The US has also tested high-altitude balloons, designed to be less visible to radar, able to travel long distances and with the ability to counter prevailing winds. In the past, balloons were at the mercy of the wind (and China would have us believe they still are) but advanced computer systems enable them to use the currents at different altitudes to steer themselves and loiter at will.
I think we have to wait and see. About the balloon itself, it seems to have slowly come down in one piece, perhaps minus any pieces torn off by the exploding missile. I understand that opinions are prohibited in this forum but if they were allowed mine would be that we are dealing with a completely benign research balloon that took a path matching stratospheric winds. The Chinese have explained and ACTUALLY APOLOGIZED! The US refuses to accept that and prefers to maintain the "spy balloon" position. I hope for the time when cooler and more logical heads surface in our government. It may take a while.https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-says-us-is-going-take-care-of-chinese-balloon-2023-02-04/
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023...ll-take-care-of-suspected-chinese-spy-balloon
A paraphrase rather than a quotation. Other News Outlets appear to be making their own interpretations of the paraphrase from Reuters.
But this clearly means seven square miles. Obviously widely scattered debris. As shreds of the balloon fall, they flutter and spread out. One here, another way over there. If you draw a perimeter around the most widely scattered bits, the perimeter encloses an area of seven square miles. It doesn't mean a carpet of debris. There wasn't that much mass in the balloon or in the array.
What would a seven mile long debris field look like? A narrow line of debris seven miles long?
Agreed. We learned a valuable lesson after the shoot down of the KAL 747 in 1983. Against the advice of the DoD, President Reagan ordered the release of data and voice intercepts obtained through SIGINT means to prove the Soviets were lying when they denied shooting down the a/c. That data was presented in detail at the UN, and snippets of the voice intercepts were actually played during Mr Reagan's address to the American people on live TV. I remember watching that address.If you did actually work with missiles and have any military knowledge, you would know that we will never see any of that data. It's odd that you keep making such comments.
You neglected to mentioned your repentant PRC made threats after the shootdown.I think we have to wait and see. About the balloon itself, it seems to have slowly come down in one piece, perhaps minus any pieces torn off by the exploding missile. I understand that opinions are prohibited in this forum but if they were allowed mine would be that we are dealing with a completely benign research balloon that took a path matching stratospheric winds. The Chinese have explained and ACTUALLY APOLOGIZED! The US refuses to accept that and prefers to maintain the "spy balloon" position. I hope for the time when cooler and more logical heads surface in our government. It may take a while.
I wish you all success in this well structured forum. It's just not my style and I don't belong here . . .
https://apnews.com/article/politics...tony-blinken-51e49202f2a0a50541cde059934c4cfbIn its statement Sunday, China’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs said that “China will resolutely uphold the relevant company’s legitimate rights and interests, and at the same time reserving the right to take further actions in response.” China’s Ministry of Defense echoed the statement later in the day, saying it “reserves the right to take necessary measures to deal with similar situations.”
that took a path matching stratospheric winds
Article: A map of North America with arrows pointing to Alberta and Saskatchewan in Canada where the Chinese Surveillance Balloon was seen hovering. Getty Images
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https://www.wmbfnews.com/2023/02/04...chinese-balloon-spotted-grand-strand-pee-dee/By WMBF News Staff
Published: Feb. 5, 2023 at 10:05 AM PST|Updated: 1 hour ago
MYRTLE BEACH, S.C. (WMBF) - Possible debris from a Chinese balloon that was shot down was spotted Sunday at a North Myrtle Beach-area boat ramp.
WMBF News viewer Brady Deal sent in footage from the Johnny Causey Landing, showing what appears to be the downed balloon on a boat close to shore along with military personnel.
The balloon was shot down at around 3 p.m. Saturday after being spotted as it made its way across the Grand Strand and Pee Dee.
Should not be too long before we see "Chinese Balloon Pieces" for sale on eBay.Possible debris from Chinese balloon spotted at boat ramp
Not much to go on here.
https://www.wmbfnews.com/2023/02/04...chinese-balloon-spotted-grand-strand-pee-dee/
This is just a warning from local police not to touch suspected debris that has washed ashore, as it is part of a Federal investigation, but to simply report it.
Footage showing many pieces shredding away as it descends.
While the balloon’s exact dimensions and features are unclear, the Pentagon says it was spotted hovering at an altitude of about 60,000 feet — well beyond the range of civilian air travel.
The US has more and probably better satellites but still uses balloons.https://edition.cnn.com/politics/live-news/suspected-chinese-balloon-us/index.html
Weather balloon off course sounds legit to me. For spying they surely have better means.
1. The Pentagon has been misreported.
2. A Pentagon spokesperson has misused the term 'hovering' when they just mean something like 'not moving noticeably for some time'.
Article: Pentagon Press Secretary Brig. Gen. Pat Ryder Holds an On-Camera Press Briefing
Feb. 3, 2023Brigadier General Pat Ryder, Pentagon Press Secretary
...
GEN. RYDER: Yeah, so again, this is a surveillance balloon, hover — you know, operating at about 60,000 feet. Clearly, you know, we did a — a very close assessment, in terms of what it's doing. And as I mentioned, military commanders have assessed that there is no physical or military threat to people on the ground. And so in that regard, we'll continue to monitor.
Sorry, but I break out in hives when told that the evidence that can't be seen by anybody else, or the knowledge only accessible by the poster, proves the point under discussion. Our brethren and sistren over in the UFO community has have sensitized me to that. If you are unable or unwilling to back up the affirmative claims you are making, there is probably not much else to discuss on this topic. If the super secret evidence to which I shouldn't assume you have no more access than I have ever comes out, I'll meet you back here.Please don't make any uninformed judgements about what resources I have.
Which raises the question of whether there were more of them... if you can't aim accurately, fire a lot of shots and hope one hits your target. Might also explain a simultaneous balloon over Costa Rica.but IF the reports of it going through ALberta and Saskatchewan are accurate then it doesnt match the NOAA map.
It's interesting that most of the arrow points don't align with some posted tracks. Also,but IF the reports of it going through ALberta and Saskatchewan are accurate then it doesnt match the NOAA map.
Article: A map of North America with arrows pointing to Alberta and Saskatchewan in Canada where the Chinese Surveillance Balloon was seen hovering. Getty Images
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1. Is true much of the time. Alternatively the Pentagon is wrong, and having done contracts for them they are not all genius level.From one of the documents linked at #126 above:
Either:
1. The Pentagon has been misreported.
2. A Pentagon spokesperson has misused the term 'hovering' when they just mean something like 'not moving noticeably for some time'.
3. The balloon really does have the ability to maintain its position steady over a point on the ground, unlike most balloons.
4. The Pentagon, or at least a Pentagon spokesperson, is ignorant of basic physics.
I don't think we can rule out any of these. Option 3 would be most interesting. Option 4 would be worrying.
Superb Pictures. Looks like the Sidewinder didn't destroy the equipment. Wonder about ocean impact next.Higher resolution photo shows array substantially intact.
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It's not our responsibility to prove that this balloon is a spy device.It's interesting that most of the arrow points don't align with some posted tracks. Also,
1. Is true much of the time. Alternatively the Pentagon is wrong, and having done contracts for them they are not all genius level.
2. We know the jet stream, aka Wiley Post, 1931, is variable. He got up to+200 mph Eastbound when he discovered it over Oklahoma.
3. Nope, not a chance
4. Yes, see my number 1.
My experience is that the Pentagon often misreports itself.
I present a new challenge. Can anyone provide a tiny bit of evidence that the balloon is on a spy mission? Just anything solid? I can't.
On Friday, the Chinese foreign ministry said it “regrets the unintended entry,” and responded by saying, “It is a civilian airship used for research, mainly meteorological, purposes. Affected by the Westerlies and with limited self-steering capability, the airship deviated far from its planned course.”It's not our responsibility to prove that this balloon is a spy device.
It is the responsibility of the Chinese government to inform other countries of their so called 'civilian weather balloon' activities when they conduct them, or when their balloon gets loose. It is their responsibly to make clear the nature of the craft to the public.
They didn't do that seemingly once over the past 3-4+ years of sightings and now all the sudden we're expected to give them the benefit of the doubt?
for research, mainly meteorological, purposes.
Very interesting. So if they are being tracked, probably means they have transponders. So why do weather balloons have transponders? Maybe because of some international convention or agreement? Possibly through ICAO? And if such a requirement exists, does it apply only to weather balloons, or to any balloon that could pose a threat to air travel? I'd bet on the latter. I've not read anywhere about the PRC destroyed on Saturday balloon squawking a transponder signal.Slightly off thread.... I often post links to plane tracking and satellite tracking websites on here but did you know that you can track Weather Balloons all around the world....
https://sondehub.org/
Amateur balloons can be tracked here
https://amateur.sondehub.org/
Root page is https://habhub.org/
Very interesting. So if they are being tracked, probably means they have transponders. So why do weather balloons have transponders?
Yes , you can go back in time and see the historic position of balloons and telemetry data for up to 12 hrs. I havent found a way of replaying data from days or weeks in the past.Have you gotten familiar enough with this weather balloon tracker to know if you can go back in time to look at activity on specific dates in specific locations?
The Chinese balloon wasn't on this site.I'm curious if the PRC balloon showed up on this designated weather balloon tracker at anytime since its launch? If there is a look back capability, should be doable to see if it showed over Montana whatever data/time(s) if was last week it was noticed/reported there.
Article: At lower levels, officials have tracked multiple instances of balloon activity over U.S. territories in recent years. One of the Trump-era balloons hovered over Guam, according to two U.S. officials. And in 2020, the intelligence community assessed that much smaller balloons detected off the coast of Virginia were Chinese radar-jamming devices, according to a former senior DoD official.
The U.S. Air Force's U-2S Dragon Lady spy planes were among the assets tapped to monitor and collect intelligence on a Chinese government surveillance balloon during its recent trip across parts of the continental United States and Canada.
A U.S. defense official confirmed the use of the U-2S as part of the broader response to the Chinese spy balloon to The War Zone today. It's not immediately clear all the points along the balloon's voyage that U-2s were present.
The Dragon Lady is the only aircraft in U.S. military inventory, at least that we know, that can fly persistently at altitudes even higher than where the balloon was soaring, which was between roughly 60,000 and 70,000 feet throughout its trip across the United States and Canada.
With any array of sensors like this, a U-2S could gather high-quality visuals of the balloon, as well as soak up any electronic emissions that it might have been pumping out. The Dragon Lady can further carry robust data links that allow for sharing the information it gathers with personnel on the ground in near-real-time.
Based on this, I don't understand Chinese objections to having it shot down.
i imagine it's ok worldwide to shoot down spy planes. that's probably why they invented drones.Don't the US spy on other countries with all sorts of means including spy planes, drones and balloons?
This could easily leed to a tit for tat scenario. I can see why they would be hesitant to shoot down a spy craft, they would know that could leed to reprisals on any of their spy assets
It's not an accident that things like the Geneva Convention are usually silent on spies despite being very comprehensive on soldiers at war, prisoners of war, civilians in a war zone, civilian government of warring nations, etc etc etc.i imagine it's ok worldwide to shoot down spy planes. that's probably why they invented drones.
huh. i didn't know that.Geneva Convention are usually silent on spies
Article: "With regard to the balloon over Latin America, it has been verified that the unmanned airship is from China, of civilian nature and used for flight test," China Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Mao Ning told reporters Monday. "Affected by the weather and with limited self-steering capability, the airship deviated far from its planned course and entered into the airspace of Latin America and the Caribbean."
The top U.S. general responsible for protecting North American skies said Monday that past incursions by Chinese balloons went undetected by the Pentagon...
The Defense Department has acknowledged that the craft shot down Saturday off the South Carolina coast after a days-long journey across the U.S. mainland marked at least the fifth time in recent years that Beijing has breached the nation’s airspace using such technology. Officials informed lawmakers over the weekend that, dating back to Donald Trump’s presidency, there had been similar breaches near Texas, Florida, Hawaii and Guam.“
Perhaps, up until now, these balloons have been spotted visually simply by happenstance. If that's true, it follows that many others haven't been detected at all.As NORAD commander, it’s my responsibility to detect threats to North America,” Gen. Glen D. VanHerck, who oversees the North American Aerospace Defense Command, told reporters during a news briefing. “I will tell you that we did not detect those threats. And that’s a domain awareness gap that we have to figure out.”
China operates more than 100 so-called police stations worldwide to monitor, harass and repatriate its citizens in exile. Ireland ordered a Chinese police station found on its territory to shut down, as has the Netherlands. Canada has issued "cease and desist" warning to China over police stations.
FBI Director Christopher Wray told a Homeland Security Committee last month he was "very concerned" about possible unauthorized Chinese police stations in US cities.
"It is outrageous to think that the Chinese police would attempt to set up shop, you know, in New York, let's say, without proper coordination. It violates sovereignty and circumvents standard judicial and law enforcement cooperation processes," he said.
Found this -- I cringe at myself for using Daily Mail as a source, but they were the first I found that did not seem to be using a pic of the US balloon to illustrate their story, PLUS the possible route map at the bottom gives a good feel, to me at least, for how two balloons that started off in slightly different directions can wind up so far apart.do we have pics of the balloon over Latin America?
No idea, it would seem either would do for both. Possibly not everybody got the memo?wonder why this one is "for test flight" but ours was allegedly for weather.
Found this -- I cringe at myself for using Daily Mail as a source, but they were the first I found that did not seem to be using a pic of the US balloon to illustrate their story, PLUS the possible route map at the bottom gives a good feel, to me at least, for how two balloons that started off in slightly different directions can wind up so far apart.
Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...y-balloon-spotted-sky-time-Latin-America.html
No idea, it would seem either would do for both. Possibly not everybody got the memo?
Short of RAF Typhoons based in the Falklands, I doubt there is a fighter based in South America capable of taking down that balloon. Of course the US could offer to take it out as a member of the OAS.Here is the source tweet for that daily mail article. It's from Maracaibo, Venezuela.
Source: https://twitter.com/el_charlie/status/1621631362343084033/photo/1
That graphic is interesting... if correct this would mean that one spotted over Costa Rica a couple days ago is almost certainly the same one over South America at this time. Also, the two paths of the balloons and the times of which they were released may suggest that they were released simultaneously and probably not for the purpose of 'weather research'
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