Is Barium in Jet Fuel?

Classified

New Member
So the CDC.GOV simply made a mistake stating that barium is in jet fuel? That is really strange. You guys can really debunk anything cant you!
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
So the CDC.GOV simply made a mistake stating that barium is in jet fuel? That is really strange. You guys can really debunk anything cant you!

And why is that strange?

Since there is no other source other than this passing mention, it really can only be seen as being a mistake. Read the full version of the Toxicological Profile:
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp24.pdf

It's mentioned as an additive for fuels (not jet fuel specifically)
Some barium compounds, such as barium carbonate, barium chloride, and barium hydroxide, are used to make ceramics, insect and rat poisons, and additives for oils and fuels; in the treatment of boiler water; in the production of barium greases; as a component in sealants, paper manufacturing, and sugar refining; in animal and vegetable oil refining; and in the protection of objects made of limestone from deterioration
Content from External Source
The "jet fuel" mention is the same as in the pamphlet:
Barium and its compounds are used in oil and gas drilling muds, automotive paints, stabilizers for plastics, case hardening steels, bricks, tiles, lubricating oils, and jet fuel as well as in various types of pesticides (Bodek et al. 1988; Venugopal and Luckey 1978; WHO 2001). The largest use of mined barite, which accounts for 94% of the total output, is oil and gas well drilling (USGS 2006). The rest of barite ore (or crude barium sulfate) is utilized frequently as a colorant in paint, as a flux to reduce melting temperature in the manufacture of glass, and as a filler in plastics, rubber, and brake linings as well as in the production of other barium compounds (Dibello et al. 2003). Such barium compounds as the carbonate, chloride, and hydroxide are important in the brick, ceramic, photographic, and chemical manufacturing industries (Bodek et al. 1988).
Content from External Source
Its use in diesel fuels as a smoke supressor.
The use of barium in the form of organometallic compounds as a smoke suppressant in diesel fuels results in the release of solids to the atmosphere (Miner 1969a; Ng and Patterson 1982; Schroeder 1970). The maximum concentration of soluble barium in exhaust gases containing barium-based smoke suppressants released from test diesel engines and operating diesel vehicles is estimated to be 12,000 μg/m3, when the barium concentration in the diesel fuel is 0.075% by weight and 25% of the exhausted barium (at a sampling point 10 feet from the engine and upstream from the muffler) is soluble (Golothan 1967). Thus, 1 L of this exhaust gas contains an estimated 12 μg soluble barium or 48 μg total barium (Schroeder 1970). However, recent legislation requiring the use of low-sulfur fuel in diesel engines has eliminated the need for barium as a sulfur-scavenging additive and, therefore, has greatly reduced the emissions of barium from diesel engine exhaust (Schauer et al. 1999; Winkler 2002).
Content from External Source
I think the facts are that barium WAS considered for use as a jet engine additive, about 50 years ago, and the slight mentions of this in the science literature have just bubbled up to the present day. See:

This 1969 document on barium has just one passing mention of jet engines
http://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPURL.cgi?Dockey=91004YF6.txt

The U.S. Navy ran smoke-suppressant tests on gas turbine engines using an organometallic material containing barium and found the material effective in reducing smoke. However, during the tests intolerable amounts of barium carbonate deposit adhered to the turbine and other flow passages. 22

22. Shayeson, M. W., Reduction of Jet Engine Exhaust Smoke with Fuel Additives, Society of Automotive Engineers, S.A.E.-670866 (1967).
Content from External Source
 

Classified

New Member
So I present you with a .GOV link stating barium in jet fuel and Micks response is.... Why don't you look up how much is contained and in which fuels?

Why don't you look it up... I thought you were the debunker?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
So I present you with a .GOV link stating barium in jet fuel and Micks response is.... Why don't you look up how much is contained and in which fuels?

Why don't you look it up... I thought you were the debunker?

I have looked it up, see above. Barium is NOT used in jet fuels. They tried it once as a smoke suppressor, but it did not work.
 

solrey

Senior Member.
The U.S. Navy ran smoke-suppressant tests on gas turbine engines using an organometallic material containing barium and found the material effective in reducing smoke. However, during the tests intolerable amounts of barium carbonate deposit adhered to the turbine and other flow passages. 22
Content from External Source
I highlighted that part because deposition in the turbine section would drastically reduce engine life which is why the additives chemtrailers claim are added to fuel could not be used.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
So the CDC.GOV simply made a mistake stating that barium is in jet fuel? That is really strange. You guys can really debunk anything cant you!

If you beleive in the conspiracy then by definition you already believe the Govt isn't perfect - why can't they make a mistake like this?

As I said - I can find no evidence of barium in jet fuel - the usual material quoted as including it is Stadis 450 (lots of chemtrail sites mention it) but it appears to not actually include barium, and I can find no other reference to barium in jet fuel, either as an additive or in any other context.

So given that I HAVE done some research, and cannot find any evidence of Barium in jet fuel, why would I not suggest it is in error?

If you think I am wrong how about doing some research yourself and providing some information to support that conclusion? I'm hapy to admit I'm wrong if there's evidence of it.

What we can actually debunk is stuff that can be debunked - and in this case it happens to be a .govt webstite - debunking is not limited to loony conspiracy theories!
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
You can buy a small amount of jet fuel at airport FBO's. It costs a few dollars a gallon. Testing of fuel and oils is available at many locations just search for lube oil analysis. I work with diesel engines and we get tests done every 1000 hours. The chemtrails advocates should have done this a decade ago, and maybe they did, but never reported it. It's not up to us to do. If a toxic substance were in jet fuel, you'd think the ground crews at airports would be keeling over dead since 1997, though. They stand there waving the flights into parking. Mechanics, too. Maybe that simple logic is why chemtrailers never bothered?
 

Classified

New Member
And why is that strange?

Since there is no other source other than this passing mention, it really can only be seen as being a mistake. Read the full version of the Toxicological Profile:
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp24.pdf

It's mentioned as an additive for fuels (not jet fuel specifically)
Some barium compounds, such as barium carbonate, barium chloride, and barium hydroxide, are used to make ceramics, insect and rat poisons, and additives for oils and fuels; in the treatment of boiler water; in the production of barium greases; as a component in sealants, paper manufacturing, and sugar refining; in animal and vegetable oil refining; and in the protection of objects made of limestone from deterioration
Content from External Source
The "jet fuel" mention is the same as in the pamphlet:
Barium and its compounds are used in oil and gas drilling muds, automotive paints, stabilizers for plastics, case hardening steels, bricks, tiles, lubricating oils, and jet fuel as well as in various types of pesticides (Bodek et al. 1988; Venugopal and Luckey 1978; WHO 2001). The largest use of mined barite, which accounts for 94% of the total output, is oil and gas well drilling (USGS 2006). The rest of barite ore (or crude barium sulfate) is utilized frequently as a colorant in paint, as a flux to reduce melting temperature in the manufacture of glass, and as a filler in plastics, rubber, and brake linings as well as in the production of other barium compounds (Dibello et al. 2003). Such barium compounds as the carbonate, chloride, and hydroxide are important in the brick, ceramic, photographic, and chemical manufacturing industries (Bodek et al. 1988).
Content from External Source

It appears there is another source, Mick?

Traces of the element are
found in most surface and ground waters. It can also be produced by industry in oil and gas drilling
muds, smelting of copper, waste from coal-fired power plants, jet fuels, and automotive paints and
accessories

http://www.usbr.gov/pmts/water/publications/reportpdfs/Primer Files/08 - Barium.pdf

Is this another typo Mick? How many government agencies have stated this?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
It appears there is another source, Mick?

Is this another typo Mick? How many government agencies have stated this?

It's just another propagation of the same thing. It's explained above where this comes from - the 1960 tests of barium as a smoke suppressant.
 

Classified

New Member
It's just another propagation of the same thing. It's explained above where this comes from - the 1960 tests of barium as a smoke suppressant.

How many government documents is it going to take before you can accept you're wrong?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
How many government documents is it going to take before you can accept you're wrong?

One that gives a bit more detail, and is not just a passing mention based on a laundry list of uses from 50 years ago.

Do you think that jet fuel contains barium?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
There was also some research in the 1980s into using barium metal to deoxygenate jet fuel. It's filtered out though

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a205006.pdf

2.0 CHFMTCAL GETTERS
Chemical methods were the first approach evaluated during this
program. Among the chemical methods, "getters", metals or alloys
with chemically active surfaces, appeared attractive be cause they
react with oxygen to form insoluble oxides. They have been widely
used in the semiconductor and nuclear fuels industries. Many of
these are transition metals which were deemed unacceptable for this
application because of the potential for catalyzing reactions in
fuel. Barium metal, however, is a commonly used getter and looked
attractive. Barium reacts readily with oxygen and water, but the
reaction is not as exothermic as the reaction of other metals such
as sodium. The relevant reactions of barium are:

2Ba + 02 - 2BaO
Ba + H20 - BaO + H2
BaO + H20 - Ba(OH)2

Laboratory experiments were performed to determine the
effectiveness of this method. The initial experiments were
conducted with JP-5 in a threeneck round bottom flask. Two of the
necks contained stopcocks attached to ground glass joints. One
stopcock was used to admit nitrogen gas while the other was used
to vent the flask. The third neck held the probe for a Yellow
Springs Instrument International, Inc. model 58 dissolved oxygen
meter. One liter of JP-5 fuel was used. The barium metal was
purchased in 6 mm diameter sticks (granulated barium metal is not
currently available from laboratory suppliers). These sticks were
cut into pieces approximately 6 mm in length. The barium was
stored in oil under a nitrogen atmosphere in an attempt to prevent
its surface from oxidizing. The JP-5 fuel was saturated with air
prior to the experiment by bubbling air through it.
In the first experiment, fuel and barium were stirred together
in the flask under a nitrogen atmosphere. After 30 minutes, the
oxygen concentration had decreased to 50% of the initial concentration.
It was observed, however, that this result could be obtained
simply by stirring the fuel under a nitrogen atmosphere without the
barium metal. The presence of white solid did indicate that some
barium had reacted. Subsequent experiments were performed with air
initially present and no nitrogen purging of the flask.

In order to increase the exposed surface area of barium, the
threenecked flask was replaced with a blender. The lid was sealed
to the container to prevent air leakage after the deoxygenation
process began. The system was simplified by using cyclohexane
rather than JP-5. The cyclohexane was mixed with the pieces of
barium in the blender until the barium was broken into very small
particles. After 30 minutes, the oxygen concentration was 4% of
the initial concentration. The absolute concentration of oxygen
in the cyclohexane could not be determined by our measuring
instrumentation which gives a relative indication, however,
assuming the air saturated concentration to be 50 ppm then 4% would
be 2 ppm. This value may well reflect the air-tightness of the
blender rather than the limit of the deoxygenation capability of
the barium. A white solid was observed in the liquid. At the
conclusion of the experiment, solid barium metal remained in the
container. The white solid was filtered from the liquid with
Whatman No. 2V filter paper. This paper retains solids larger than
8 microns in size. The filtered solution was observed to be clear
and did not scatter light, thus indicating that all solid
by-products had been removed by the filter. It was also observed
that a coating of white solid remained on the walls of the
container.

Calculations of the quantity of barium metal required to
stoichiometrically react with 10,000 gallons of fuel with 50 ppm
oxygen yield a value of 35 lbs of barium. Additionally, twenty-two
lbs of barium react with 70 ppm of water in 10,000 gallons of fuel.
The actual quantity of barium metal required to react with both the
oxygen and water is less than the total of these two values because
barium oxide itself reacts with water. Barium sells commercially
for approximately $20/lb which is in the range of economically
feasibility. However, barium is costly enough that recycling
technique should be explored for large throughput operations.
Content from External Source
It does not appear to actually have been used though.
 

Classified

New Member
"It does not appear to have been used" is your proof of non presence?

You said there is only one source. Now I will provide you with a third source.

Uses
Barium and its compounds are used in oil and gas drilling muds, automotive paints, plastics stabilizers, case hardening steels, bricks, tiles, lubricating oils, jet fuel, and various types of pesticides. Barium sulfate is sometimes used by doctors, to perform medical tests and take x-rays of the stomach and intestines.

http://www.idph.state.ia.us/idph_universalhelp/MainContent.aspx?glossaryInd=0&TOCId=%7B8492EFB9-2A47-4C9F-A419-B34DACF88624%7D
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Was that referring back to the other link? Did anyone in Iowa verify that?

It looks to me that they just reworded the government pamphlet

General Populations
The general population is exposed to barium through consumption of drinking water and food, usually at low levels.
Barium sulfate is frequently utilized as a benign, radiopaque aid to x-ray diagnosis in colorectal and some upper gastrointestinal examinations.
Barium and compounds are used in oil and gas drilling muds, automotive paints, stabilizers for plastics, case hardening steels, bricks, tiles, lubricating oils, and jet fuel as well as in various types of pesticides
Content from External Source
To be that is NOT additional evidence that it is.

Why don't you buy some jet fuel and have it tested?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
"It does not appear to have been used" is your proof of non presence?

You said there is only one source. Now I will provide you with a third source.

Uses
Barium and its compounds are used in oil and gas drilling muds, automotive paints, plastics stabilizers, case hardening steels, bricks, tiles, lubricating oils, jet fuel, and various types of pesticides. Barium sulfate is sometimes used by doctors, to perform medical tests and take x-rays of the stomach and intestines.

http://www.idph.state.ia.us/idph_un...&TOCId={8492EFB9-2A47-4C9F-A419-B34DACF88624}

Which is just a cut and paste of the ATSDR, as is this EPA mention, which gives the reference.

http://www.epa.gov/osw/hazard/tsd/td/combust/tech/risk/master2.pdf

Barium is a naturally occurring element that is found in the earth's crust. Barium enters
the environment primarily through the weathering of rocks and minerals. The general population
is exposed to barium through consumption of drinking water and foods, usually at low levels.
Barium and its compounds are used in oil and gas drilling muds, automotive paints, stabilizers
for plastics, and jet fuel (ATSDR, 1990).
Content from External Source
It's all the same source, the same mistake.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Here's a 1975 study that found trace amounts of barium in Jet fuel:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00022470.1975.10470131

Samples of ASTM type A jet fuel were analyzed for trace element content by instrumental neutron activation techniques. Forty-nine elements were sought. Only ten, aluminum, gold, indium, lanthanum, titanium, vanadium, barium, dysprosium, tellurium, and uranium, were observed at levels above the detection limits encountered; of these only aluminum, titanium, and barium were present at concentrations greater than 0.1 ppm. Estimates of exhaust gas. concentrations are made, and the ambient contribution at or near airports is calculated by using the Los Angeles International Airport dispersion model. It is shown that the ambient contribution is about an order of magnitude below typical urban levels for virtually all elements sought.
Content from External Source


That's not added though, like all those other metals it's just naturally occurring and ambient levels.
 
Last edited:

F4Jock

Senior Member.
More interesting data about Barium: Note the soil concentrations hence content in dust.



Biomarkers
Barium can be measured in bone, blood, urine, and feces. However, there are no data correlating barium levels in these tissues with specific exposure levels.
The concentration of barium in ambient air is estimated to be <0.05 μg/m3 .
Sediment and Soil
Environmental Levels
Barium is found in most soils at concentrations ranging from about 15 to 3,500 ppm and mean values ranging between 265 and 835 ppm, depending on soil type.
Water
Air
Barium concentrations in drinking water typically average 30 μg/L, but can average as high as 302 μg/L.
Reference
Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR). 2007. Toxicological Profile for Barium. Atlanta, GA: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Public Health Services.
Content from External Source
 

Classified

New Member
So you just claimed that the statement of barium presence in jet fuel by the government was a mistake, made by 3 different agencies, then you provide a study showing trace amounts of barium in jet fuel.

So there is barium in jet fuel Mick?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
So you just claimed that the statement of barium presence in jet fuel by the government was a mistake, made by 3 different agencies, then you provide a study showing trace amounts of barium in jet fuel.

So there is barium in jet fuel Mick?

It's not USED in jet fuel - i.e. it's not added to jet fuel.

It's in jet fuel in normal background amounts, like it's in everything. There's less barium in jet exhaust than in the air you are breathing right now.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
TRACE amounts, not added. That is the difference.

'That's not added though, like all those other metals it's just naturally occurring and ambient levels.'

Many things occur in 'trace amounts'. Take the allowance of 'bug parts' in food. One weevil going through a flour mill will become thousands of parts. The bug parts were not added, they just happen naturally. I didn't understand that either, until a microbiology field trip to the FDA offices and I got to see what a 'bug part' was. I looked through a microscope and got to see a part of a hair from a weevil's leg.
 

F4Jock

Senior Member.
So you just claimed that the statement of barium presence in jet fuel by the government was a mistake, made by 3 different agencies, then you provide a study showing trace amounts of barium in jet fuel.

So there is barium in jet fuel Mick?

Minuscule amounts compared to the ground in, say, New Mexico. Take a look at the figures I provided above then start worrying about going outside in a high wind, a wind that would disperse any solely aerial barium in jet exhaust but put large amounts in the air from dust.
 

Classified

New Member
It's not USED in jet fuel - i.e. it's not added to jet fuel.

It's in jet fuel in normal background amounts, like it's in everything. There's less barium in jet exhaust than in the air you are breathing right now.

So does the minuscule amount of barium from jet exhaust not add to the total barium presence in the air?
 

justanairlinepilot

Senior Member.
The U.S. Navy ran smoke-suppressant tests on gas turbine engines using an organometallic material containing barium and found the material effective in reducing smoke. However, during the tests intolerable amounts of barium carbonate deposit adhered to the turbine and other flow passages. 22
Content from External Source
I highlighted that part because deposition in the turbine section would drastically reduce engine life which is why the additives chemtrailers claim are added to fuel could not be used.


Duh!! Not to you Solrey, but really? Barium in a jet engine? Come on!
 

justanairlinepilot

Senior Member.
We are discussing barium, not trust. Please try to stay on topic.


I think it's perfectly on topic. You cite government documents...written by human beings...who often make mistakes. Most conspiracy theorists don't trust the government, and I'm taking a leap here, but I'm assuming you don't trust the government.

If I'm wrong, you trust the government, you trust the EPA and other organizations regulating jet fuel and the aircraft it is placed into.

There may be barium in jet fuel, in finite amounts, but it's not there to reduce the population, or whatever the conspiracy theorists proclaim.
 

F4Jock

Senior Member.
We are discussing barium, not trust. Please try to stay on topic.

You're missing his point. What "Pilot" is saying is that you are using a source you have otherwise stated you mistrust to validate a conclusion you've made. It thus puts in question the validity of both your argument and your conclusion.
 

Classified

New Member
You're missing his point. What "Pilot" is saying is that you are using a source you have otherwise stated you mistrust to validate a conclusion you've made. It thus puts in question the validity of both your argument and your conclusion.

Please provide me where I stated anything about mistrust.

Why are you trying to frame me into a conversation that doesnt exist?

Is that how this metabunk team operates?
 
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