WeedWhacker
Senior Member
Yes....unlikely, with all the focus on the region, anyone could "get away" with a false-flag sort of attempt, as in to pass blame onto another.
Oh, but facts and reason won't get in the way of people like A.J.
MH17 Malaysian 777 Carrying 295 People Shot Down Over Ukraine
- Thread starter ConspiracyAtheist
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Yes....unlikely, with all the focus on the region, anyone could "get away" with a false-flag sort of attempt, as in to pass blame onto another.
Oh, but facts and reason won't get in the way of people like A.J.
Jason
Senior Member
So the next logical question is who benefits from this tragedy?
WeedWhacker
Senior Member
THAT is very interesting.
Jason
Senior Member
I also wonder who will be getting sued over this. If it was a Russian buk system would that make them liable.
WeedWhacker
Senior Member
Just "spooky"....but, still I expect, coincidence.
WeedWhacker
Senior Member
Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was booked onto the "Daily Show with Jon Stewart" on 15 July....and near the end, mentioned Ukraine and Russian propaganda. Worth a think.....
LAST segment, at the very end, just before the last commercial break (and, before the "Moment of Zen").
http://www.hulu.com/watch/661693
LAST segment, at the very end, just before the last commercial break (and, before the "Moment of Zen").
http://www.hulu.com/watch/661693
Hevach
Senior Member.
War crime laws can be kind of weird, but I've never heard of a weapon manufacturer or the country it's located in being held responsible for acts performed by buyers.
It's not like this is a highly identifiable weapon. These launchers are all over the hemisphere - all the former Soviet nations and allies have them, China an most of its current and former allies have them, Russia and China have both gifted them to their pet dictators over the years, and they're available to buy on the arms market (and Russian weapons are still the go-to for most of the world because they're cheap. For the price of one Abrams, you could have two to four T-90 tanks instead).
As for the earlier quest about whether or not the rebels would know how to use it: First, a great many of the rebels are former Ukrainian military or former Soviet military. Second, they received some degree of support from Russia. Russia has acknowledged sending equipment, and acknowledged that people entered Ukraine from Russia to support rebels. Ukraine and many outsiders claim those are actual Russian military, Russia says they may be former Russian or Soviet military but are not currently enlisted.
So, yes, it's entirely reasonable and to some degree expected that they would have people able to operate a weapon used by the various armies they formerly served in.
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Jason
Senior Member
I also find it fascinating that CNN of all media outlets are being cautious when discusses this downed plane, and seem somewhat unwanting to say it was shot down by a SAM. When 4 months ago they developed some of the most wildest CT's regarding MH370... So I applaud them for that. However, Fox on the other hand is already figuring out a way to blame Putin for the attack, however..
It's also being reported that Russian Separatist took over a Buk missile system on June 29th, by Russian Media.
It's also being reported that Russian Separatist took over a Buk missile system on June 29th, by Russian Media.
CNN did not start their conspiracy theories the day of the disappearance.
Right now there's a fairly strong claim that it was Russian armed Ukrainian separatists who did it. CNN is covering that claim like everyone else:
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-crash-missile/index.html?hpt=hp_c2
WeedWhacker
Senior Member
Not surprising, at all!!
Efftup
Senior Member.
Infowars isn;t throwing blame or False flag around yet, but in the comments, people have suggested they were trying to shoot down Putin: http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/
Would Putin's plane show up on Flight Radar 24? can this be checked out?
Would Putin's plane show up on Flight Radar 24? can this be checked out?
WeedWhacker
Senior Member
Doubt it. As a "head of state", his flight would be a military flight (just as "Air Force One" is). These would be biased out of civilian scrutiny.
ETA: And, I just realized what 'some' people will do with that factoid!!
ETA (2)....even with AF-1, you CAN follow the airplane's progress....up to a point. ATC Live for instance. Civilian air-traffic-controllers KNOW how to handle these flights, as well as military ATC of course. Still, AF-1 must operate into civilian airports, on occasion.
They still have to use radio frequencies that are pertinent to the airport/ATC facility....whether VHF or UHF.
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Hevach
Senior Member.
It's still early. Right now, there's still a good chance we'll find out what really happened in the next few days, and nobody wants to be so wrong that they appear to be an alarmist. If there's still uncertainty in a week, get ready for the crazy train to derail. It was a good month before CNN started giving air time to the real crazy stuff like black holes and aliens.
I'm actually kind of surprised about this. For a while there, there was a strong camp on the right (not a large one, but front and center of the Fox News target demo) that just loved Putin because he was a, "real man's man" and silly stuff like that, as if riding a bear or looking good without a shirt makes you a better national leader.
There was also a journalist who said she saw one earlier this month in the area, but was prevented from taking a picture.
WeedWhacker
Senior Member
Yup, all aimed as a "smear" against the current U.S. administration. Pathetic, and transparent.
And ETA: Apologies, this veers OT....
Efftup
Senior Member.
and you are all right about some of the more outlandish ideas ALREADY floating around the comments on the infowars article.
[EX
[EX
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Simon Phoenix • 33 minutes ago
This is fake. This is the original missing plane. False flag BS. I suspect
The_Exile • 18 minutes ago
Well with these new pic of a 777 I can now say with 100% certainty that flight 93 didn't happen.
JG • 22 minutes ago
Is this real, I mean that's a lot of debris compared to the plane that crashed in Pa, and into the pentagon, must be faked. Well the presstitutes should have all the answers tonight just in time for the evening BS news.
Jason
Senior Member
Here's video of the plane exploding once it hit the ground. If a plane was struck by a SAM wouldn't a smoke trail from the SAM be present in the sky as well, and if the plane was struck by a missile which caused it to crash, shouldn't we see evidence of that before it impacts the ground. Like a trail of smoke or debri on a trajectory towards where it crashed. Maybe it wasn't a missile
WeedWhacker
Senior Member
There is a photo of a portion of the fuselage, with a door...on the ground in Ukraine:
(I saw it online....now, cannot find it....) Sorry.
(I saw it online....now, cannot find it....) Sorry.
Efftup
Senior Member.
SeekWisdomToday • 26 minutes ago
I don't believe it. Pieces of the airplane everywhere?
Everybody knows by now that they usually disintegrate when shot or hit a wall.
Or no one ever seen the Flight 93 and Pentagon airplane powder?
They don't have pieces laying around like that. They put the pieces there.
barry is weak and gay • 31 minutes ago
The world knows the evil demonic American government had EVERYTHING to do with this. That kenyan born muslum terrorist is trying very hard to start WW3 as fast as SHE can.
I have to get off the site now before my brain melts.
Beez • 42 minutes ago
Flight 17, a Boeing 777 was shot down on 07 /17. You can't make this stuff up.
goodfite Beez • 17 minutes ago
It's like rolling a 7 every time you roll the dice.
zlop Beez • 30 minutes ago
Similar to MH370, it was scripted.
Ellen B Beez • 37 minutes ago
When you add up 2014 you have another 7.
WeedWhacker
Senior Member
NOT in that particular video. The video would have to been begun WHEN the SAM was fired.
Too much Hollywood influences our perception of reality, I'm afraid.
WeedWhacker
Senior Member
Yup...as predicted, the nonsense begins......
Jason
Senior Member
I was watching the actual News Channel, not their online stuff. The anchors IAnderson Cooper) weren't giving in to speculation, which I applauded them.CNN did not start their conspiracy theories the day of the disappearance.
Right now there's a fairly strong claim that it was Russian armed Ukrainian separatists who did it. CNN is covering that claim like everyone else:
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-crash-missile/index.html?hpt=hp_c2
Jason
Senior Member
Is this it;
Here's the URL since it works on youtube but not here; www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQowVLOo4aQ
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David
Member
Live Russian tv http://lifenews.ru/watch-live
Jason
Senior Member
But if the plane was on fire it should've left a distinct "trail" upon impact. Some have speculated, though, that it was a missile with a 150lb warhead that is a proximity blast war head. Meaning it doesn't impact the target and then explode, it explodes at a distance to the target and lets the shrapnel do the rest. If a plane was hit by a missile would it have caught on fire?
TEEJ
Senior Member.
Yes. The rebels have been boasting for weeks now that they have captured Ukrainian SA-11 Buks. The SA-11 can be guided without radar using an optical tracker and laser ranging. Combine that with poor aircraft recognition and poor coverage of what is actually flying over their region then it is an accident waiting to happen.
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_...trol-of-Ukrainian-anti-air-installation-1561/
WeedWhacker
Senior Member
I think so....I saw still images, but this will do.
WeedWhacker
Senior Member
Based on your earlier question, I answered that "unless" one had video OF the missile launch location (on the ground) combined with the wreckage falling from the sky....no, there is no 'ground-based' video of this likely possible.
HOWEVER.....the U.S. military VERY LIKELY has satellite imagery of this...and as I mentioned previously, the 'public" disclosure of U.S. military satellite surveillance capabilities will NOT happen. ONLY what would be considered 'de-classified' might come out. A LOT will happen "back-door", here....a LOT!!!
Jason
Senior Member
FOX news just announced they had confirmation that a rocket did indeed take down the Malaysian MA17. Sad, really sad, especially with the added news of Israel starting thier ground offensive.
WeedWhacker
Senior Member
This has been reported all day, now. MY point is that there will be no "convenient" video.
This is a Hollywood misconception.
EDIT....just as planets that "blow up" in Hollywood films make a sound (in the vacuum of space) AND the sound somehow "travels" faster than the speed of light!
Jason
Senior Member
It was speculated all day, but government officials recently confirmed the speculation..
WeedWhacker
Senior Member
Yes, but to re-iterate:
A "SAM" could be fired from ANY location, and still target the airplane in flight. Within a circular radius.
This is why there may not be a video "from the ground POV".
U.S. surveillance satellite imagery OF the area....likely highly classified....MIGHT give answers, after review....but unless cleared, WE will only see the de-classified results.
MikeC
Closed Account
There have been reports hat they have some of these systems - and if it is shown the a/c was shot down (seems pretty likely to me) then the big question is whether the system was captured from Ukrainian stocks, or supplied from over the border in Russia.Buk system isn't shoulder held, we're talking about one of Russia's most sophisticated missile defense systems. It's used to defend against Tomahawks, smart bombs, missile attacks, and air threats.
Is this something the rebels would have or even know how to operate?
as I understand it an air defence system like this would know about civil airliners if it was part of a national integrated system - they would receive civil ATC "squawk" data. But if you had one on its own, drove it into a paddock and turned on eth radar then all you would get is a "blip" - and that sounds like a credible scenario for rebel possession and use.
David Coulter
Senior Member.
As the actor who played the Admiral in the Hunt for Red October said, "this is going to get out of control and people are going to die". Seems like it is happening. Hopefully everyone stands down to let reasonable minds take center stage
Bill
Senior Member.
That is the official story being reported to the Russian public.
Pete Tar
Senior Member.
A post on the VKontakte social networking service apparently from Igor Girkin, commander of the Donbass People's Militia, acknowledged shooting down an aircraft at approximately the same time in approximately this location, claiming it was a Ukrainian military An-26 transport plane, and linking to video of smoking wreckage of the 777. This post was deleted later in the day.[36][37] According to Google Maps, Rassypnoye (where Girkin claims to have shot down the plane) is 6km from Hrabove, where MH17 crashed.
I don't know if that is really the next logical question. It is if you're constructing a conspiracy theory, but if you entertain this was just a tragic mistake, the question of 'who benefits' isn't logically connected to 'who actually did it?'
WeedWhacker
Senior Member
It IS a tragic thing. Sorry for the Aussies, the Dutch....well EVERYONE on-board. What a tragic waste in a pointless border dispute.....
Agreed....but....this flight was JUST ABOUT TO LEAVE Ukraine airspace...and enter Russian airspace.
As I said before....(About time for Putin to be "brought down").....
Pete Tar
Senior Member.
And likely to lead to ideas the 'Elite' were punishing Malaysia for some failure, perhaps to do with mh370, or not falling in line on some policy.
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