Yes, in fact it was still illegal between married couples in 2003 in many states, but the Supreme Court struck it down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States
Check out the table there.
Isis/Osiris consipracy, sexual and occult symbology in art, crucifixion scenes
- Thread starter Mick West
- Start date
Yes, in fact it was still illegal between married couples in 2003 in many states, but the Supreme Court struck it down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States
Check out the table there.
Cairenn
Senior Member.
Yes the burden of being convicted does fall heavier on the poor. The state has access to prosecutors and to 'experts' (think the crime lab) to 'prove' their case. The poor person has a court appointed attorney that is getting a reduced fee for their 'service'. There is NO money to challenge the findings of the state. Often it is recommended that the accused accept a plea bargain for a lesser charge. Our criminal justice system would grind to a halt without the use of plea bargains.
The rich have the money to level the 'playing field' in court and when that happens, they win a lot.
The rich have the money to level the 'playing field' in court and when that happens, they win a lot.
Alhazred The Sane
Senior Member.
"I am unaware that sodomy was ever illegal between a male and female or husband and wife. I know it was frowned upon but was it ever illegal? Homosexuality requires that both parties be same sex. That was illegal and included 'cottaging laws' where merely soliciting was a crime. George Michael?"
Sodomy is sodomy, and whether between consenting married couples or not, it was illegal. It was this law that was used to persecute homosexuals, there was no law specific to them. I suspect you're conflating 'homosexual activity' (sodomy) with homosexuality. As I said, the same kind of laws also stated oral sex as being illegal. George Michael was done for for engaging in a lewd act. And driving under the influence.
Yes, I know the 3-strikes law is still prevalent, although in many states it is being repealed or amended. I mention California because this is where Bohemian Grove is located, and as such it falls under Californian law - unless the crime is federal. Drug use is not federal, drug trafficking is.
As for the rich getting off lightly, that's how it goes. I'm not in favour of it, I don't approve of it, I was merely pointing out that it is a global problem, and it is also one that has been with us ever since we invented hierarchies. Why should Bohemian Grove be singled out for special consideration?
Sodomy is sodomy, and whether between consenting married couples or not, it was illegal. It was this law that was used to persecute homosexuals, there was no law specific to them. I suspect you're conflating 'homosexual activity' (sodomy) with homosexuality. As I said, the same kind of laws also stated oral sex as being illegal. George Michael was done for for engaging in a lewd act. And driving under the influence.
Yes, I know the 3-strikes law is still prevalent, although in many states it is being repealed or amended. I mention California because this is where Bohemian Grove is located, and as such it falls under Californian law - unless the crime is federal. Drug use is not federal, drug trafficking is.
As for the rich getting off lightly, that's how it goes. I'm not in favour of it, I don't approve of it, I was merely pointing out that it is a global problem, and it is also one that has been with us ever since we invented hierarchies. Why should Bohemian Grove be singled out for special consideration?
SR1419
Senior Member.
Purely anecdotal...but worth noting...
I have met 2 different people who worked as wait-staff at Bohemian Grove and said it was nothing more than a bunch of rich guys drinking. They saw nothing untoward.
Of course, perhaps they were not privy to the late-night Molochanaliababysacrificeprostitute-fest....
Its also worth noting that some members/attendees are not rich and/or famous but local longtime members who have been attending for years.
Even members of the Grateful Dead have attended...upstanding citizens as they are they are hardly beacon's of World Power and machinations.
Jimmy Buffet is a member.
...and considering that the club is in a grove of trees in which owls are common and an indigenous species...it is logical they would accept that as their mascot.
It is even on the door to the clubhouse in San Francisco.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bohemian_Club_members
Her is Bob Wier of the Grateful Dead discussing his experience at Bohemian Grove:
I have met 2 different people who worked as wait-staff at Bohemian Grove and said it was nothing more than a bunch of rich guys drinking. They saw nothing untoward.
Of course, perhaps they were not privy to the late-night Molochanaliababysacrificeprostitute-fest....
Its also worth noting that some members/attendees are not rich and/or famous but local longtime members who have been attending for years.
Even members of the Grateful Dead have attended...upstanding citizens as they are they are hardly beacon's of World Power and machinations.
Jimmy Buffet is a member.
...and considering that the club is in a grove of trees in which owls are common and an indigenous species...it is logical they would accept that as their mascot.
It is even on the door to the clubhouse in San Francisco.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bohemian_Club_members
Her is Bob Wier of the Grateful Dead discussing his experience at Bohemian Grove:
Grieves
Senior Member
Isn't Nixon quoted later as saying a speech he made at the Bohemian Grove was the high-point of his career, or something along those lines?
I always find discussions along these lines very interesting, if not a little difficult to follow considering. It's nice to see secular voices arguing it, and I think you both make some valid points. I agree with Mick entirely that the real and perceived links between Freemasonry, the 'illuminati', Alister Crowley and his chums, the bohemian grove and Madonna are as indicative of a single philosophical movement as the startling connections one can make through 'Six degrees of Kevin Bacon'. I agree with Oxy however that the use of symbolism and religious ritual prevalent in mass-media and pop-culture is being highly underestimated and unduly dismissed, seemingly out of the belief (misguided in my opinion) that all of society is reasoned enough to perceive these symbols and rituals as nothing but frivolous entertainment.
Madonna's super-bowl performance is a damn good example from both angles, so lets start there. While its easy to accurately point out Madonna's performance had little basis in any particular faith and was just a bunch of pseudo-Egyptian symbols being tossed around, there's also absolutely no question that what was being depicted was, indeed, a religious ritual. Call it a parody, call it a tribute, call it fashion, call it stupidity; it is what it is, and it's unquestionably a growing trend in pop-culture. Religious rituals and occult themes are becoming more and more prevalent in pop-culture, as is 'blasphemous' imagery that would have had christian Censors crapping themselves not 15 years ago. Whether you feel this is Satanic influence on the rise or just an exploitive trend in the industry doesn't matter much... Pop-culture is clearly and unquestionably elbowing in on the religious scene, and from many different angles. That the secular community can sit back and balk doesn't change the fact that there are a whole lot of young, impressionable and dissatisfied people out there looking for something, anything to believe in. When Ke$ha and Lady Gaga talk about how they practice witchcraft and commune with spirits, we can idly muse 'Well isn't that retarded...' but at the same time there's bound to be several dozen, several hundred, maybe several thousand tweens out there who really want to believe it. That it's all bullshit doesn't change the power of the ideal, and the industries of modern popular culture, already so very influential, are broaching into the fertile grounds of the natural search for greater meaning, what I see as the inherent, genetic 'training weight' of abstract thought, previously viciously coveted by religious institutions... using religious imagery and ritual forms to elevate itself to its own kind of Religion.
I also think the importance of America's highly romantic feelings toward Ancient Egypt, whether they represent a secret occult society or not, is of relatively high importance, and is too readily dismissed. Pyramids, obelisks, and other hallmarks of Egyptian rituals and faiths litter American culture, especially around its centers of power, making it entirely easy for an 'Illuminati' conspiracy theorist to point them out with ease, claiming their prevalence makes the existence of the secret society obvious. I'm not nearly so sure of that, but it does however clearly illustrate aspects of the American ethos that I personally feel are highly problematic, and a contributor to the highly inequitable distribution of wealth and authority. We hold the Pyramids in such high regard, citing them as a marvelous wonder, featuring them abundantly in our media for over a century now, studying them and the practices of the culture surrounding them far more thoroughly in school than the nation in which they are positioned, and always with a focus on what an incredible, daunting, nearly impossible achievement they were. That they broke the backs of thousands upon thousands of slaves is an aside, a footnote of minor importance. Rather than see the pyramids as shameful testaments to the power individual greed can have to inflict horror upon masses, they are seen as glorious monuments to human ingenuity, and are espoused as an ideal.
Your brain-chemistry and your thought processes aren't separate entities, nor does one only influence the other. It's well documented that a person's state of mind can have a powerful influence on brain-chemistry, and vice versa. Thus the chemical change for which clinical depression is diagnosed can indeed be brought on by a less than sunny life outlook or a state of prolonged melancholy, in the same way that prolonged isolation or stress can instigate forms of clinical psychosis. One does not necessarily cause the other. I also don't think it's entirely accurate to class depression in the same category as diabetes or heart disease.
An ideal what? Nobody is going "if only we bring back slavery, we can build some giant pyramids!". The pyramids are seen as very impressive structures, but ancient Egyptian society is seen as an alien thing, not something to aspire to.
Are the Pyramids really more iconic an image in american culture than the Statue of Liberty, Mount Rushmore, or the Golden Gate Bridge?
Cairenn
Senior Member.
There are studies linking those changes to stress. And I know that I was effected by stress for a long period of time before I started getting depressed. My parents were older and I did not have any siblings. That was a radical change when my dad had to leave the field he worked in and move to another one (they stopped allowing non degree pharmacists). His income dropped nearly in half, that was the second grade, 5th grade he lost a leg to cancer and he was given 6 months to live. a year later, my mom had an unexplained anemia, the next year it was an ulcer for her, and the next year, she had a heart attack in the middle of my 8th grade finals (and I was the only person home). At this point, there is a chance that I may be an orphan before I am out of HS. Then things settled down for a few years. When I was 19, my dad's cancer came back and he lost his lower jaw and tongue to it. Then it was my mom and diabetes and her mood swings.
What hurt was never knowing what would happen next. Every time I made plans, BOOM they got torpedoed by something I had no control over. Do you think that might be a LITTLE stressful?
What hurt was never knowing what would happen next. Every time I made plans, BOOM they got torpedoed by something I had no control over. Do you think that might be a LITTLE stressful?
All new to me but thought it worth sharing for clarification, seems it was in all practicality, (apart from some post marital retribution
), only used to prosecute anal rape or male homosexual acts. I think therefore it is only a legal technicality to differentiate anti sodomy law from anti homesexuality law:http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_sodomy_mean
act of "unnatural" sex: anal or oral intercourse, or bestiality
Sodomy is sexual intercourse involving anal sex or oral copulation
The word sodomy is derived from the Latin peccatum Sodomiticum 'sin of Sodom'.
The noun, and the verb sodomise are used when referring to anal copulation by a man inserting his penis in the anus either of another man or a woman. If accomplished by force, without consent, or with someone incapable of consent, sodomy is a felony in all states in the same way that rape is.
Homosexual sodomy between consenting adults has also been found a felony, but increasingly is either decriminalized or seldom prosecuted. Sodomy with a consenting adult female is virtually never prosecuted even in those states in which it remains on the books as a criminal offence. However, there have been a few cases, including one in Indiana, in which an estranged wife insisted that her ex-husband be charged with sodomy for sexual acts while they were married. Traditionally sodomy was called "the crime against nature."
Technically, sodomy does not include oral copulation or sexual acts with animals (beastiality), however, in the United States, the term eventually encompassed oral sex as well as anal sex. The crime of sodomy was classified as a felony.
Alhazred The Sane
Senior Member.
Just an observation from one atheist. Whether one bunch of rich feckers are using imagery or rituals that are considered pagan or not, it doesn't bother me. Why not? Because I see all religious imagery, pagan or christian or whatever, as religious, and I don't differentiate. For christians who are comfortable with images of a man nailed up on a cross, some of whom believe they're consuming the flesh and blood of the same man (communion), I don't get why they are uncomfortable with older religious rituals. It's all the same superstitious nonsense to me, and if it means something to the believers then fair enough.
But associating all paganism with Babylon? That's patently absurd. Firstly, the word pagan (paganus) was a Roman word to describe country folk, people who lived outside of Rome, and by virtue of that fact didn't follow the ridiculous Roman set of gods. They had their own gods, which would have been of the Earth and Sun. Pretty much every culture that evolved on the planet worshiped the sun, which makes perfect sense: it's big, it's hot, and it has the most significant effect on lives. Nordic cultures recognised the sun and had a name for their sun god. So did Asian cultures. And so did South and Central American cultures. For some reason sun worship has never been recorded in North American cultures, but that might be down to the fact that the first humans to arrive there did so at the end of an ice age. Or maybe not. Their spirit manual recognised a wider range and was mostly involved in animism.
So why is the word 'Babylonian' cropping up all the time? It's not as if Babylonia was more significant than other cultures before or after. Nor was their mastery of what they considered science or math better. The Sumerians had a more significant impact. The Assyrians outlasted them. The Egyptians managed to build astronomically aligned monuments that we can still explore today.
I suspect that much of the guff about Babylonian 'occult' knowledge, and the concurrent notion that secret societies use that knowledge today, is down to the book of Revelations, and the hallucinatory writings of John where he identifies everything bad with 'The Whore of Babylon'. Which, like everything else, was a metaphor.
This other stuff about Isis/Osiris being linked to Babylonia is ... unfounded, at best. And to sun worship. Ra is the Egyptian link to the sun, Osiris was their god of the underworld, their Hades. When the Greeks were around they did their best to match other cultures gods to their own, the Romans did much the same. There are words for this behaviour: interpretatio graeca, and latterly syncretism. Christians did exactly the same later when they replaced pagan festivals with their own. However, the fact that some geezers came along later and renamed some foreign goddess as their own existing goddess, doesn't mean the two were the same. They probably had some of the same attributes. Why not, people held certain attributes highly.
But associating all paganism with Babylon? That's patently absurd. Firstly, the word pagan (paganus) was a Roman word to describe country folk, people who lived outside of Rome, and by virtue of that fact didn't follow the ridiculous Roman set of gods. They had their own gods, which would have been of the Earth and Sun. Pretty much every culture that evolved on the planet worshiped the sun, which makes perfect sense: it's big, it's hot, and it has the most significant effect on lives. Nordic cultures recognised the sun and had a name for their sun god. So did Asian cultures. And so did South and Central American cultures. For some reason sun worship has never been recorded in North American cultures, but that might be down to the fact that the first humans to arrive there did so at the end of an ice age. Or maybe not. Their spirit manual recognised a wider range and was mostly involved in animism.
So why is the word 'Babylonian' cropping up all the time? It's not as if Babylonia was more significant than other cultures before or after. Nor was their mastery of what they considered science or math better. The Sumerians had a more significant impact. The Assyrians outlasted them. The Egyptians managed to build astronomically aligned monuments that we can still explore today.
I suspect that much of the guff about Babylonian 'occult' knowledge, and the concurrent notion that secret societies use that knowledge today, is down to the book of Revelations, and the hallucinatory writings of John where he identifies everything bad with 'The Whore of Babylon'. Which, like everything else, was a metaphor.
This other stuff about Isis/Osiris being linked to Babylonia is ... unfounded, at best. And to sun worship. Ra is the Egyptian link to the sun, Osiris was their god of the underworld, their Hades. When the Greeks were around they did their best to match other cultures gods to their own, the Romans did much the same. There are words for this behaviour: interpretatio graeca, and latterly syncretism. Christians did exactly the same later when they replaced pagan festivals with their own. However, the fact that some geezers came along later and renamed some foreign goddess as their own existing goddess, doesn't mean the two were the same. They probably had some of the same attributes. Why not, people held certain attributes highly.
Clock
Senior Member.
Exactly Mick. The Cremation of Care is a play. A bit like a Magic Kingdom fireworks show. Wikipedia has a nice definition of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation_of_Care#cite_note-5
It's simply because it's one of the oldest civilization. All societies have things in common, and if you trace them back you sometimes get to the Babylonians as the earliest recorded example. That does not mean it's the source of everything, but unfortunately that's what people seem to think.
Clock
Senior Member.
Man has had a long history of fearing what they don't know about. It's partly why because get scared of the world ending, or why Jaws was terrifying in 1975. It's an unknown, and one does not feel comfortable in these environments.
Grieves
Senior Member
Given that America revitalized slaving to build up a nation of previously unimaginable wealth and plenty, I can't help but feel this statement has a certain level of irony attached.
Not being an American, I can't really say... but is the Statue of Liberty, Mount Rushmore, or the Golden Gate Bridge featured prominently on your currency? What do you remember spending more time on in early schooling? How many Casino's are shaped like Rushmore/Lady Liberty? Which pf those landmarks has been more prominently featured in American popular culture, from the black and white beginnings of film to modern movie-making? I wager the Pyramids win out by far.
The old man in your area with all of his signs may well be mentally ill, but it's a somewhat legitimate question, isn't it? What IS a pyramid doing there, if not representing a 'pharaohistic' ideal?
Nonsense can be dangerous though, can't it? Charismatic religious leaders, regardless of how nonsensical their practices are, can drive the gullible/vulnerable to commit horrors, as cult killings and suicides can attest, and those are cults typically involving people of less than considerable means. Now imagine the sort of harm a homicidal/suicidal cult could do if its membership consisted of influential billionaires. Are you so confident no such cult could ever exist? I'm sure as hell not. Which is why, though I don't personally buy the 'illuminati' business to the full extent that it's portrayed, I'm entirely able to concede the likelihood of there being secret societies of wealthy individuals with entirely strange religious elements in which inordinate influence is exorcised for strange religious (and of course financial, both of which are likely to coincide) reasons. Just because we as atheists can sit back and wave off all that bullshit for the bullshit that it is doesn't detract from it's power in the slightest.
Alhazred The Sane
Senior Member.
I'm not convinced that's the case. My own suspicion is that within Christianity the concept of Babylon has grown as a metaphor that far outstrips its original meaning. Perhaps the most extreme case is in Rastafarian culture, where Babylon is all things wicked. From a historical sense it doesn't make much sense, as the major conflicts between Babylon and the early Jews were prior to Moses (Abraham and Nimrod; Nebuchadnezzar and the fire to consume Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego). Then the new testament ends with the hallucinatory ramblings of John, and for whatever reason he names Babylon as the bad place. Not Rome, the oppressor of the time. Or any of the other cultures that the Jews had problems with.
What I'm saying is that nutters today like to link their nonsense to Babylon because it's mentioned in the Book of Revelations.
Alhazred The Sane
Senior Member.
"but is the Statue of Liberty, Mount Rushmore, or the Golden Gate Bridge featured prominently on your currency?"
I'm not American, but I'm pretty sure the dollar bill was before the Statue of Liberty (which already had been built (albeit smaller in France), and before Mt. Rushmore, and obviously before the GG Bridge, or the Empire State Building).
Why do we see pyramids as a 'Pharaohistic' ideal when pyramids were built in South America, Central America, and Asia? I'm guessing that any kid messing around with sand will discover domes work best, and with wood or stone that pyramids work really well. We shouldn't be surprised that people figured out what worked a long time ago. The same peoples, across the planet, managed to read the movements of the planets, to predict the moon's phases, and the sun.
They had little else to do at night.
I'm not American, but I'm pretty sure the dollar bill was before the Statue of Liberty (which already had been built (albeit smaller in France), and before Mt. Rushmore, and obviously before the GG Bridge, or the Empire State Building).
Why do we see pyramids as a 'Pharaohistic' ideal when pyramids were built in South America, Central America, and Asia? I'm guessing that any kid messing around with sand will discover domes work best, and with wood or stone that pyramids work really well. We shouldn't be surprised that people figured out what worked a long time ago. The same peoples, across the planet, managed to read the movements of the planets, to predict the moon's phases, and the sun.
They had little else to do at night.
Grieves
Senior Member
Because Egyptian pyramids, built by the Pharaohs, are the ones espoused by American culture. It isn't Chichen Itza on the dollar-bill. And nah, from what I can tell the statue of liberty was never featured on the dollar. The closest would probably be this, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/US-$1-SC-1896-Fr.224.jpg
But that's apparently a depiction of 'History' as a Goddess.
Cairenn
Senior Member.
In movies, a lot of other buildings have been featured more than the pyramids. The Empire State Building, the Capital, the White House, the Golden Gate bridge, even the Brooklyn bridge. The Golden gate bridge, the Statue of Liberty and Mt Rushmore are ALL late comers to the America landscape. Heck even Monument Valley has been seen in more movies than the pyramids. The pyramids show up in some historical movies.
There is one in Memphis, Tn, it was built as an sports arena, it has been sold to Bass Pro shops, to become a store.
There was a major Egyptian revival art movement at the end of the 1700's and into the early 1800s.
http://www.philadelphiafed.org/education/teachers/publications/symbols-on-american-money/
There is one in Memphis, Tn, it was built as an sports arena, it has been sold to Bass Pro shops, to become a store.
There was a major Egyptian revival art movement at the end of the 1700's and into the early 1800s.
http://www.philadelphiafed.org/education/teachers/publications/symbols-on-american-money/
It doesn't seem that it reflects anything really Egyptian.The reverse of the Great Seal features an unfinished pyramid, which Thomson states signifies "strength and duration." The pyramid is composed of 13 rows of building blocks, on the first of which are the Roman numerals representing 1776. The Latin inscription "Novus Ordo Seclorum" translates to "A New Order of the Ages." Thomson explains that this refers to the new form of government. Influenced by the poetry of Virgil, he composed this motto himself, writing that it signified "the beginning of the new American Era." At the top of the pyramid is an eye, with rays that emanate in all directions. Above the eye, the Latin motto "Annuit Coeptis" translates to "Providence Has Favored Our Undertakings," which Thomson explains "alludes to the many signal interpositions of providence in favor of the American cause."
Grieves
Senior Member
v
Have you actually seen a figure/done any research to back that up? I was simply guessing on the basis that I see a great deal more of the Pyramids in American Media than I do of any of the other mentioned monuments. Here's a list of movies featuring Pyramids/heavy Ancient-Egyptian themes.
http://www.ancientegyptfilmsite.nl/
Check out their index. Well over 800 features, most American.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Statue_of_Liberty_in_popular_culture
A list of appearances of the statue of liberty can be found here. It's considerably shorter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_State_Building#In_popular_culture
Empire state building. Even less than the statue of liberty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Gate_Bridge_in_popular_culture
Golden Gate Bridge. Decent list, but again, can't begin to compare to the Pyramids.
Have you actually seen a figure/done any research to back that up? I was simply guessing on the basis that I see a great deal more of the Pyramids in American Media than I do of any of the other mentioned monuments. Here's a list of movies featuring Pyramids/heavy Ancient-Egyptian themes.
http://www.ancientegyptfilmsite.nl/
Check out their index. Well over 800 features, most American.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Statue_of_Liberty_in_popular_culture
A list of appearances of the statue of liberty can be found here. It's considerably shorter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_State_Building#In_popular_culture
Empire state building. Even less than the statue of liberty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Gate_Bridge_in_popular_culture
Golden Gate Bridge. Decent list, but again, can't begin to compare to the Pyramids.
RolandD
Active Member
@ Grieves, I think you may be counting the hits and ignoring the misses. You're looking for Egyptian influences, therefore you're seeing them everywhere. I would argue that Greek and Roman influences are many times greater in all western society. Look around at all the buildings, almost all of them older than fifty years show the influence of Greek or Roman architecture. Sure, in DC, you have the Washington Monument, but almost everything else is Greco-Roman. Most of our holidays have their origins in ancient Rome and they stole them from the Greeks.
Symbols and themes are an easy short-hand to convey a lot of information. Movies, television, and literature use them frequently because of this. English speaking, western culture has a common shared history and cultural literacy. Eagles mean power, owls mean wisdom, pyramids means stability, etc.
Symbols and themes are an easy short-hand to convey a lot of information. Movies, television, and literature use them frequently because of this. English speaking, western culture has a common shared history and cultural literacy. Eagles mean power, owls mean wisdom, pyramids means stability, etc.
Cairenn
Senior Member.
The first sight has a lot of foreign films on it and a lot of things like cartoons. And then there are the Horror movies, like the Mummy series. The pyramids are not there because they signify something. Where else are you going to find a mummy?
The others signify the either the US or a city.
You are reading something in that doesn't exist and that never existed
The others signify the either the US or a city.
You are reading something in that doesn't exist and that never existed
I'm only a naturalized american myself, so I don't know if they teach kids about pyramids in the US. I grew up in the UK, and they taught use about Hadrian's wall, and castles. I don't remember pyramids from school.
In Vegas there's lots of different Casinos. Luxor is shaped like a Pyramid, but it's right there next to New York, which has Lady Liberty, and just down the road there's the Eiffel Tower.
Yeah, the great pyramids are popular, but heck they are the only remaining one of the seven ancient wonders of the world. You've got to give them some props for that. The are quite impressive.
The original designer said "The pyramid signifies Strength and Duration". Seems reasonable. It's a symbol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Seal_of_the_United_States#Symbolism
The Escutcheon is composed of the chief & pale, the two most honorable ordinaries. The Pieces, paly, represent the several states all joined in one solid compact entire, supporting a Chief, which unites the whole & represents Congress. The Motto alludes to this union. The pales in the arms are kept closely united by the chief and the Chief depends upon that union & the strength resulting from it for its support, to denote the Confederacy of the United States of America & the preservation of their union through Congress.The colours of the pales are those used in the flag of the United States of America; White signifies purity and innocence, Red, hardiness & valor, and Blue, the colour of the Chief signifies vigilance, perseverance & justice. The Olive branch and arrows denote the power of peace & war which is exclusively vested in Congress. The Constellation denotes a new State taking its place and rank among other sovereign powers. The Escutcheon is born on the breast of an American Eagle without any other supporters to denote that the United States of America ought to rely on their own Virtue.
Reverse. The pyramid signifies Strength and Duration: The Eye over it & the Motto allude to the many signal interpositions of providence in favour of the American cause. The date underneath is that of the Declaration of Independence and the words under it signify the beginning of the new American Æra, which commences from that date.
That's not comparing like with like. You've got a list of films set in Ancient Egypt. What does that demonstrate? You might as well compare it to a list of films set in new York.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_set_in_New_York_City
In the history of motion pictures in America, tens of thousands of films have been set and/or filmed in New York City, or a fictionalized version thereof.
The original design did look a lot more like Chichen Itza:
Really I think that strength and longevity are perfectly reasonable symbolic meanings that explain why it is there.
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Grieves
Senior Member
I understand there's a wide assortment of ancient cultures influencing modern art/architecture/ect., and again, I'm not saying the recurring use of Egyptian themes and motifs within the country is some sort of proof-positive of a grand millennia-spanning conspiracy with its roots in most ancient Babylon. All I'm saying is the Pyramids themselves are hugely romanticized in American culture, and generally cast in an exceedingly positive light given what they represent. This fetish for the Pyramids, and the rather unique level of mystery and magic attached to Egyptian lore, is to me an example of a certain distortion in the American, and perhaps really the near-global ethos at this point of ends vastly trumping means. The pyramids are surely worthy of preservation, study and a level of awe, but to teach them as a great achievement, as a wonder of the world to be praised and given tribute too, to have them come to represent symbols of stability and permanence as opposed to, far more accurately, symbols of oppression and death, seems somewhat backwards to me. These were tombs built by madmen at the terrible expense of many, the intended permanence made something of a sad joke by their evident decay. Surely they're wondrous structures, but they don't represent anything I'd personally want to associate myself with symbolically. I think a majority of folks, thinking about it, would agree with me.
Cairenn
Senior Member.
You do understand that they were built without the use of the wheel or a pulley and with only copper tools, NO iron tools either.
And by the way, they were NOT built by slaves.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/11/great-pyramid-tombs-slaves-egypt
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/pyramid_builders_01.shtml
There is a set of folks out there that are on the nutty edge of the new age movement that make up odd ball stories and such. Wait till encounter the 'Atlantians' and 'Lemurians'
And by the way, they were NOT built by slaves.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/11/great-pyramid-tombs-slaves-egypt
Hawass said the builders came from poor families from the north and the south, and were respected for their work – so much so that those who died during construction were bestowed the honour of being buried in the tombs near the sacred pyramids of their pharaohs.
Their proximity to the pyramids and the manner of burial in preparation for the afterlife backs this theory, Hawass said. "No way would they have been buried so honourably if they were slaves."
The tombs contained no gold or valuables, which safeguarded them from tomb raiders throughout antiquity, and the bodies were not mummified. The skeletons were found buried in a foetal position – the head pointing to the west and the feet to the east according to ancient Egyptian beliefs, surrounded by jars once filled with supplies for afterlife.
The men who built the last remaining wonder of the ancient world ate meat regularly and worked in three-month shifts, said Hawass
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/pyramid_builders_01.shtml
Not slaves, and fairly well fed. Maybe the pyramids were also a 'jobs project'.The animal bones recovered from this area and from the pyramid town include duck, the occasional sheep and pig and, most unexpectedly, choice cuts of prime beef. The ducks, sheep and pigs could have been raised amidst the houses and workshops of the pyramid town but cattle, an expensive luxury, must have been grazed on pasture - probably the fertile pyramid estates in the Delta - and then transported live for butchery at Giza.....
After comparing DNA samples taken from the workers' bones with samples taken from modern Egyptians, Dr Moamina Kamal of Cairo University Medical School has suggested that Khufu's pyramid was a truly nationwide project, with workers drawn to Giza from all over Egypt. She has discovered no trace of any alien race; human or intergalactic, as suggested in some of the more imaginative 'pyramid theories'.
There is a set of folks out there that are on the nutty edge of the new age movement that make up odd ball stories and such. Wait till encounter the 'Atlantians' and 'Lemurians'
Or maybe they would not give a hoot.
What's the big deal? You are making something out of nothing. It's the thing that's on the back of the great seal. It's a symbol. Back when they made the great seal they all had slaves. Sure maybe you could argue that it's a bit insensitive. But really, no. It's not worth arguing about. It's just an old symbol.
Its original meaning is irrelevant, now it means "the reverse of the great seal of the United States"
Grieves
Senior Member
Why?
An old symbol the average American sees most every day of their life, or at least near every day of their life in which money changes hands. A symbol also frequently represented in film and television, more often than not as sources of unnatural/supernatural power. A symbol which, in my own early education at least, was the centerpiece of any studies of the middle-east, and which were espoused as being incredible achievements of early civilization. Again, I'm not suggesting the pyramid fetish in the states is necessarily representative of anything other than the acceptance of uber-capitalism as an ideal. These testaments to religious insanity and the dominance the powerful and crazed can exert over the masses for entirely frivolous aims are generally respected rather admonished, which is, to me, a backwards position to take. I'm not saying America's pyramid fetish is a 'problem' in and of itself, only that its indicative of a mindset in which tyrannical behavior is relatively forgivable so long as the results are sufficiently impressive. This mindset is far more troublesome, and far more undeniably demonstrated, in relation to the decisions surrounding 'the war on terror'.
Because it does not have that meaning any more. It was a pretty tenuous meaning at best, I don't imagine even at the time most people would recognize it as symbolizing permanence unless they were told. Unless a symbol already has some meaning, then the intent of the designer generally stays with him, and the people he tells.
Consider this sign, what does it mean?
Nothing spring out (other than the text, and a picture of plane leaving a contrail). Well, the sign designer had some pretty specific symbolism in there:
http://globalskywatch.com/projects/end-genengineering.html#TheSign
Intent does not create lasting meaning. It simply creates meaning at the time, for people to whom the intent was conveyed.The Design
In advertising or marketing, advertisers employ profound yet effective symbolism that makes campaigns much more effective. This sign was designed with several symbolic elements that help make it more effective.
1. The sign's background color is unobtrusive yet noticeable. We did not choose red or some other high-visibility color because this may be considered an eye-sore by some and met with resistance by neighbors. The dark blue background represents strength and stability and promotes a feeling of integrity in our cause. It is also a practical color to use because of it's eye-catching contrast.
2. The image of the jet with plumes at the very top makes it clear that our issue is related to this image. Even if those viewing the signs don't visit the website, they will be more inclined to look up and notice the plumes and wonder why there is controversy surrounding them. Also, the jet is flying from right to left, in the reverse direction in which the English language is read. This symbolizes opposition to the norm and creates emotional contention.
3. The phrase "End GeoEngineering .com" is separated into 3 words and placed on separate lines making it easier to read from a distance.
4. The word "End" is proceeded by a "dual stroke" graphic that represents three things. First, it represents a lightening bolt that creates contention and action that symbolically relates to the word "End" (which it points to). Second, it represents pristine mountain tops that are being littered by the geoengineering plumes above. Third, it represents the curvature of the Earth adding emphasis to the previous symbolism. The three symbolic images together produce serenity and contention. Furthermore, the lightening bolt points from the word "GeoEngineering" to the word "End". This symbolically associates the concept of geoengineering with the word "End" adding emphasis to the sign's message.
5. The word "GeoEngineering" is the centerpiece of the sign because we want this word to become recognizable. The letter "E" at the beginning of the word "Engineering" is capitalized to make it easier to read and remember. Many people know that "Geo" means Earth and "Engineering" means to build or change, and the idea of changing the Earth captures the attention of concerned citizens around the world. The dual stroke above the word "GeoEngineering" contain 2 lower endpoints that help to divide the words "Geo" and "Engineering".
6. The word ".com" clearly reveals that the sign is providing us with the name of a website. On a practical level, it is placed on it's own line to increase readability. On a symbolic level, having the word on its own line shows the importance of the associated website.
7. The whimpering trail before the word ".com" symbolizes the effect our efforts are having on the massive plumes at the top of the sign. The viewers eyes first see the large plumes at the top of the sign, then they read "End GeoEngineering .com", then they see a plume greatly diminished into a whimpering, unthreatening line; the end of geoengineering. On a practical level, the whimpering trail forms a long dash associating the previous words with the ".com". Plus, it adds balance to the overall look of the sign.
8. The green frame around the sign denotes that all of our work is "green". We are protecting the environment.
9. Including the frame, there are a total of 7 elements in the sign. The number seven is associated with luck and good fortune in cultures around the world.
10. The word "GeoEngineering" is accented by a fading, black background. On a practical level, this emphasizes the word. On a symbolic level, the black background associates negativity and "emptiness" with this word. The black background fades using a series of subtle black diagonal lines. Diagonal lines are often associated with negativity and the intent to stop an activity, such as the diagonal line in a "No Smoking" sign: . Since the word "GeoEngineering" has been chosen by the corporate-controlled scientific community, it's going to be used for a long time. Our ability to help the public associate this word with the negative effects it has on all life will help us raise awareness about the very real dangers it presents.
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Grieves
Senior Member
Exactly. 'Pyramids are cool' is a common notion in America. Except they're not 'cool', are they? In fact they're physical examples of things that are severely 'uncool', are they not? If the pyramids are perceived as 'cool', 'awesome', or in other generally positive lights in the states, that suggests a pretty strong disconnect from what they actually represent, doesn't it? War too is portrayed as something 'cool' in modern America. Pop-stars brandish assault rifles on MTV, singing vapid songs about fashion and the scale of male genitalia while humping tanks next to back-up dancers dressed as riot police, people waving around Molotov cocktails like they're glow-sticks. Every second video-game on the market is about a war, real or fantasy-based, pitting the player against hoards of foreign enemies to be mercilessly obliterated. That's 'cool' too. Why should it be?
Do you deny this assertion? If symbols and their past and present meaning are of such minimal consequence, why are marketing and brand design multi-billion dollar businesses?
Alhazred The Sane
Senior Member.
Why? Are we back to the 'built by slaves' thing? Because that's been refuted earlier in the thread. What's so uncool about them? I've visited a couple, and they certainly impressed me.
Grieves
Senior Member
Perhaps. Maybe I am reading too much into the western 'pyramid fetish'. The symbolic depictions of pyramids within the culture of American power-structures, though undeniable, maybe is just an idle reference to cool old buildings, with no ideological reference or connection to the power-structures which saw them constructed. Maybe dismissing the generally hellish life-style that almost certainly accompanied their creation and simply appreciating what spectacular structures they are isn't the disconnect I perceive it as.
Maybe war and oppression are depicted in the popular media as sexy because that's just how people really feel about war and oppression, no motivation behind it but for an appeal to popular demand. Maybe associations with magic and mystery aren't fabricated but natural, and the recent influx of occult and religious imagery in pop-culture just a widespread effort to be edgy, and not a coordinated attempt to drive the religious curiosity of the young away from traditional faiths and toward consumer-culture. Maybe the super-sexualization of the media, including that aimed at children, and the recent efforts to espouse male dominance, humiliation and abuse as healthy sexual behaviors, is indeed just about meeting the surprisingly twisted demands of the masses, and not about manipulating popular sexuality into a more readily monetized form.
Or maybe you're too readily dismissing the significance of symbols in culture, their influence, and the ideals they may represent/encourage, on the basis of how little they mean to you personally and how little you believe yourself to be influenced by them.
I'm sorry, but being granted the 'honor' of a pit next to your masters tomb, and the off chance, based on old beef-bones, that you occasionally got a bit of prime-rib (for all we know that's what the whip-wielders were eating, not the guys getting whipped) doesn't exactly equate to ideal working conditions in my mind. I've seen a bit of the 'evidence' that the laborers on the Pyramids actually had it good, one of which was an ancient 'attendance table'. "How," enthused the man presenting the theory in question, "could these have been slaves when its noted here when they gotsick, and whether or not they received treatment?" I'm pretty sure prison-camps take attendance, treat their detainees, and feed them more-or-less decently as well. Look at where the rights of laborers are at today, and how inadequate they can often be. Do you imagine they were better thousands of years ago? In the middle of a vast and scalding desert? Pushing and hauling giant rocks across vast distances and forming them into building blocks with bronze-age tools, then stacking those massive blocks into a huge structure with a relatively small chamber in which often one guy and perhaps his family were to be buried? I'm sorry, but anyone who believes the pyramids were constructed without the blood, pain and torment of hundreds, if not thousands over many years is absolutely kidding themselves.
Maybe so, but how can you demonstrate otherwise?
Do you personally feel greatly influenced by pyramid symbols?
Grieves
Senior Member
The one currently on your dollar bill unquestionably is.
Until I was old enough to really think about it, Pyramids were awesome. They were those magical structures where ancient rituals brimming with meaning and mystery were carried out, representations of all that is strange and incredible about the ancient world, examples of mankind's greatness throughout the ages. I didn't come to this conclusion on my own, this is what I was taught about them both in early schooling and popular culture of the time. It only later occurred to me what the pyramids more accurately represent, which is many upon many lives wasted on the futile quest of a few obscenely selfish individuals for permanence and immortality. That the popular opinion of them in America so conflicts with what in my opinion is their reality is, to me, an example of how humanitarian considerations, historical and modern, take a back-seat to grand accomplishments... even if those grand accomplishments serve no purpose whatsoever. I'm not suggesting that every time there's a pyramid on a t-shirt the wearer and those who pass him are victims of subtle mind-control or something, or that the sight of pyramids has an undue influence on people. I'm saying that romantic and exceedingly forgiving light in which we cast the pyramids is indicative of, not the cause of, that disconnect between accomplishment and morality... part of the same ethos that allows Donald Trump and Dick Cheney to be idolized rather than reviled by society.
JonJson
Active Member
Actually yes the Statue of Liberty is featured on the reverse side of the Presidential $1 coin.
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