GMO conspiracy theories

farbot

New Member
Is this thread just about roundup then? I read a lot of different subjects within the gmo-family. And some people mentioning that because it is the Seralini-paper it is almost by default faulty. So I felt inclined to post that response in this GMO thread.

Hoping that fair and balanced wasn't how they see those words in the Fox News realm.

And wishing you a good day, if I might add.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
The Serelini study is FLAWED at it's roots. Your source is BIASED against GMO. If you wouldn't accept something from Monsanto, Bayer or Sygerta, WHY would accept the comments of those biased on the other side?



 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
Is this thread just about roundup then?

Well the Seralini paper looks at the health effects of roundup consumption as well as roundup ready maize (maize genetically modified to withstand roundup) consumption in rats. So if you're talking about Seralini papers you're talking about roundup, hence my question. Carienn's post shows us why the science of that paper is shoddy, and I have reasons why similar papers by Seralini and other authors are also flawed. Like I said, if you think there is a reason Seralini's claims might actually be correct, please post it.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
How do you feel about the GMO papaya? and the Arctic apple that has been submitted for approval?

They are working on an American Chestnut that would be resistant to the blight that killed them out.

Then there is Golden rice, and an improved cassava
 

solrey

Senior Member.
On the Seralini-study. Just found this open letter that discusses the study and the aftermath (in defense of the study) They take the viewpoint that science is more and more influenced in a profit-driven world.

As we say in Dutch: just throwing a stick in the hen house...

Seralini has just been thwacked with a really big stick...

Controversial Seralini GMO-rats paper to be retracted

The Seralini paper is being retracted due to the same flaws noted in this thread.
 

dunbar

Active Member
 
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Dan Wilson

Senior Member.

There are more problems in the paper than the number of rats used, which, despite what you posted, is still an issue. I'm more concerned about the actual science of the paper rather than who seems to have what interest on which side. Are there any more reasons you think the paper shouldn't be retracted?
 

dunbar

Active Member
Well, if we aren't going to be reasonable and instead just go around dismissing published peer reviewed papers out of hand and without grounds, then I just dismiss your dismissal and that's that. You'll have to make at least an attempt at a cogent substantive argument that addresses all the legitimate concerns and rebuttals laid out above before we can proceed any further.

Ten things you need to know about the Séralini study
http://gmoseralini.org/introduction-to-scientists-support-seralini/
http://gmoseralini.org/introduction-to-scientists-support-seralini/
Scientists support Séralini: Introduction
 
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Pete Tar

Senior Member.
'out of hand and without grounds'?????

The grounds and concerns with methodology have been clearly stated.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
There are 'scientists' that believe in creationism. You look to the EXPERTS in the field and without a single holdout, they have ALL discredited the Serelini 'study'. Not on simple one thing, but on multiple parts of the 'study'.

What I find wrong it if someone connected to a study 'toured Monsanto 10 years ago' or has anything that can be spun into a connection, they scream about it, while ignoring that the ONLY folks that support the flawed 'studies' they like to support have strong ties to the organic food industry and to anti GMO groups. Heck the Carmen study was conducted on the farm of an organic seed dealer. How biased is that?
 

solrey

Senior Member.
What about those Sprague-Dawley rats?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/521452

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/33/11/2768

Note the size of the control group.

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/16/3/194

A spontaneous tumor incidence of up to 81 percent in SD rats. Very small test groups and a teensy weensy control group. There are other issues with the paper as well but those two are the deal breakers. Considering plant genetics is a small specialized field the chances that somebody at some time in their careers worked for a company associated with the biotech industry are pretty high. The Seralini study does not stand up to scrutiny and MAM is straight up propaganda.
 

dunbar

Active Member


 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
A handful of folks---how many are even qualified to comment on the Serelini study, support him. Against them are all the creditable peer review groups. Not a few, but those representing 1000s of researchers, not just in the US, but in the EU, in France , in the UK. In countries that are NOT GMO friendly.


http://academicsreview.org/2012/09/scientists-smell-a-rat-in-fraudulent-study/





 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.

All I see here is politics and finger pointing. I don't care how many people support what side or what one side says about the interests of the other. What do you have to say about the science? What about the paper makes it one that should not have been retracted? Talk about the paper, please.

The main rebuttals to the criticisms that you have posted are about the time the study continued and the number of rats used. There is a reason that studies like this are normally done on a 90-day trial. After too long, these rats will develop tumors spontaneously. You can even see this in Seralini's paper in figure 2. These results are insignificant because you can't discern, especially with this small sample size, whether or not the tumors were spontaneous or actually caused by the GMO/roundup.
In fact, the only real conclusions you can draw at all from the data in this paper is that if you're a male drinking water laced with roundup, you might live longer than if you were drinking normal water and that the more GMO/roundup you consume, the longer you will live longer compared to if you consumed less of it. And even those conclusions would not be sound. The data just does't make sense, there is no strong correlation to be found in these extremely messy graphs. You can see this in figure 1.

In both of these figures you can see that the control groups always suffered from tumors and mortalities along with the variable groups. I would predict that if the control groups were bigger, the controls would show even more similar numbers to the variable groups.
 

Bill

Senior Member.



Edited because the list of signatories is in the links.

You are standing in a burning building denying it is on fire. You need to accept that this study is flawed and move on to other evidence. It was a study designed to arrive at a specific conclusion. The articles you've picked as a show of support are an example of spin trying save a study GMO opponents were to quick to laud. They even show an attempt to rally support based on French nationalist pride rather than the quality of the study.
 
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Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Sounds like Seralini could have made an honest mistake, and now the paper is retracted. Papers get retracted, then experiments can be run again with better methodology. If you are actually familiar with science, one paper doesn't mean much, repeatability is always required for a firm conclusion anyways.

Seralini's paper never was the end-all-be-all. He can run experiments the rest of his life, right? All this means is that a better experiment can be made which will be more airtight and designed to avoid all the criticisms. Seralini should be happy that so many have found ways he can improve his methods, and simply implement them, then report the results. That is the way of science.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Happened across this, somewhat dated but an example of some very good things to come from GMOs:
UCR Biochemist Goes to Washington with High-Protein Corn
Daniel Gallie’s findings propose a useful approach to feed the world’s growing population
Enlarge
Daniel Gallie, professor of biochemistry, will present his research on high-protein corn before a congressional committee in Washington, D.C., Sept. 23.

RIVERSIDE, Calif. — Corn with twice its usual content of protein and oil and about half its usual carbohydrate content is what Daniel Gallie, professor of biochemistry, will present at a congressional seminar in Washington, D.C., this week.

Because his research holds promise for efficiently feeding high-protein corn to people and livestock all over the world, Gallie has been invited to speak to an audience of congressional staff in the Longworth House Office Building of the U.S. House of Representatives. His 45-minute presentation is scheduled for 10 a.m., Sept. 23.

The National Coalition for Food and Agricultural Research, a broad-based coalition of agricultural producers, science societies and universities, is sponsoring the seminar.

In the United States, the vast majority of corn — nearly 65 percent — is used to feed animals for meat production. Much of the remainder is exported to other countries for feeding animals or made into corn sweeteners or fuel alcohol. Corn, the most widely produced feed grain in the United States, accounts for more than 90 percent of total value and production of feed grains in the country, with around 80 million acres of land planted with corn.

“Nearly 800 million people in the world suffer from protein-energy malnutrition, which is a leading cause of death in children in developing countries, many of which already produce corn as a major cereal crop,” said Gallie. “A significant fraction of the world’s population, particularly in developing countries, has no access to meat as a protein source, and has to rely on plant sources such as grain. The new corn we have developed has two embryos in its kernel, which is what doubles the content of protein and oil and reduces the starch content. It could provide a good source of protein for those that depend on grain as their primary source of nutrients.”
 

Leifer

Senior Member.
I ran across a friend looking for "non-GMO tomato seeds".
I told him that selling such a thing is a sales gimmick, because in fact there are no GMO tomato seeds for sale anywhere.
Even the anti-GMO sites admit this....
 
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Soulfly

Banned
Banned
I ran across a friend looking for "non-GMO tomato seeds".
I told him that selling such a thing is a sales gimmick, because in fact there are no GMO tomato seeds for sale anywhere.
Even the anti-GMO sites admit this....
What was his response to you? Is he still looking for them?
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
I've also heard the argument that the gluten in wheat is GMO or gluten intolerance is because of the GMO wheat. But there are no GM-wheat on the market, yet.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
At this time, there are no GMO seeds, or any type available in quantities for a home gardener. They are all packaged for farmers.

At this time, this is the list of GMO crops approved in the US;

Corn, both dent(feed) and sweet corn (no popcorn---sweet is new and limited)
Soy beans
Cotton
Sugar Beets
Canola
Alfalfa
Papaya
Squash (yellow and zucchini) not very popular, since they only provide resistance to some pests, and they do not reduce the need for spraying

On the near horizon

Arctic apple ---non browning
Aqua bounty salmon---fast growing
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
At this time, there are no GMO seeds, or any type available in quantities for a home gardener. They are all packaged for farmers.

At this time, this is the list of GMO crops approved in the US;

Corn, both dent(feed) and sweet corn (no popcorn---sweet is new and limited)
Soy beans
Cotton
Sugar Beets
Canola
Alfalfa
Papaya
Squash (yellow and zucchini) not very popular, since they only provide resistance to some pests, and they do not reduce the need for spraying

On the near horizon

Arctic apple ---non browning
Aqua bounty salmon---fast growing
Do they make high fructose corn syrup from dent?
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Yes they do. Much of the dent corn is also used to produce ethanol for a gasoline additive, then the resulting 'brewer's grain' is used for feed. Since the sugar has been turned in alcohol, it is easier for cattle to digest and they fart less on is

There are a couple of good FB groups to discuss food and farming with.


Food and Farm Discussion Lab

GMO Skepti-Forum


BTW, the GMO skepti-forum is part of a family of Skepti-forums for the discussion of subjects from Energy to Sex and Vaccines and Veterinary issues
 

KAT

Active Member
it is easier for cattle to digest and they fart less on is

Well I have heard that methane from cows farting is the real greenhouse gas causing all that "climate change". So this is a good thing. Giving them DIY grass instead of mash might be a good thing, too.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Cattle are mostly grassfed, they are finished on corn. When you remove most of the sugars in corn, by converting it to alcohol, the resulting mash is higher in protein and it results in less farting.

All methane is a problem, whether it is from natural gas, or from cows or from the decay of organic matter.

In China, in some areas where they raise lots of pigs, the village will have a manure digester, where everyone takes the manure to. The methane from it is then piped to the homes to use for cooking and heating. The city of Dallas, is injecting water into it's landfill to encourage the decay of the waste. They are selling the resulting methane. Other than money made from it, this is going to allow the city to continue to use the same landfill for another 20+ years. The decayed trash takes up less room.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
This thread is over three years old. Please consider starting new more focussed threads, if there are specific thing to debunk.
 
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