks, and air threats.

Is this something the rebels would have or even know how to operate?
There have been reports hat they have some of these systems - and if it is shown the a/c was shot down (seems pretty likely to me) then the big question is whether the system was captured from Ukrainian stocks, or supplied from over the border in Russia.

as I understand it an air defence system like this would know about civil airliners if it was part of a national integrated system - they would receive civil ATC "squawk" data. But if you had one on its own, drove it into a paddock and turned on eth radar then all you would get is a "blip" - and that sounds like a credible scenario for rebel possession and use.
 
As the actor who played the Admiral in the Hunt for Red October said, "this is going to get out of control and people are going to die". Seems like it is happening. Hopefully everyone stands down to let reasonable minds take center stage
 
Just waking up to this. 27 Aussies on board. Unbelievable. 20/20 hindsight here but if intelligence agencies were aware of a sophisticated SAM system being in the wrong hands, then Ukraine should have been a flight planning no-go zone.
 
Not too mention, the russian separatists also when online and claimed they just shot down a Ukranian Cargo plane literally when the Malaysian plane went missing, as per Shepard on Fox news. Then he reported it was taken down from their site or FB page, (I forget), and said it was an error. So it seems the russian separatist might have already claimed responsibility...


A post on the VKontakte social networking service apparently from Igor Girkin, commander of the Donbass People's Militia, acknowledged shooting down an aircraft at approximately the same time in approximately this location, claiming it was a Ukrainian military An-26 transport plane, and linking to video of smoking wreckage of the 777. This post was deleted later in the day.[36][37] According to Google Maps, Rassypnoye (where Girkin claims to have shot down the plane) is 6km from Hrabove, where MH17 crashed.
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So the next logical question is who benefits from this tragedy?

I don't know if that is really the next logical question. It is if you're constructing a conspiracy theory, but if you entertain this was just a tragic mistake, the question of 'who benefits' isn't logically connected to 'who actually did it?'
 
Just waking up to this. 27 Aussies on board. Unbelievable. 20/20 hindsight here but if intelligence agencies were aware of a sophisticated SAM system being in the wrong hands, then Ukraine should have been a flight planning no-go zone.

It IS a tragic thing. Sorry for the Aussies, the Dutch....well EVERYONE on-board. What a tragic waste in a pointless border dispute.....

.... then Ukraine should have been a flight planning no-go zone.

Agreed....but....this flight was JUST ABOUT TO LEAVE Ukraine airspace...and enter Russian airspace.

As I said before....(About time for Putin to be "brought down").....
 
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