HappyMonday
Moderator
How conspiracy theorists work 101...
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Is Barium in Jet Fuel?
- Thread starter Classified
- Start date
How conspiracy theorists work 101...
justanairlinepilot
Senior Member.
Classified, have you really given much thought about what a barium compound would do to a jet engine. I am talking about more than trace amounts, enough to seed the atmosphere for geo-engineering...
Barium would destroy it rapidly, the metals would fuse to the fan blades making them imbalanced and destroy the engine. The inter-turbine of a jet engine (N2), spins at over 30,000 rpm, the slightest imbalance is detrimental.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barium
Barium melts at approximately 730 degrees C, a jet engine at cruise altitude/cruise power operates at approximately 750-950 degrees C.
I am very curious how one would get past this problem.
It seems to me you have no more facts to provide and you are now arguing semantics.
Barium would destroy it rapidly, the metals would fuse to the fan blades making them imbalanced and destroy the engine. The inter-turbine of a jet engine (N2), spins at over 30,000 rpm, the slightest imbalance is detrimental.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barium
Barium melts at approximately 730 degrees C, a jet engine at cruise altitude/cruise power operates at approximately 750-950 degrees C.
I am very curious how one would get past this problem.
It seems to me you have no more facts to provide and you are now arguing semantics.
F4Jock
Senior Member.
I thought we'd been down this road before? Perhaps Classified wants to see what happens when a GE, Rolls or Pratt and Whitney tosses a blade?
justanairlinepilot
Senior Member.
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F4Jock
Senior Member.
Needs more barium don't you think?
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Classified
New Member
I never claimed barium was added to jet fuel. I provided several gov links stating jet fuel as a source of barium, at which point Mick said these were mistakes.
Then he provided data showing barium naturally occurring in jet fuel. So I am still confused why I cant get a straight answer about anything here.
First the barium sources were mistakes, next contrail cirrus do not affect the weather, and then they do according to the glider pilot, and finally Mick states that the overall contrail warming effect is not as important as lowering Co2 emissions.
This is a debunking debacle.
Then he provided data showing barium naturally occurring in jet fuel. So I am still confused why I cant get a straight answer about anything here.
First the barium sources were mistakes, next contrail cirrus do not affect the weather, and then they do according to the glider pilot, and finally Mick states that the overall contrail warming effect is not as important as lowering Co2 emissions.
This is a debunking debacle.
Belfrey
Senior Member.
What is your main point? Why were you inquiring about barium in jet fuel to begin with? What do you think is the importance, significance, or effect of the trace amounts that can be found in jet fuel?
justanairlinepilot
Senior Member.
And I didn't accuse you...the assumption was ( and I must be wrong) that you were referring to Barium in jet fuel as a means to support some sort of geo-engineering effort.
If that's not the case, my apologies, as it was an open-ended question. Obviously, there are trace amounts, as you've seen in several citations on metabunk.
I hope you've got your answer.
With all this dialogue in this thread, and your last post, I'm assuming that you don't want any information on barium relating to chemtrails and geo-engineering.
justanairlinepilot
Senior Member.
Jay Reynolds
Senior Member.
This was your original question. You got more information here than is available at any chemtrails site, yet you seem dissatisfied. It almost seems like you came here intending to be dissatisfied. Frankly, I don't care because you don't seem to care yourself.
Your actions speak louder than your words, really.
You won't even respond when asked a very simple question which you should have answered yourself which is how much barium would be present in the atmosphere naturally. That is yet another question which should easily be available at chemtrail sites but is not. The last question really boils down to why you wouldn't bother to bring to us an actual jet fuel analysis as repayment for all we have presented for your edification. You don't care.
You might think you are being sly cute or cunning. I think you are simply a wastrel of our time.
justanairlinepilot
Senior Member.
It seems every time someone comes on this site to test the debunkers, I learn a little bit (sometimes a lot). With that said, I don't see any of this as a waste of time; however, it does reaffirm my efforts to debunk chemtrails.
It seems this debunk (argument) is over...
Belfrey
Senior Member.
The nice thing is that, regardless of the intent or behavior of the OP, in the process of examining the question we gained some good information. Although it was unlikely that barium was being added to jet fuel, I don't know how many of us had tried to find out before if there was any barium to be found in it. Now when someone else brings up the question, we can say: yes, there is a trace amount of barium in jet fuel, much like there is in the gasoline you put in your car.
lotek
Active Member
the reason you are getting this from so many angles is because you have yet to say why you want to know, so we dont really know what to tell you about. your summary of the thread is very very poor. you are capitalizing on vague over simplifications in an attempt to validate your belief of persecution. we simply dunno what you are getting at and several ppl are trying to preempt you, at which point you categorically deny that as your intention.
its occurs in jet fuel, as it occurs in nearly everything.. that is a point you are missing maybe? Some members are reluctant to tell you that it is naturally in fuel in tiny amounts because they are afraid you, like so many before you, will immediately run far and fast with this information and use it to plague the world with sloppy half assed chemtrail hoaxes. please pay attention to the ppm/ppb/kg amounts noted.
while it is technically true, in the scope we THINK you are thinking about it from, it is not true.
personally i think mick should purge the chemtrail vs climate portion of this thread as it is off topic and covered much better elsewhere on the site.
you would be the first to come here, with a loaded name like classified, asking about barium in jet fuel, a common chemtrail pseudoscience building block, and not be here to talk about chemtrails. my apologies if you are here to talk about making blanc fixe from spare jet fuel laying around your defunct airstrip.
this is why i keep asking you:
What is it that you actually want to know, or why are you asking about it?
if you cant answer that, i am left only to believe you are employing an intentionally diversionary writing style. to what ends i have no idea.
its occurs in jet fuel, as it occurs in nearly everything.. that is a point you are missing maybe? Some members are reluctant to tell you that it is naturally in fuel in tiny amounts because they are afraid you, like so many before you, will immediately run far and fast with this information and use it to plague the world with sloppy half assed chemtrail hoaxes. please pay attention to the ppm/ppb/kg amounts noted.
while it is technically true, in the scope we THINK you are thinking about it from, it is not true.
personally i think mick should purge the chemtrail vs climate portion of this thread as it is off topic and covered much better elsewhere on the site.
you would be the first to come here, with a loaded name like classified, asking about barium in jet fuel, a common chemtrail pseudoscience building block, and not be here to talk about chemtrails. my apologies if you are here to talk about making blanc fixe from spare jet fuel laying around your defunct airstrip.
this is why i keep asking you:
What is it that you actually want to know, or why are you asking about it?
if you cant answer that, i am left only to believe you are employing an intentionally diversionary writing style. to what ends i have no idea.
joelb79
Active Member
And of course add to that that Barium is a very very common element in the earths crust therefore it is found essentially everywhere.
At this point I must unfortunately concur that you seem to be deliberately misunderstanding what's going on. I'm going to give you a final chance to understand before I ban you.
To be very clear:
- There was a question as to if barium is in jet fuel, your question: "So why is barium in jet fuel?"
- CDC docs said that barium is USED in jet fuel
- Myself and others said this has to be a mistake, as there's no known USE for barium in jet fuel
- Old research was uncovered that suggests that it was briefly experimented with 40 years ago, and this crept into the literature
- Test results show that barium, like all natural metals, naturally exists in jet fuel in normal background levels, just like it exists in blood, or gasoline.
Hence the question is answered.
Classified
New Member
I want to know what effects contrails and jets are having on the atmosphere, and why these contrail cirrus clouds are considered water, or just an eye sore, rather than the unintentional weather modification and source of global warming that they are. I have posted several studies showing an overall positive temp change yet there are still people claiming contrails do not warm the planet.
I do not know how much barium is naturally present in the atmosphere, but is it possible for trace amounts to eventually build to higher levels, extending damage to the atmosphere?
I do not know how much barium is naturally present in the atmosphere, but is it possible for trace amounts to eventually build to higher levels, extending damage to the atmosphere?
justanairlinepilot
Senior Member.
Classified, that's a more rational question than what was presented in the beginning. Why was it so painful to get to this point?
And I've posted research from 2013 that says, basically, "probably warming a bit for the linear contrails, not sure about the contrail cirrus".
No more than any other metal. All particulates eventually rain out, so if pollution is emitting at a steady level, then particulate levels will stabilize at a steady level.
Before we proceed though, can you indicate that you accept my explanation of the barium in jet fuel questions:
lotek
Active Member
please move this to a new thread, or read one of the hundred others that have addressed this exact topic already.
Classified
New Member
Yes your explanation is sufficient Mick, that there is no barium added to jet fuel currently, but it has been used previously and it naturally occurs now.
Also I did not start this thread, Mick moved my comments here from the case orange debunked thread.
Also I did not start this thread, Mick moved my comments here from the case orange debunked thread.
The conversation started with your question. But let's move on.
justanairlinepilot
Senior Member.
Classified, welcome to the debunk forum, Brother...
justanairlinepilot
Senior Member.
Your comment would be expected given your profile avatar. You never cease to amaze me with your intellect.
Just to be very clear again, there were some very brief mentions from 40+ years ago of experiments with using barium compounds as a smoke suppressor in jet engines, and there was actual usage of it as a smoke suppressor in diesel fuels. However there does not seem to be any evidence it was ever actually USED in jet fuel.
https://www.metabunk.org/posts/38461
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joelb79
Active Member
http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/1520-0477%281997%29078%3C1885%3ACCATPF%3E2.0.CO%3B2
Just a few to get you started.
joelb79
Active Member
Exactly; something so complex to model as global climate change requires intense study of many factors involved. Contrail-created cirrus clouds are just one subject where they are not quite yet sure the total implications to global climate change.
MikeC
Closed Account
Just a small point - it has always naturally occurred - it always did, and, unless we develop some super filtration system, it always will.
F4Jock
Senior Member.
Personally I've developed a theory that dinosaurs drove SUVs, thus leading to increased CO2 and the lush climate they experienced....
But seriously, I'm encouraged by the way this thread was handled by all concerned. Even though it drifted for a bit in the end it was brought back to center. I'll go out on a limb and state that the results were more than satisfactory and enlightening for all.
This is how it should work!
lotek
Active Member
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_2_organometallic_chemistry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallocene
http://books.google.com/books?id=6F...wBA#v=onepage&q=organometallic barium&f=false
thats worth a read. smoke suppression is mentioned several times, as the metal centric rings are added to plastics to make them fire retardant. note those are not the compounds used in the aviation tests however.
i know its rather irrelevant but i feel it in poor taste we havent mentioned a single chemical by its name 3 pages deep into this thread. ill do some more searching of patent and scholar DB when i get back from a certification i have to take today. Id like to put a face to a few of the things we have been talking about.
3rd link being the best/most relevant to this thread.
I was merely trying to be more clear, because of the poster's use of incomplete summary in past postings, not necessarily nitpicky or snarky, tho i do see how it would come off as such.
as for the avatar:http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/y-u-no-guy
that should explain it ;] my signature is a combination of that and another one, lrn2, learn to/l2. its just generally how i feel...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallocene
http://books.google.com/books?id=6F...wBA#v=onepage&q=organometallic barium&f=false
thats worth a read. smoke suppression is mentioned several times, as the metal centric rings are added to plastics to make them fire retardant. note those are not the compounds used in the aviation tests however.
i know its rather irrelevant but i feel it in poor taste we havent mentioned a single chemical by its name 3 pages deep into this thread. ill do some more searching of patent and scholar DB when i get back from a certification i have to take today. Id like to put a face to a few of the things we have been talking about.
3rd link being the best/most relevant to this thread.
Your comment would be expected given your profile avatar. You never cease to amaze me with your intellect.
I was merely trying to be more clear, because of the poster's use of incomplete summary in past postings, not necessarily nitpicky or snarky, tho i do see how it would come off as such.
as for the avatar:http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/y-u-no-guy
that should explain it ;] my signature is a combination of that and another one, lrn2, learn to/l2. its just generally how i feel...
Classified
New Member
Lets take a look at something a little more recent than the 97' AMS study.
This work is two pronged, discussing 1) the morphology of contrails and their transition to cirrus uncinus, and 2) their microphysical and radiative properties. It is based upon the fortuitous occurrence of an unusual set of essentially parallel contrails and the unanticipated availability of nearly simultaneous observations by photography, satellite, automated ground-based lidar, and a newly available database of aircraft flight tracks. The contrails, oriented from the northeast to southwest, are carried to the southeast with a component of the wind so that they are spread from the northwest to southeast. Convective turrets form along each contrail to form the cirrus uncinus with fallstreaks of ice crystals that are oriented essentially normal to the contrail length. Each contrail is observed sequentially by the lidar and tracked backward to the time and position of the originating aircraft track with the appropriate component of the wind. The correlation coefficient between predicted and actual time of arrival at the lidar is 0.99, so that one may identify both visually and satellite-observed contrails exactly. Contrails generated earlier in the westernmost flight corridor occasionally arrive simultaneously with those formed later closer to the lidar to produce broader cirrus fallstreaks and overlapping contrails on the satellite image. The minimum age of a contrail is >2 h and corresponds to the longest time of travel to the lidar. The lag between the initial formation of the contrail and its first detectability by Moderate-Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer (MODIS) is ≈33 min, thus accounting for the distance between the aircraft track and the first detectable contrail by satellite. The lidar also provides particle fall speeds and estimated sizes, optical extinction coefficients, optical thickness (τ = 0.35), and ice water path (IWP = 8.1 g m−2). These values correspond to the lower range of those found for midlatitude cirrus by Heymsfield et al. The ice water per meter of length along the cloud lines is 103–104 times that released by typical jet aircraft. The synthesis of these findings with those of prior investigators provides confidence in the present results. Various authors find that contrail-generated cirrus such as reported here contribute to net regional warming.
An overview of global climate changing in current scenario and mitigation action
Pragya Nemaa,∗, Sameer Nemab, Priyanka Roya
a Electrical Engineering Department, Netaji Subhash Engineering College, Kolkata, W.B. 7000115, India
b Lafarge A&C, Kolkata, India
a r t i c l e i n f o
Article history:
Received 24 August 2011
Received in revised form 10 January 2012
Accepted 11 January 2012
Available online 23 February 2012
SR1419
Senior Member.
Are you suggesting that abstract is from the paper you listed?? Because its not- the abstract is from this paper:
http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/JAM2325.1
Classified
New Member
Yes you are correct, I grabbed the wrong link.
Belfrey
Senior Member.
In that case, note what the paper you meant to link says about the radiative effect of contrails (emphasis mine):
We may summarize the various studies as follows:
These estimates are based upon the work of Minnis et al. (1998), Ponater et al. (2002), Palikonda et al. (2002), and Minnis et al. (2004). The latter authors also project an aircraft scenario for 2050 that would produce a regional radiative forcing of 1.5 W m−2 over Europe, a global coverage of 0.5%, and a radiative forcing of 0.05 W m−2. In short, the present-day effects are significant regionally but in the noise globally. Further research is necessary to assess factors such as the amount of cirrus that is initiated by the contrails but not distinguishable from natural cirrus.
- regional effects in the 1990s in the United States and Europe have a cover of 0.5%–2% with a maximum over Europe of 0.35%, and warming of 0.1–0.2 W m−2, and
- global effects that are about 0.1 of the regional values.
HappyMonday
Moderator
There's some previous discussion of that here, as part of a thread on contrail mitigation -
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/465-Is-the-non-mitigation-of-contrails-a-deliberate-policy
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Jazzy
Closed Account
We aren't a "team". We've never met each other, to my knowledge.
Isn't this a free and unbordered conversation? Then why respond so tetchily?
Isn't it true that you are using a source you have at least implied you mistrust to validate a conclusion you've made?
Doesn't it put into question the validity of both your argument and your conclusion?
Edit: Wow, the notification system suffers some delays! Late to the party, again... I mean really late...
Isn't this a free and unbordered conversation? Then why respond so tetchily?
Isn't it true that you are using a source you have at least implied you mistrust to validate a conclusion you've made?
Doesn't it put into question the validity of both your argument and your conclusion?
Edit: Wow, the notification system suffers some delays! Late to the party, again... I mean really late...
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Perhaps Barium in added into the exhaust of jet engines rather than the fuel itself. And it may not be comparable but it has been verified that Cesium was added to jet fuel for the SR-71 decades ago. I will await the critique of experts on that versus this.
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