Help me! Wife is Chemtrailing...

My wife has recently become obsessed with the chemtrail issue. We live on the Central Coast of California and she has been quite troubled by the drought conditions here. She was focused on global warming for a few years (which I think is reasonable), but now it has switched to chemtrails. I'm not sure any evidence will talk her out of it, but I want to at least try. Thanks to this site, I already pointed out that a "whistle blower" she mentioned wasn't really blowing a whistle and a Ph.D. wasn't really a Ph.D. It hasn't made much of a dent. The problem is, she looks up at the sky and sees contrails and planes and is now even taking pictures of them. The whole thing seems to have not the least bit of merit to me, but I am not enough of an aviation expert to counter every little point brought up. Specifically, when she looks up into the sky, she see planes blowing contrails, some days more often than others and sometimes persisting longer than others. She contrasts these to other planes that do not seem to have any contrails and days that there are not contrails. I understand the aspects of humidity and noted that cloud cover was heavier today, for example, which should explain why contrails are likely to persist, but she wasn't buying it. I'm assuming that the planes are commercial airlines flying from LA to SF or SF to LA. They might also be flying to and from the small airport in San Luis Obispo, which is nearby. I'm thinking the local planes are flying lower and thus do not have contrails due to the dry air at lower altitudes around here, or are smaller planes less likely to do so. Does anyone know if there are specific flight routes from LA to SF (and points north beyond) that might change from day to day so that planes are overhead one day, but over the sea or elsewhere on another? How many flights would be heading in that direction? Also, would a plane that is not a standard commercial aircraft be able to fly without anyone being able to identify it? How obvious would it be that something is a commercial plane vs. a military plane? Does anyone have any simple points I can make to her along these lines? I won't say I'm optimistic, but I want to at least try to break her out of this cult, as it puts a strain on our marriage. Thanks in advance.
 

Trailblazer

Moderator
Staff member
As TEEJ suggests, Flightradar24 is a good site and app to use to identify planes. If you can show your wife on the computer/phone screen that the plane leaving a big trail is just a passenger plane full of people, that may allay her fears.

You can find a map of flight paths at http://www.skyvector.com.

Here is a snapshot of the Central Coast area.

upload_2015-1-22_22-32-19.png


When using Flightradar24, bear in mind that (a) not every plane is shown, and (b) planes laying contrails are often further away than you might think. A plane flying 20 miles away horizontally still looks pretty much "overhead".


Also remember, planes flying to or from local airports will probably be too low to create contrails, so the trails you see will be flying between more distant points.


Here I have set a filter to show only planes flying above 28,000 feet. This is the live picture right now. This one is going from Honolulu to LAX. The one just to its north is from Santa Barbara to San Francisco.

upload_2015-1-22_22-38-37.png
 
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Thanks for the help! That App is definitely worth $3.99 for a chance at some peace of mind (for both of us). I am looking forward to a plane passing by and casually identifying it to her. I am cautiously optimistic...
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
My wife has recently become obsessed with the chemtrail issue. We live on the Central Coast of California and she has been quite troubled by the drought conditions here. She was focused on global warming for a few years (which I think is reasonable), but now it has switched to chemtrails. I'm not sure any evidence will talk her out of it, but I want to at least try. Thanks to this site, I already pointed out that a "whistle blower" she mentioned wasn't really blowing a whistle and a Ph.D. wasn't really a Ph.D. It hasn't made much of a dent. The problem is, she looks up at the sky and sees contrails and planes and is now even taking pictures of them. The whole thing seems to have not the least bit of merit to me, but I am not enough of an aviation expert to counter every little point brought up. Specifically, when she looks up into the sky, she see planes blowing contrails, some days more often than others and sometimes persisting longer than others. She contrasts these to other planes that do not seem to have any contrails and days that there are not contrails. I understand the aspects of humidity and noted that cloud cover was heavier today, for example, which should explain why contrails are likely to persist, but she wasn't buying it. I'm assuming that the planes are commercial airlines flying from LA to SF or SF to LA. They might also be flying to and from the small airport in San Luis Obispo, which is nearby. I'm thinking the local planes are flying lower and thus do not have contrails due to the dry air at lower altitudes around here, or are smaller planes less likely to do so. Does anyone know if there are specific flight routes from LA to SF (and points north beyond) that might change from day to day so that planes are overhead one day, but over the sea or elsewhere on another? How many flights would be heading in that direction? Also, would a plane that is not a standard commercial aircraft be able to fly without anyone being able to identify it? How obvious would it be that something is a commercial plane vs. a military plane? Does anyone have any simple points I can make to her along these lines? I won't say I'm optimistic, but I want to at least try to break her out of this cult, as it puts a strain on our marriage. Thanks in advance.
Take her to Canada for 2 weeks this winter for vacation. She will see some days the cartrails are barely visible (dry air so evaporate quickly...sublimate actually, but same difference), and somedays the cartrails are thick and obvious, and somedays the cartrails persist longer than other days. This difference is due to humidity levels basically.

While it can be ddrier at lower altitudes, primarily planes at lower altitude dont leave trails because the temperature is too warm. Contrails are ice crystals. If it isnt cold enough you wont get ice. I think contrails have to be -40 F.

It varies depending where on the planet you are but a basic idea:

nasa.gif


Also check out Contrail Science. Great easy to find info there : http://contrailscience.com/
 

Rico

Senior Member.
Sir, I think it's now time to file a divorce!

------

Sorry, I was just joking!

I think the best thing for you to do is to learn as much as you can about what causes contrails and a bit about atmospheric science. If she trusts you, hopefully at some point she will figure out your understanding of the issue.

To answer some of your other questions:

I'm thinking the local planes are flying lower and thus do not have contrails due to the dry air at lower altitudes around here, or are smaller planes less likely to do so.

Generally, contrails won't occur when relative humidity is low. At lower altitudes, the temperature also tends to be a lot warmer than at altitude. Cold air does not hold water vapor as well as warm air, and thus why it is likelier to see contrails at altitude. To put this to scale, it can be as cold as -56.5 degrees Celsius in the upper troposphere where some jets cruise at. That air won't hold much vapor at all. It'll condense and likely turn to ice crystals.

Does anyone know if there are specific flight routes from LA to SF (and points north beyond) that might change from day to day so that planes are overhead one day, but over the sea or elsewhere on another?

I don't know too much about LAX and SFO from personal experience, outside from the fact that it's incredibly busy there. One thing I know for certain though--departure and arrival runways will change depending on wind direction, so what you say is quite possible. The airspace is also heavily controlled, so it is not unusual to see aircraft all over for traffic spacing and the like.

How many flights would be heading in that direction?

You'd have to look up the airline schedules to figure that one out. There is quite a few, from multiple carriers.

Also, would a plane that is not a standard commercial aircraft be able to fly without anyone being able to identify it?

Pretty much all traffic going above 18,000 feet are operating in controlled airspace (Class A airspace) under the prying eyes of Air Traffic Controllers. The only way an aircraft can sneak around up there is if it has it's transponder off. Keep in mind though, that especially in a busy metropolis, there are other traffic operating in that airspace as well. Other pilots would be able to see inconspicuous operations if they are not in clouds.

(It is also worth to note that having a transponder off does not make the aircraft totally invisible on radar. Just on Secondary Surveillance Radar that ATC generally use. They also have Primary Surveillance Radar, which can in fact pick up aircraft even if they don't have a transponder.)

How obvious would it be that something is a commercial plane vs. a military plane?

We don't have much of a military where I live... but that said, identifying an aircraft type generally isn't that difficult with the right lens. A clear view of the bottom profile usually offers plenty of information. Military aircraft also tends to fly in formation a lot.

Another thing you can do for your wife is maybe take her to the airport and chat with some off duty pilots who may stop to sit down at some fast food. At least from my experience, there are actually a lot of experienced pilots out there who have probably at some point in their career come across the chemtrail hoax. They may be able to straighten things out.
 
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JDubyah

Member
You might want to also correct of early incorrect assumptions that are passed around as fact in the chemtrail circles.

The main one is that contrails don't persist. Conspiracy theories pass this statement around as fact with nothing to back it up. The fact is, contrails can a) not form any 'clouds' b) form 'clouds' that vanish quickly c) form 'clouds' that stay a long time.

So if you're seeing any of these, it's all the same thing. Jet exhaust, like car exhaust, like human breath, produces moisture in all cases. But depending on the height, temperature, and humidity at that height and temperature, that water can either be visible or invisible, and if visible (contrail), it can either 'dry up' quickly and disappear, or stay around longer like other clouds do.

Tell her 'contrails don't persist' is more like an urban legend or a rumor, or gossip - but that science says they can and do, because they can and do.

If she doubts that, then mention that clouds are water vapor, and they stick around. And fog is water vapor, and it stays around. So why not water vapor produced by planes?
 

Mackdog

Senior Member.
Also you may want to have her visit contrailscience.com which goes in depth on the contrail vs. chemtrail issue. It has a wealth of information, and it was where I started a couple of years ago when I set out to debunk chemtrails and other conspiracy theories.

Also ask her.."what makes you think that that 'trail' in the sky contains chemicals beyond normal jet exhaust"...or something to that effect.
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
The problem is, she looks up at the sky and sees contrails and planes and is now even taking pictures of them. The whole thing seems to have not the least bit of merit to me, but I am not enough of an aviation expert to counter every little point brought up. Specifically, when she looks up into the sky, she see planes blowing contrails, some days more often than others and sometimes persisting longer than others. She contrasts these to other planes that do not seem to have any contrails and days that there are not contrails. I understand the aspects of humidity and noted that cloud cover was heavier today, for example, which should explain why contrails are likely to persist, but she wasn't buying it.

Start with the basics- explain to her what a contrail is, why they form or not and and why they sometimes persist and sometimes don't- even in the same sky.

Contrails are essentially clouds- cirrus (ice) clouds...and as such are subject to the variability of the atmosphere just like clouds. Why are there clouds in one spot but not another? different types of clouds in the same sky? Some days no clouds etc...

Does she think persisting trails are a new phenomenon? If so, show her this for perspective:

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/pre-1995-persistent-contrail-archive.487/page-8#post-142094
 
Thanks for all this, folks. I'm waiting for the right moment to spring the app on her. I sneak in a little science here and there, but it doesn't go over well, and while I have some background in science, truth be told, I knew nothing of this subject prior to a few weeks ago when she started talking about it with me (presumably after spending a lot of time exploring it before she talked to me, since she knows a lot of names in the field), so if I don't get it exactly right, it only proves her point further (for example, I thought the "chemtrail" planes she was pointing at were coming from the local airport and they obviously aren't based on what I'm seeing on the app). If you get caught up in one contradictory fact, it kills your argument. I have no personal interest in this subject, but I'm forced to gain some quick expertise, so this site is a godsend.
 

Auldy

Senior Member.
It is healthy for husbands and wives to enjoy the occasional hobby together. Chemtrail conspiracy theory propagation is not one of them.

Try bungy jumping
 
Sir, I think it's now time to file a divorce!

------

Sorry, I was just joking!

Ha ha, times like this can be trying, for sure, but we will probably work it out. She is an extremely intelligent woman, but occasionally gets on jags like this and it is really hard to make any headway when she does. Marriage is not for the weak...
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I would recommend getting a book that can be used to explain contrails, both for you, and to show to here. A great one I use is only $4, including shipping, and was published in 1981, well before "chemtrails" were supposed to have started.

http://www.amazon.com/Clouds-World-Complete-Encyclopedia-Island/dp/0395240808

The text regarding contrails covers about 99% of the misconceptions regarding "normal" contrails, and I've highlighted the key ones.

Ideally though, you'd show these quotes in the physical book, and show the date at the front of the book (1981), and then note that every other book on clouds for the last 70 years says the same thing.

 
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I would recommend getting a book that can be used to explain contrails, both for you, and to show to here. A great one I use is only $4, including shipping, and was published in 1981, well before "chemtrails" were supposed to have started.
[/ex]
Thanks for the tip. I just put in the order (paid a little extra for the first edition).
 

GregMc

Senior Member.
You could show her this promotional film from 1960. Ask her why an airline company would show their own passenger jets leaving trails in a promotional film decades before her Gurus claim such trails even existed.

If these trails are meant to be some secret evil plot begun in the late 1990s, ask her why they were so common 30 years earlier.
Ask her Why Batman and Robin weren't trying to figure them out with their batcomputer.
https://superherocosplay.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/1966-batman-and-robin_1339075867.jpg
 

Mackdog

Senior Member.
You could show her this promotional film from 1960. Ask her why an airline company would show their own passenger jets leaving trails in a promotional film decades before her Gurus claim such trails even existed.

If these trails are meant to be some secret evil plot begun in the late 1990s, ask her why they were so common 30 years earlier.
Ask her Why Batman and Robin weren't trying to figure them out with their batcomputer.
https://superherocosplay.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/1966-batman-and-robin_1339075867.jpg
I actually have one question about the contrails being made by the 747 (I think its a 747) in that pic..why don't we see 4 contrails when we see a 4 engine jet making contrails? I always see 2 main ones far from the plane and maybe 4 right behind the plane when I look at them..I guess it could be that the picture was taken so close to the contrail?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I actually have one question about the contrails being made by the 747 (I think its a 747) in that pic..why don't we see 4 contrails when we see a 4 engine jet making contrails? I always see 2 main ones far from the plane and maybe 4 right behind the plane when I look at them..I guess it could be that the picture was taken so close to the contrail?

That's a painting, not a photo. The contrails of a 747 have a distinctive curl to them, the outer trails curl up and over the lower trails that spread out. The two trails you see far behind it are the "hybrid" trails caught up in and enhanced by the wake vortices.

 

Mackdog

Senior Member.
That's a painting, not a photo. The contrails of a 747 have a distinctive curl to them, the outer trails curl up and over the lower trails that spread out:

Ok, now that I look at it closer I see its a painting..looked like a picture before. :)
 

derwoodii

Senior Member.
if you can some how,, ask,,, suggest,, say or convince her sign up here. She can place her suspicions - concerns to the group. MB politeness policy will see no unpleasantness and takes you out of the debate stress strain.
 

GregMc

Senior Member.
Another thing that is definitely useful as Mick suggested is a book. A real world object from the past you can hold in your hand and not dismiss as some photoshop disinfo online. My sister in law was well down the chemtrail rabbit hole when I handed her my 2nd hand copy of Scorer's "Clouds of the world" from 1972.
https://plus.google.com/photos/107393796095434664991/albums/5363662113705530081?banner=pwa
Mine was an old library book from the Lawrence W Tyree Library, Santa Fe Community College Gainsville Florida.
You can easily get cheap copies on Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Clouds-World-Complete-Encyclopedia-Island/dp/0811719618

For a while for her it was total "this does not compute" confusion and bewilderment.
Months of reading internet nonsense and listening to her hippy friends had made her adamant that no such trails existed in the past and any online documentation was supposedly faked digitally but actually holding a faded cover , stained and yellowing printed book with old library stamps still in it was shattering.
She was totally "this can't exist"... "something is wrong here" and only then did the refutations start to take hold as she literally shook the book, seeming to test it was there and not a dream.
If she's literally holding something in her hand it's probably much harder to dismiss contrary evidence as not being real.
I also have an old book simply titled "airplanes" from 1973 by David Mondey isbn 0706402715 that my grandmother had given me as a kid and it also had a couple of pictures of long contrails like this:

Photo on 2015-01-23 at 19.41.jpg
Photo on 2015-01-23 at 19.41.jpg


If you have some older relatives with booksheves with those rows of old yellow National Geographic magazines you can usually go through old 1970s editions and within an hour or so of searching find quite a few pics with large contrails or contrail overcast in them. Get her to watch the Wally-world rollercoaster scene from National Lampoon's vacation preferably from an ancient vhs copy. It has a contrail grid in the background of the scene visible in a few shots.
 
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NoParty

Senior Member.
I hope I'm not the only one who, when first reading:
"Wife is Chemtrailing..."
pictured a housewife trying to approximate the
rough profile and flight characteristics of a 747...
and flitting about the flat, strafing the carpet with barium & aluminum
 

Trailspotter

Senior Member.
The problem is, she looks up at the sky and sees contrails and planes and is now even taking pictures of them.

Perhaps, you could steer her into making time-lapse movies of the sky. There is an option for that in iPhone and iPad cameras and, possibly, it exists in other brands' smartphones and tablets. Time-lapse movies is arguably the best way to demonstrate that individual contrails do not stay in place where they were laid but are carried away by the high-altitude wind across the sky and go out of sight within an hour or so. They also would show her the new contrails being laid along the same air traffic routes before being blown away.
 

TWCobra

Senior Member.
I actually have one question about the contrails being made by the 747 (I think its a 747) in that pic..why don't we see 4 contrails when we see a 4 engine jet making contrails? I always see 2 main ones far from the plane and maybe 4 right behind the plane when I look at them..I guess it could be that the picture was taken so close to the contrail?

Here is one of mine showing the 747 phenomenon that Mick explained. Basically two trails on each wing join together in the powerful vortex created. (which we avoid whenever possible).

 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Another thing that is definitely useful as Mick suggested is a book. A real world object from the past you can hold in your hand and not dismiss as some photoshop disinfo online. My sister in law was well down the chemtrail rabbit hole when I handed her my 2nd hand copy of Scorer's "Clouds of the world" from 1972.
https://plus.google.com/photos/107393796095434664991/albums/5363662113705530081?banner=pwa
Mine was an old library book from the Lawrence W Tyree Library, Santa Fe Community College Gainsville Florida.
You can easily get cheap copies on Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Clouds-World-Complete-Encyclopedia-Island/dp/0811719618

Yes, that's my other go-to book. It has a great selection of photos and descriptions. It's also got a greater authority of age (1972 vs. 1981). It's just a bit big to carry around, and more spendy. Get both if possible. I have two copies of both, ready to donate to any worthy causes I meet.

I took a copy of COTW to a chemtrailers table at Venice Beach. At first they were very insistent that no contrail had ever persisted before about 1995, and then I showed them COTW, and they were a bit confused. They were all true believers though, so little progress was made. And then one of them found that the library my copy was from was an air-force library, and that proved it was fake, or something.

Anyway, Greg, that's great about your sister in law, how is she doing now?
 
if you can some how,, ask,,, suggest,, say or convince her sign up here. She can place her suspicions - concerns to the group. MB politeness policy will see no unpleasantness and takes you out of the debate stress strain.
This site has already been poisoned as "government shill" material.
 
Not a frickin' contrail (or "chemtrail") in the sky today. I'm set to show the plane app to the wife and I can barely see the planes, much less any contrails today. I assume it's the weather. A bit windy here, at least at sea level.
 

GregMc

Senior Member.
Hi Mick. Well so far no more worrying about aircraft from her . The old books helped immensely. That was just before we left for the states last xmas and almost met you at the Wharf. Other things like vaccines and fluoride are an uphill battle as the community on the NSW north coast is the epicentre for kooky beliefs in Oz and peer influences are very potent. The fact that fluoride is naturally in seawater factor and seaspray seems to have an effect in blunting the usual dogma but the idea of an "un-natural" fluoride ion and a "natural" one is an interesting response. I guess a bit like the concept of "memory" in homeopathy. That whole alternative lifestyle community has huge misconceptions about almost everything. It was suggested that rocks and crystals were "organic" because they were "natural" and we need to declare gemstones/rocks to quarantine at airports etc because they might have caught diseases... Some fascinating ideas. I've another family member very similar too. Into UFOs, simultaneously believes moon missions were faked AND astronauts found alien structures on the moon. Seems to switch from one to the other like a toggle and will never allow himself to compare the contradictory beliefs simultaneously. Instantly believes any CT as long as it contradicts "the MSM".
 

GregMc

Senior Member.
Not a frickin' contrail (or "chemtrail") in the sky today. I'm set to show the plane app to the wife and I can barely see the planes, much less any contrails today. I assume it's the weather. A bit windy here, at least at sea level.


That's an interesting thing to show though . When the sky is full of planes yet you simply can't see them due to "empty field myopia"
It's a common complaint: "If it's just passenger planes, where have all the planes gone.. having a day off?"
The planes are still there but it often takes something large like a contrail to allow your eyes to focus at that distance and follow to the tiny spec in front of it.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Yes, that is a problem. I can only use this site for reference and present the case without referring to it.

Hopefully that should not be too hard, as we try to provide references. Let me know though if there's a topic where you think more independent references would be useful.
 

Rico

Senior Member.
Indeed, one of the problems with using Metabunk is that this site is perhaps one of the more vocal and obvious places you can find that directly confronts the chemtrail issue. I actually see Metabunk brought up a lot on youtube comments, and I always see comments like "you are referencing that 'shill' site?"

It probably doesn't help either that us members swarm every thread that pops up. I'm guessing that a lot of us are just bored people :D

That said, there are a lot of other good sites out there that can help in debunking the chemtrail myth. Typing in chemtrail and skeptic in a google search will probably bring up more than a few hits. NASA has a few good resources in explaining how contrails work as well, as do some meteorological sites.

Ultimately, the key points to debunking the chemtrail theory has to do with:
-Understanding how contrails work
-Understanding what the atmosphere is like at altitude
-Understanding how water changes state with temperature
-Understanding how aviation works
-Assessing the credibility of claims and the people who make the claims
-Assessing the plausibility and practicality of some wide-scale government coverup

If a person can wrap themselves around all those points, I see no reason why the belief would continue.

Another good resource you can use is Aviation Weather textbooks. Those generally are not too hard to find. Here is an FAA one: http://www.aviationweather.ws/
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
I would recommend your wife take a Flying Lesson.

MANY local airports offer this service. About $99 USD.

It is marketed as an Introductory Flight Lesson....no matter what Introductory airplane a particular Flight School chooses to use AS their "Primary Trainer" airplane.

We ALL, AS pilots....start from the "basics" and BUILD upon those basics....step-by-step.....
 

derwoodii

Senior Member.
This site has already been poisoned as "government shill" material.


that's a shame and obviously an incorrect claim but its hard to convince a mind that set otherwise. if possible without conflict point out that CT chemtrails sites more often seek funds donations or have shops selling items based upon the false lie & not so MB. If i recall MB has 200 plus contributors and ten of thousand registered,,,,, where is that thread showing site traffic and members??

One angle I been trying to make head way is finding a collective picture of just how many staff are involved in say a 787 to fly from design construction maintenance to the cockpit i.e. need to know and not see anything that resemble the CT claim & not say is beyond belief

This is example picture but i suspect @ Boeing or at Airbus is picture of 300 hands on souls beside a single A380 - 787. All of whom would need to know and not tell if CT claims were not just BS.

united_8.jpg
 
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derwoodii

Senior Member.
sos weedy :) dear sir you have me at a disadvantage, i think i fixed it thou as a plane spotter i'm deficient..


hope my shill payments not docked this week i need the $ for NWO bills and costs
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
No worries....it's just that my experience in the airline industry gives me a bit of a "leg-up" on that invisible "ladder".

(Those are most likely former Continental employees, posing for the photo in a post "United-Continental" merger scenario).

ETA: Also as a "spotter", I can help with the "geek" factor. Please look at the nose gear door. The "ship number" is on it...also the letters 'ETOPS'...which signify it is qualified for Extended Twin-Engine Operations. (Quite commonplace, nowadays....and there are various "levels" of 'ETOPS' qualifications that will take too much time to explain).

Also (ETA) this might confuse some "spotters"....in the old days at Continental our DC-9s had "ship numbers" that began with the numeral '9'. Painted on the nose gear doors, of course.

EVERY airplane type had its own leading numeral...and as the fleet mix changed, so did the assigned numeral. Obviously, Continental retired its DC-9s many years ago, so that numerical digit was re-assigned. Complicated, but only a bit....makes sense, in retrospect.
 
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