Max and the WhistleBlower

David Fraser

Senior Member.
Unfortunately I don't really think the hoax is going to help those people. It's a TL;DR thing. It's just stirred things up.
Did you not think on deleting the admission Mick? When I read it that was my first thought especially given the claims had been so effectively debunked.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Metabunk, for lack of a viable alternative, has become a focus for these believers.
Even if the hoaxer had not posted here, Metabunk would have been implicated by some anyway.
While it is inconvenient, what is not revealed is the many who see the name and come here to find an oasis of sanity, and leave feeling less afraid.
The tiny amount of true believers who express outrage are vastly outnumbered by those who are comforted.
"They" will never give us any good publicity. This time last year they dared not even mention the word, over the past year they were forced to address us because virtually any serach on their subjects now brings up a link. They have been seeking a Quixotic "critical mass" when they expected revelations of biblical proportions
that will never come. While they dithered, our critical mass has begun to swell and this is how they dealt with it - two minutes of hate followed by a "Pep Rally".
 

JRBids

Senior Member.

What story is Scott Stevens saying Metabunk pulled? It's all still here.

On another note, this is from Suzanne Holmes, well known lurker and troll who has many alternate screen names. She lurks FB and metabunk and reports back to Russ Tanner. As most conspiracy believers do, she obviously did not read the entire episode, and is attributing the hoax to Metabunk or is just outright lying.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/40556352568/
"From "Chemtrails Awareness" page, and I couldn't have said it better......"The shills have become desperate in their attempts to discredit the Chemtrail community. Infiltrating, lying, and total deception is their way. This time, they posed as an insider in the chemtrail program, and produced FAKE documents and stories. Then, after the story is bought by a chemtrail activist, they expose themselves as liars, and they say it is to show us in this community how we "fall for anything" as long as it fits into what we already believe to be true. This kind of deception is inexcusable. It just shows the lengths they will go to deceive. Be careful out there, this group of disinfo agents thrives on spreading complete lies. NO matter what they do, they cannot stop the truth, and their OBVIOUS LIES just shows how LOW they are."
 

JRBids

Senior Member.
Metabunk, for lack of a viable alternative, has become a focus for these believers.

Madisonstar moon has told me that I am "tainted" because I post here. She asked me if I was illuminati or a Freemason. Anything to explain why I don't believe in what she and her "millions" of fellow believers do.
You either believe the conspiracy or you're part of it. Typical.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
Madison considers Mick to be some sort of arch-enemy and that was already her attitude before this latest event. I'm not sure anyone can predict or plan for reactions. It's just a given that "we" are the enemy and especially any figurehead or perceived leader like Mick. This thing is going to come to a head. It's inevitable.
 
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Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
What story is Scott Stevens saying Metabunk pulled? It's all still here.

On another note, this is from Suzanne Holmes, well known lurker and troll who has many alternate screen names. She lurks FB and metabunk and reports back to Russ Tanner. As most conspiracy believers do, she obviously did not read the entire episode, and is attributing the hoax to Metabunk or is just outright lying.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/40556352568/
"From "Chemtrails Awareness" page, and I couldn't have said it better......"The shills have become desperate in their attempts to discredit the Chemtrail community. Infiltrating, lying, and total deception is their way. This time, they posed as an insider in the chemtrail program, and produced FAKE documents and stories. Then, after the story is bought by a chemtrail activist, they expose themselves as liars, and they say it is to show us in this community how we "fall for anything" as long as it fits into what we already believe to be true. This kind of deception is inexcusable. It just shows the lengths they will go to deceive. Be careful out there, this group of disinfo agents thrives on spreading complete lies. NO matter what they do, they cannot stop the truth, and their OBVIOUS LIES just shows how LOW they are."

What else is new? It's built into their belief system. I think there is no way to avoid this sort of reaction.
 

FreiZeitGeist

Senior Member.
This aircrap link was posted on Max's wall a couple of hours ago. It's 404 not found now

http://aircrap.org/max-bliss-contacted-chemtrail-whistle-blower-beginning/338008/
Link is working again. They have made an update. And one link of the update goes to this thread.

Time for a screenshot, just to be shure, if this article will be editided again.



(Yellow markings done by me - and I am repeating the words Chemtrails CHEMTRAILS Whistleblower Max Bliss Debunk Metabunk HOAX, Max Bliss Chemtrails Whistleblower Hoax Fake FAKE! Fake!!!! - just to give the Bots searching here something to do) :)
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Did you not think on deleting the admission Mick? When I read it that was my first thought especially given the claims had been so effectively debunked.
I prefer just to be honest about the whole thing. So I added the disclaimer, explaining the extent of my involvement (none), and that of other people here (none that I know of). Deleting posts would just be seen as some kind of cover up.

The reaction to it seems ridiculous. But we have to remember that these are people whose entire life revolves around this belief system. They feel attacked. So they get defensive. It's perfectly understandable.
 

Ross Marsden

Senior Member.
Happened across this: http://beforeitsnews.com/chemtrails/2013/08/career-chemtrail-trolls-exposed-2431134.html

It's an attack article on Jay, first, but then moves on to Mick and Ross.
This is a fairly important concession, wrapped in an incorrect statement and preceded by a partially correct allegation.

I have a pretty ordinary BSc degree in mathematics from the University of Auckland, NZ.
About what I typically post, it has no impact because it addresses the core issue of what the trails are, whereas the so called evidence for aerosol spraying by jet aircraft does not.

I'm totally going to change my profile picture(s).
 

JFDee

Senior Member.
Okay, specifically, THAT guy, and others like him in their community who share that observable trait.
Maybe I should have elaborated - it's the implied assessment in the phrase "these people" (or the like) that I am talking about.

Imagine for a moment that you are a chemtrail believer and re-read the postings with different eyes. Are there any that you may perceive as a judgement about you as a person or as a member of a group?

Linking back to Strawman's post which essentially covers the same issue:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/max-and-the-whistleblower.2144/#post-59271
 
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Strawman

Senior Member.
This time, they posed as an insider in the chemtrail program, and produced FAKE documents and stories. Then, after the story is bought by a chemtrail activist, they expose themselves as liars, and they say it is to show us in this community how we "fall for anything" as long as it fits into what we already believe to be true. [...]NO matter what they do, they cannot stop the truth, and their OBVIOUS LIES just shows how LOW they are."
It's amazing how she fails to spot the contradiction. If the lies were so obvious, why did they fall for them? I don't want to condone the fake, but they should at least have walk out of it with a bit more self-awareness.
 

stars15k

New Member
I'm totally going to change my profile picture(s).[/ex]
 
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Strawman

Senior Member.
From the career debunkers piece, unedited:
Are they being serious? I don't even....

That piece actually has no information at all. No arguments, only ad hominems with (more than) a pinch of wanted poster.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
From the career debunkers piece, unedited:
Are they being serious? I don't even....

That piece actually has no information at all. No arguments, only ad hominems with (more than) a pinch of wanted poster.
Oh I don't know. I think it was accurate to say Ross has a shite looking beard on his profile picture.
 

stars15k

New Member
From the career debunkers piece, unedited:
Are they being serious? I don't even....

That piece actually has no information at all. No arguments, only ad hominems with (more than) a pinch of wanted poster.

The only "critical mass" reached is that of the exasperation debunkers share over this kind of thing. But it is typical. Most forums (without politeness clauses in TOS) become nothing of relevance and lots of calls of shill, disinfo agent, troll and attempts at insults of our intelligence, efforts and morals. Thank goodness for "rolling eyes" smilies. It goes by the (toned down a bit) rule my Grandpa taught me, "If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance (which no "chemtrail" believer has), drown them with male bovine excrement."
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
Given that Max appears to be deleting any comments off Youtube with regards to the hoax and has not made a "statement" what is the position if The Referee decides to post the rest of the communications on Metabunk?
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
The Beforeitsnews hit piece is most likely the work of Harold Saive. I get first billing because I fingered him correctly as the original instigator of the idea about TMA.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ma...s-airline-insider-speaks-out.2132/#post-59008

It is going to get worse, much worse. On a recent broadcast, Dane Wigington announced that his coworker Yvonne Nachtigal was creating a website specifically designed to target those they considered threats to the hoax. The site will lay out a case targeting supposed personal responsibility for what chemtrail believers have long been calling a "genocide". It will include contact points for individuals.

Essentially, Wigington is calling for a website which will be a "hit list" of people his followers should target for their fantasy. He seems particularly incensed about NASA's cloud identification site for school children. I will dig up the quote presently.
 
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Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Maybe I should have elaborated - it's the implied assessment in the phrase "these people" (or the like) that I am talking about.

Imagine for a moment that you are a chemtrail believer and re-read the postings with different eyes. Are there any that you may perceive as a judgement about you as a person or as a member of a group?

Linking back to Strawman's post which essentially covers the same issue:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/max-and-the-whistleblower.2144/#post-59271
Well if we are not to share our reactions and opinions here, then where?
Can we only talk if we have a verifiable fact or article to back up our opinion or make completely value-neutral statements?
We have human responses to this situation and it is natural to share them on a forum where we engage in talk about various topics.
 
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Ross Marsden

Senior Member.
The Beforeitsnews hit piece is most likely the work of Harold Saive. I get first billing because I fingered him correctly as the original instigator of the idea about TMA.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ma...s-airline-insider-speaks-out.2132/#post-59008

...
It is definitely Harold Saive. Up the top it says "By Hsaive", and there is a link to his "bio".
http://beforeitsnews.com/contributor/pages/10/958/bio.html
No doubt about it, Jay, that's our friend Harold.
 
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mrfintoil

Senior Member.
The Beforeitsnews hit piece is most likely the work of Harold Saive. I get first billing because I fingered him correctly as the original instigator of the idea about TMA.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ma...s-airline-insider-speaks-out.2132/#post-59008

It is going to get worse, much worse. On a recent broadcast, Dane Wigington announced that his coworker Yvonne Nachtigal was creating a website specifically designed to target those they considered threats to the hoax. The site will lay out a case targeting supposed personal responsibility for what chemtrail believers have long been calling a "genocide". It will include contact points for individuals.

Essentially, Wigington is calling for a website which will be a "hit list" of people his followers should target for their fantasy. He seems particularly incensed about NASA's cloud identification site for school children. I will dig up the quote presently.
When these people begin to talk about "hit lists" that's when I get more and more convinced that an open and honest debate MUST be made before these people do something really crazy.
The problem with believers of unrealistic conspiracy theories is that whatever they perceive as a solution won't change what they perceive as the problem. And because no efforts seem to produce a positive change for themselves (because the problem they perceive doesn't exist in reality) will force them to more and more desperate methods when nothing happens. It's basically an escalating state of paranoia, which can lead to range of mental illnesses, not least schizophrenia.

People need to be informed that there is another side to these things. But I know from first hand experience how effective this type of conspiranoia is, because long time ago I was once and unsuspectingly confronted with claims about Illuminati, something that freaked me out in a way that I could not think straight for some weeks. That's because I, at the time, basically had no intellectual means to question the claims. And in my desperate search for comforting news I accidentally stumbled upon sceptical (debunking) information. Perhaps if I encountered more conspiranoid sites first I would be one of them instead. Feels a bit scary to know how easily you can sink into the conspiracy bog if you are gullible.
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
http://chemtrailsplanet.net/2013/08...show-reveals-link-to-chemtrail-troll-network/
Wait, what? They must have left after 10 seconds as well.

It all seems very silly, putting up hyperbolic articles. Nobody came here to address the issue, as far as I know. I've got ONE email on the topic, and a couple of prods on Twitter and Facebook. It seems like this is a big deal for a small number of people.
 
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M Bornong

Senior Member.
http://chemtrailsplanet.net/2013/08...show-reveals-link-to-chemtrail-troll-network/
Wait, what? They must have left after 10 seconds as well.

It all seems very silly, putting up hyperbolic articles. Nobody came here to address the issue, as far as I know. I've got ONE email on the topic, and a couple of prods on Twitter and Facebook. It seems like this is a big deal for a small number of people.
Wait what? Mick, you are "nearly the last chemtrail skeptic alive?" It would take some time to study, but if you visit the Facebook chemtrail pages, the youtube pages, the Global March pages, it seems the few 10,000 of thousands are the only supporters of the "chemtrail" movement, certainly not a majority.
I thought Joe intruced all guests with the same cordiality, he only rolled his eyes, pursed his lips, etc. after the guest spoke.

I'd have to watch again, how much air time did you (Mick) get, how much time did Meghan, Scott, Michael, Billy, Nick, (who did I miss) to present their case?
 

M Bornong

Senior Member.
Yeah actually, I was really the only skeptic there, and did not get that much time.
Yeah, it didn't take very much time to debunk the whole idea. The other guests did most of the damage to themselves, as they usually do even without the TV editing.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
http://chemtrailsplanet.net/2013/08...show-reveals-link-to-chemtrail-troll-network/
Wait, what? They must have left after 10 seconds as well.

It all seems very silly, putting up hyperbolic articles. Nobody came here to address the issue, as far as I know. I've got ONE email on the topic, and a couple of prods on Twitter and Facebook. It seems like this is a big deal for a small number of people.
It's always astounding to see people just make stuff up and apparently to come to think it's true as they type it. I'm afraid this sort of thinking and action is what drives the chemtrail story. I don't see a good end to it.
 
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Strawman

Senior Member.
http://chemtrailsplanet.net/2013/08...show-reveals-link-to-chemtrail-troll-network/


MikeC says:
AUGUST 8, 2013 AT 9:32 PM


I looked at metabunk but there seems to be little or no response from “informed skywatchers” to his article about this there – and he’s usually not shy about allowing anyone to post and attacking them afterwards. Or are you talking about them posting somewhere else??
So now Mick has a record now, huh?

If Mick has a records and Harold fully expects Mick to delete comments, I bet he has make some screenshots to keep as proof. He would have.
 

mrfintoil

Senior Member.
I love the dramatic style of this description of the events.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
I love the dramatic style of this description of the events.
You mean his dramatic description of events which never happened?

Saive has now posted this:

http://chemtrailsplanet.net/2013/08...show-reveals-link-to-chemtrail-troll-network/

hsaive says:
AUGUST 9, 2013 AT 9:08 AM

"I read several yesterday with more coming in. If Mick took them down you won’t see them. I would not lie to you but Mick has a record."
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
hsaive says:
AUGUST 9, 2013 AT 9:08 AM

"I read several yesterday with more coming in. If Mick took them down you won’t see them. I would not lie to you but Mick has a record."
Rule #1- If a person has to say, "I would not lie to you but....".
It means they are lying to you.

Harold actually does have a record, it is public and documented.

We had a look at his rain water tests which showed poor methodology but normal levels of aluminum.
He came and demanded that we should stop. He never addressed any of the faults in his claims. He ran away and never came back:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/de...ida-test-positive-for-aluminum.313/#post-2695

So much for Harold. I'd like to say exactly what I think of what that shows about his character, but that would probably violate politeness policy.
H
e shows himself well enough. If he could "lay waste" to something, he would have. Instead he just tried to avoid the real issues altogether by exerting censorship of criticism.

I will debate Harold. Contact me, dude and we'll make some arrangements.
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
And if I took down these posts, why don't they just post the information they contain elsewhere?

I constantly invite corrections. If there's something wrong on metabunk.org, then they can point it out, and I'll correct it.

I know of zero outstanding requests for corrections.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
Still trying to help my buddy Max.
Posted to his blog, "Awaiting Moderation":
http://mrmaxbliss.wordpress.com/201...e-chemtrail-files/comment-page-1/#comment-248


I've determined that I need to become his best friend forever, and will seek to let him know everything that has been hidden by his misleaders.
I was just rereading his blog and it became clear where he gets his figure for 0.008 ug/l Al in rainwater. He has taken the upper figure 8 ug/m3 for air converted it to litres. However he fails to understand that the content of solids in rainwater is not directly proportional to what is in the air. I suggest he reads around "Rainwater Scavenging" as different types if precipitation will contain differing proportions of solids. I would suggest that a move to air sampling may be called for and maybe hire a sampler and set it up near a CEH/DEFRA system to validate their results (any interested group can do this)

I note he has addressed the TMA issue. However his claim now is that a 15% suspension of TMA in hexane is added at a proportion of 22% of the fuel. That means that fuel contains 3.3% TMA. Jay has already demonstrated that TMA will produce a lesser amount of Aluminium oxide therefore for every metric tonne of fuel burned less than 33kg of aluminium oxide will be produced. I would suggest that at that quantity it would not look like the long trails in the sky (I have no idea how much fuel is burned per mile).
 
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