Flight MH370 Speculation

[Stevan Gvozdenovic]

There was no reason the aircraft could not have reached Perth from the last known radar position. Even if it couldn't there is a 10,000 foot runway RAAF base at Learmonth, which is 90 minutes closer to Asia, that Zaharie would have been familiar with. Perth is a very isolated city and pilots need to be au fait with Learmonth. I very much doubt that this was a failed bid to reach Australia.

how do you know the fuel levels and exact flight path? it didn't go straight towards Perth over Indonesia(unless Indonesians are lying which I very much doubt), instead it supposedly made a huge circle to avoid radar in Banda Aceh... what other reason there would be to go towards south? I don't buy story about intentional ditching far from anywhere...as I can't see motivation from anyone to do so, also projected flight path goes SE not directly to south.

If someone was going to seek asylum, would they radio ahead to the airport they flying into or would they fly in the dark. Also why would someone from Malaysia need to seek asylum from its own government. I know its a tough place, but its honestly one of the last places I would've pegged, for someone needing asylum from...

Well he might have radioed if he got closer, again it wasn't so much about asylum but exposing the malaysian government to the world. As an experienced pilot he could maybe get australian citizenship even without seeking asylum...(dunno if pilots are deficient in Australia)

Is embarrassing your government by exposing lax security really worth risking your life and the lives of the passengers and crew? Surely were this his aim the pilot's main priority would still be to reach his destination and land safely in order to tell his story. Why avoid scrambling jets when you know they would have to be insane to shoot you and your passengers out of the sky?

well I think it was quickly brought decision of an outraged man, so he didn't have time to evaluate everything... he was probably thinking he had enough fuel to reach Australia but still failed as in-flight calculations when you go unknown routes can be quite off, especially if you include factors of zig-zagging and changing altitudes

 

[Jason]

well I think it was quickly brought decision of an outraged man, so he didn't have time to evaluate everything... he was probably thinking he had enough fuel to reach Australia but still failed as in-flight calculations when you go unknown routes can be quite off, especially if you include factors of zig-zagging and changing altitudes

Thats the thing I don't get with this asylum thing. He is an experienced pilot, very experienced in fact with over 25yrs of experience. Why not wait until he has a regular flight to Australia perhaps, or instead of turning back and risk losing fuel just make a "b" line right to Australia. Perhaps he thought about landing in the Malidives first or Diego Garcia and had second thoughts but either way its a risky gamble, and I would imagine pilots have it pretty good in Malaysia. He was working for the government in some capacity because Malaysian airlines is state run. Did he exhibit any fear for his life. And the whole point of seeking asylum is because you want to live. Taking uneccessary risk doesn't seem like his M.O...

 

[jonnyH]

it wasn't so much about asylum but exposing the malaysian government to the world

But what has been exposed that we didn't already know or suspect about the Malaysian Authorities? What would have been exposed had he got to his destination? Were there not less drastic means of achieving the same objective?

he didn't have time to evaluate everything

Didn't he have about 7 hours to think about it.

he was probably thinking he had enough fuel to reach Australia but still failed as in-flight calculations

I have no experience of such things but I hope amongst the equipment in the cockpit there is a fuel gauge which is at least as sophisticated as the one in my car. I'm just not convinced a well trained pilot would accidentally run out of fuel miles from anywhere and ditch in the sea without alerting anyone.

 

[Stevan Gvozdenovic]

Thats the thing I don't get with this asylum thing. He is an experienced pilot, very experienced in fact with over 25yrs of experience. Why not wait until he has a regular flight to Australia perhaps, or instead of turning back and risk losing fuel just make a "b" line right to Australia. Perhaps he thought about landing in the Malidives first or Diego Garcia and had second thoughts but either way its a risky gamble, and I would imagine pilots have it pretty good in Malaysia. He was working for the government in some capacity because Malaysian airlines is state run. Did he exhibit any fear for his life. And the whole point of seeking asylum is because you want to live. Taking uneccessary risk doesn't seem like his M.O...

I have explained it already, taking asylum was secondary goal, primary goal was telling the world "look what I have to done just to show you the problems people face in Malaysia", kind of patriotic act(his way of thinking)

I guess majority of you don't live in 3rd world countries so you can't grasp the situation in those, it's not all about the money(at least not for everyone) and the pilots are mainly kind of people that at least subconsciously want to be heroes if nothing for a day or two... it simply clicked in his head

But what has been exposed that we didn't already know or suspect about the Malaysian Authorities? What would have been exposed had he got to his destination? Were there not less drastic means of achieving the same objective?

for him no, if he took australian citizenship regular way and wanted to announce anything it would barely make headlines of local newspapers

also nothing special has been exposed well except the ineptitude of military(which is also government responsibility), but it could be different story if he made it

Didn't he have about 7 hours to think about it.

not really, and we don't know what was happening inside the cabin, maybe F/O was showing restraint etc. and that further complicated things

I have no experience of such things but I hope amongst the equipment in the cockpit there is a fuel gauge which is at least as sophisticated as the one in my car. I'm just not convinced a well trained pilot would accidentally run out of fuel miles from anywhere and ditch in the sea without alerting anyone.

there is a fuel gauge but the problem is that flight was everything but straight-line...with swerving, zig-zagging and changing altitude, too hard to calculate range in that situation and under stress, remember we don't know what was happening in the plane during the time

maybe he was aware of fuel shortage somewhere in the middle of Indian Ocean but realised there was no chance of surviving anyway and everyone is going to blame him afterwards so he remained silent

 

[jonnyH]

I guess majority of you don't live in 3rd world countries

I'm not sure what you define as a Third World country, Wikipedia says that

Due to the complex history of evolving meanings and contexts, there is no clear or agreed upon definition of the Third World.[1] Some countries in the Communist Bloc, such as Cuba, were often regarded as "Third World". Because many Third World countries were extremely poor, and non-industrialized, it became a stereotype to refer to poor countries as "third world countries", yet the "Third World" term is also often taken to include newly industrialized countries like India, Brazil or China. Historically, some European countries were part of the non-aligned movement and a few were and are very prosperous, including Switzerland and Austria.

I think what you are trying to say is that Malaysia is "extremely poor and non-industrialised" yet this is not really true.

Malaysia boasts at least 32 homegrown billionaires, it

had one of the best economic records in Asia, with GDP growing an average 6.5 per cent annually from 1957 to 2005

In the 1970s, the predominantly mining and agricultural-based economy began a transition towards a more multi-sector economy. Since the 1980s, the industrial sector, with a high level of investment, has led the country's growth.[3][139] The economy recovered from the 1997 Asian financial crisis earlier than neighbouring countries did, and has since recovered to the levels of the pre-crisis era with a GDP per capita of $14,800.

Kuala Lumpur was ranked 10th among cities to have most buildings above 100 meters with a combined height of 34035 meters from its 244 high rise buildings

One of these being the Petronas Towers that

were the tallest buildings in the world from 1998 to 2004

and it hosts the Malaysian Formula 1 Grand Prix.

I am not denying

Economic inequalities exist between different ethnic groups

but I would have thought if he's made it as a commercial pilot he is probably on the more privileged side of that divide.

for him no, if he took australian citizenship regular way and wanted to announce anything it would barely make headlines of local newspapers

But the situation with Ethiopian Pilot who did just that was widely reported in the international press, why would it be any different in this case?

also nothing special has been exposed well except the ineptitude of military(which is also government responsibility), but it could be different story if he made it

Nothing has been exposed, if it could have been a different story had he made it then why did he not take more care to ensure he made it?

As it is his

kind of patriotic act

is lost on us completely.

 

[Jason]

Stevan I have to agree with JonnyH on this one. You put together a great argument and in some ways it makes sense and can be perfectly possible, but as with all speculation theories there are so many unknowns at this point to feel comfortable with one theory or the other. It's seems obvious that the majority feel this was intentional on the part of the pilot due to the course corrections that were made early on in the flight. Asylum requires him to have landed safely, and while I can see your point about him wanting to embarrass the country he was running from, it doesn't make any sense that he would've done it in the manner he did. He could've flown further south over Malaysia and still had the same outcome which would've given him more fuel to make it to Australia. Not only that, the path the plane took according to Inmarsat (I understand its still conjecture at this point) doesn't seem like the most direct path to Australia. Not too mention couldn't he have tried to seek asylum in India.

 

[Stevan Gvozdenovic]

I'm not sure what you define as a Third World country, Wikipedia says that

Due to the complex history of evolving meanings and contexts, there is no clear or agreed upon definition of the Third World.[1] Some countries in the Communist Bloc, such as Cuba, were often regarded as "Third World". Because many Third World countries were extremely poor, and non-industrialized, it became a stereotype to refer to poor countries as "third world countries", yet the "Third World" term is also often taken to include newly industrialized countries like India, Brazil or China. Historically, some European countries were part of the non-aligned movement and a few were and are very prosperous, including Switzerland and Austria.

I think what you are trying to say is that Malaysia is "extremely poor and non-industrialised" yet this is not really true.

Malaysia boasts at least 32 homegrown billionaires, it

had one of the best economic records in Asia, with GDP growing an average 6.5 per cent annually from 1957 to 2005

In the 1970s, the predominantly mining and agricultural-based economy began a transition towards a more multi-sector economy. Since the 1980s, the industrial sector, with a high level of investment, has led the country's growth.[3][139] The economy recovered from the 1997 Asian financial crisis earlier than neighbouring countries did, and has since recovered to the levels of the pre-crisis era with a GDP per capita of $14,800.

Kuala Lumpur was ranked 10th among cities to have most buildings above 100 meters with a combined height of 34035 meters from its 244 high rise buildings

One of these being the Petronas Towers that

were the tallest buildings in the world from 1998 to 2004

and it hosts the Malaysian Formula 1 Grand Prix.

I am not denying

Economic inequalities exist between different ethnic groups

but I would have thought if he's made it as a commercial pilot he is probably on the more privileged side of that divide.

nah I was not referring to Malaysia as a poor and non-industrialised but I understand why you got me wrong, 3rd world here has meaning of huge injustice and corruption, nepotism included

after this happened I have read many malaysian comments and they gave me the picture, which is not much different from here in Montenegro(and whole Balkans for that matter)

there is no real democracy, all elections are rigged, high number of government officials(if not all) is chosen solely on basis of belonging to ruling party although they aren't qualified to do the job(we have seen how they have handled this), it's simply unlawful(though relatively rich) state where opposition leader(a close friend of Captain) is being jailed for alleged homosexuality, does it ring a bell now?

Saudi Arabia, Brunei, Qatar etc. are all rich countries but still 3rd world for me

so I'll repeat myself here(hope for the last time), it's not all about the money, at least not for everyone, there are some people who have honor, ideals(right or wrong), selfrespect and on and on

But the situation with Ethiopian Pilot who did just that was widely reported in the international press, why would it be any different in this case?

just what? Are you sure you remember that story well?

That flight was bound to Italy...which ended in Switzerland (see the parallel?), also it exposed swiss military since their pilots work only Monday to Friday 8:00 to 16:00(you see the foreign intelligence could have that info but did anyone of us know it before? see the parallel?) NATO planes had to follow it (french and italian I think) to the Geneve airport and in case of terrorist act on a city they didn't have clearance to shoot (only swiss planes can shoot intruders on their territory, matter of sovereignty or so they said).

Now that ethiopian pilot probably didn't have any intention to expose their military because he also didn't know for that(I'd say, or he did so went intentionally there just because of that?).

So what we have here, hijack of plane with going to another country and exposing military weakness(intentionally or not), which was on all pilot&military forums around for two weeks before MH370 flight(many joked about Switzerland there accentuating how silly it is for a rich country not to have 24h coverage).

Now I will say that again, I can't be sure about this scenario(how could I be without any hard proofs?) but Captain definitely had this going through his head, connect it with aforementioned rage(literally rage!) against government and family problems (it's confirmed he's got the call right before take off from "mysterious" woman, his lover maybe?) and you'll see the bigger picture.

Nothing has been exposed,

how can you say nothing has been exposed when a rogue aircraft can overfly Malaysia unchallenged although they have 2 military jets on 24h coverage? you see, if that happened in USA, UK, or todays Russia..generals would have some explaining to do and they would possibly be fired

it's simply a huge security problem, basically anyone can fly a bomber above them and drop whatever, or since they aren't in war with anyone terrorists could try to hijack another plane and hit Kuala Lumpur towers without any problems

if it could have been a different story had he made it then why did he not take more care to ensure he made it?

huh, how could we know how much care he took? Many things could happen during the flight that inflicted his ability to take care.

Asylum requires him to have landed safely, and while I can see your point about him wanting to embarrass the country he was running from, it doesn't make any sense that he would've done it in the manner he did. He could've flown further south over Malaysia and still had the same outcome which would've given him more fuel to make it to Australia. Not only that, the path the plane took according to Inmarsat (I understand its still conjecture at this point) doesn't seem like the most direct path to Australia. Not too mention couldn't he have tried to seek asylum in India.

uhm, southern part that goes directly to Australia would have to cross Indonesia and he couldn't know how indonesian military pilots would react if he didn't obey, they could shoot him without consequences (like israeli pilots downed egyptian airliner some 30 years ago)

I have explained why it wasn't most direct path(remember that's just projected path), it could be to evade JORN coverage and reach Perth from west. Bear in mind inmarsat doesn't know where on the arc the plane hit the water and their projection is based on constant optimal speed, for what is worth it could be some 500 miles to the north.

Seeking asylum in India would be silly, India is even worse than Malaysia.

 

[Pete Tar]

(it's confirmed he's got the call right before take off from "mysterious" woman, his lover maybe?)

Can you share this confirmation?

 

[Stevan Gvozdenovic]

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nati...eived-call-from-mystery-woman-before-takeoff/

also this is interesting

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/missing-fl...-signal-picked-by-network-tower-after-1444962

"A US official has claimed the mobile phone belonging to the co-pilot of Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 made contact with a network tower, half an hour after the missing plane veered off course.

The official claimed a signal from the phone of Fariq Abdul Hamid was picked up by a network tower in Penang, 250 miles from the location of the final signal emitted by MH370.

The official's assertions, reported by CNN, back up a theory that MH370 was flying low after diverting course in order to pick up a signal from a communications tower."

250 miles in half an hour would indicate 500 mph which is almost optimal speed so that alone should exclude fire/malfunction of the plane

 

[TWCobra]

I have posted this before, but the notion that most countries have fighter aircraft on alert status 24 hours a day is an illusion.

Due to the cost, that sort of thing is only done for a good reason.

For a five minute alert, you need aircraft prepped and fuelled and the pilots sitting in their flight gear, within 50 metres of the aircraft. That is a posture set when imminent attack is threatened OR an air defence exercise in being run.

At any alert level less than that there is virtually no chance of making a successful intercept in a country like Malaysia.

This incident occurred after midnight on a weekend. While the Air defence radars may have been operating, my guess is the RMAF pilots were tucked safely in bed when all this was happening.

Now, while countries might not like to reveal these sorts of facts, it is hardly an earth shaking revelation that would bring down a government.

Steve, you ask how can I know what flight paths and altitudes the aircraft flew? The aircraft was being flown by qualified pilots. If the intention was to fly to Australia, once clear of any radars, simply typing "PH" into the flight management computer would have gotten them a rough estimate of the fuel required to get to Perth from the current position. If the FMC said they didn't have enough fuel then typing "LM" or "PD" would have given them other options. It really is that simple these days.

A professional pilot would not have run out of fuel if the intention was to reach Australia.

The JORN radar needs to be steered. It is not an air defence radar as such. If it was not pointing at the aircraft it would not see it.

I am not defending Zaharie. This aircraft was flown by someone who knew what he was doing. But none of the theories so far advanced make a lot of sense.

 

[Stevan Gvozdenovic]

I have posted this before, but the notion that most countries have fighter aircraft on alert status 24 hours a day is an illusion.

Due to the cost, that sort of thing is only done for a good reason.

For a five minute alert, you need aircraft prepped and fuelled and the pilots sitting in their flight gear, within 50 metres of the aircraft. That is a posture set when imminent attack is threatened OR an air defence exercise in being run.

At any alert level less than that there is virtually no chance of making a successful intercept in a country like Malaysia.

This incident occurred after midnight on a weekend. While the Air defence radars may have been operating, my guess is the RMAF pilots were tucked safely in bed when all this was happening.

Now, while countries might not like to reveal these sorts of facts, it is hardly an earth shaking revelation that would bring down a government.

Steve, you ask how can I know what flight paths and altitudes the aircraft flew? The aircraft was being flown by qualified pilots. If the intention was to fly to Australia, once clear of any radars, simply typing "PH" into the flight management computer would have gotten them a rough estimate of the fuel required to get to Perth from the current position. If the FMC said they didn't have enough fuel then typing "LM" or "PD" would have given them other options. It really is that simple these days.

A professional pilot would not have run out of fuel if the intention was to reach Australia.

The JORN radar needs to be steered. It is not an air defence radar as such. If it was not pointing at the aircraft it would not see it.

I am not defending Zaharie. This aircraft was flown by someone who knew what he was doing. But none of the theories so far advanced make a lot of sense.

there are 2(or 3) types of alert, at least such was the situation in yugoslavian airforce, what are you talking about is immediate alert(don't know the right expression), then there is a slower one that takes half an hour(that much time is needed for starting engines waking up pilots etc.), and half an hour was enough to intercept MH370 above malacca strait(if they were given alert on time) since military jets are twice faster than civilian

both Malaysia and Indonesia have pair of jets on 24 hour watch (Malaysia has 2 MiG-29s or SU-27s I forgot, but they have them ready)

(here is the reason why Captain wanted to evade Indonesia, they don't joke : http://malaysiaflipflop.blogspot.com/2014/04/indonesian-fighter-jet-alert-at-first.html )

also if radar operator has seen the rogue aircraft on time overflying Malaysia he would at least contact indonesian colleauges which would immediately alert their crews, the point is that they had to look into logs(radar history or however it's called) to notice it, and then it was too late

regarding FMC, I know about that, but there might have been in-flight conflicts and changing path after entering "PH" in flight computer, which would decrease range, then again they may have gone for Port Hedland which is some 1000 miles up north, we don't know it

or..because of that conflict something happened during the flight and they ditched in case fuel hasn't been an issue, but I don't assign much probability to that scenario

I am not defending Captain either nor attacking him as this is all just speculation, but there are some very "coincidental" clues...

 

[Pete Tar]

http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nati...eived-call-from-mystery-woman-before-takeoff/

Yeah but that's from 23rd march, when there was a lot of anything-goes speculation and anonymous sources. You said 'confirmed' which would imply recent verification or resolution.
One should treat details from those early days as suspect and not a strong basis for speculation.
However, maybe this detail is still considered valid.

 

[TWCobra]

30 minute alert is far too long to catch an aircraft heading east to west over the Malaysian peninsula at 500 knots. Where is your reference that there were jets on alert?

 

[TWCobra]

The other thing to realise is that when the aircraft turned at position IGARI, it actually went into Thailand's airspace, not Malaysia's. It was also not reported missing for an extended time.

It did cross back into Malaysian airspace near Penang. If the RMAF had decided to intercept at that point, using a 30 minute alert fighter, it would have exited Malaysia's airspace long before interception.

Thailand didn't launch any fighters either.

 

[Stevan Gvozdenovic]

Yeah but that's from 23rd march, when there was a lot of anything-goes speculation and anonymous sources. You said 'confirmed' which would imply recent verification or resolution.
One should treat details from those early days as suspect and not a strong basis for speculation.
However, maybe this detail is still considered valid.

I think it's reported from various sides, still can't see why would it have anything "mysterious" attached to it, call as a call.

30 minute alert is far too long to catch an aircraft heading east to west over the Malaysian peninsula at 500 knots. Where is your reference that there were jets on alert?

they didn't have to catch it over peninsula, in this case they could stray into international airspace over malacca strait

I can't find reference sorry but that was suggested by a very serious source from www.militaryphotos.net if I remember well

The other thing to realise is that when the aircraft turned at position IGARI, it actually went into Thailand's airspace, not Malaysia's. It was also not reported missing for an extended time.

It did cross back into Malaysian airspace near Penang. If the RMAF had decided to intercept at that point, using a 30 minute alert fighter, it would have exited Malaysia's airspace long before interception.

Thailand didn't launch any fighters either.

it didn't(if they are to be believed), it was hand-flown along the border if I got them correctly...

http://indianexpress.com/article/wo...ian-plane-mh-370-never-entered-thai-airspace/

 

[Jason]

there are 2(or 3) types of alert, at least such was the situation in yugoslavian airforce, what are you talking about is immediate alert(don't know the right expression), then there is a slower one that takes half an hour(that much time is needed for starting engines waking up pilots etc.), and half an hour was enough to intercept MH370 above malacca strait(if they were given alert on time) since military jets are twice faster than civilian

Just to make an analogy here, when 9/11 happened we had hijackers over the most highly regarded air defense in the world, and this was during the morning rush hour. I think it's safe to say that if the hijackers didn't notify ATC they probably would've gone unnoticed a bit longer. Regardless of that not one plane was intercepted over US soil that day (embarrassing, yes, but its true). So its not hard to imagine why it could happen over Malaysia in the middle of the night, as TW said. I don't think he was trying to embarrass the government, because honestly this has been known since a day or two after the plane went missing, aside from it embarrassing them a little not much came of it.

 

[ConspiracyAtheist]

What I am about to bring up is a legitimate and evidence-based occurrence that may or may not have significant importance to this incident--but nonetheless, it's an accepted fact that it occurred, and is something that has not been spoken about by the investigators or media for quite some time. I'm talking about the phone call made by Zaharies Ahmed Shahs shortly before take-off. To quote the NZ Herald, "The captain of missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 received a two-minute call shortly before take-off from a mystery woman using a mobile phone number obtained under a false identity...But in this case police traced the number to a shop selling SIM cards in Kuala Lumpur.They found that it had been bought 'very recently' by someone who gave a woman's name - but was using a false identity."

Does anybody see any potential significant in this? Does anybody know if it's particularly common to communicate through these temporary SIM phones in that part of the world? Perhaps it's commonplace to use a fake identity when purchasing these in fear of stolen identity? I have no clue..maybe somebody here has more knowledge on this than I. Any commercial pilots here that find it odd at all that the captain made a 2 minute phone call shortly prior to take-off?

 

[Jason]

What I am about to bring up is a legitimate and evidence-based occurrence that may or may not have significant importance to this incident--but nonetheless, it's an accepted fact that it occurred, and is something that has not been spoken about by the investigators or media for quite some time. I'm talking about the phone call made by Zaharies Ahmed Shahs shortly before take-off. To quote the NZ Herald, "The captain of missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 received a two-minute call shortly before take-off from a mystery woman using a mobile phone number obtained under a false identity...But in this case police traced the number to a shop selling SIM cards in Kuala Lumpur.They found that it had been bought 'very recently' by someone who gave a woman's name - but was using a false identity."

Does anybody see any potential significant in this? Does anybody know if it's particularly common to communicate through these temporary SIM phones in that part of the world? Perhaps it's commonplace to use a fake identity when purchasing these in fear of stolen identity? I have no clue..maybe somebody here has more knowledge on this than I. Any commercial pilots here that find it odd at all that the captain made a 2 minute phone call shortly prior to take-off?

How do they know it was a women?

 

[Pete Tar]

the phone call made by Zaharies Ahmed Shahs

*received by*

 

[ConspiracyAtheist]

*received by*

No, it was made by Captain Zaharie

 

[ConspiracyAtheist]

Actually, after reading several different articles, some say the call was made from Shah's phone, and some say it was received by Shah's phone. One article actually said both within the article.

 

[Pete Tar]

Well the quote you used said received.

To quote the NZ Herald, "The captain of missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 received a two-minute call

Probably it's one of the details protected by being a criminal investigation.

 

[Stevan Gvozdenovic]

exactly Pete, and government has never denied it so I think there is much bigger chance it happened than not

Just to make an analogy here, when 9/11 happened we had hijackers over the most highly regarded air defense in the world, and this was during the morning rush hour. I think it's safe to say that if the hijackers didn't notify ATC they probably would've gone unnoticed a bit longer. Regardless of that not one plane was intercepted over US soil that day (embarrassing, yes, but its true). So its not hard to imagine why it could happen over Malaysia in the middle of the night, as TW said. I don't think he was trying to embarrass the government, because honestly this has been known since a day or two after the plane went missing, aside from it embarrassing them a little not much came of it.

US air defense network isn't concentrated on inner part of the country as they suppose intruders would have first to get into US from somewhere...

also NORAD has been notified too late with erroneous reporting that made scrambled jets fly in a chaotic path, and yes - jets have been scrambled unlike here

see for yourself, this is from wikipedia so I assume valid and crosschecked :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._military_response_during_the_September_11_attacks

 

[Dee]

exactly Pete, and government has never denied it so I think there is much bigger chance it happened than not

It was reported that the Malaysian Police denied any investigation into the alleged phone call.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/miss...-pilot-zaharie-ahmad-shah-20140323-35buv.html

Police Inspector-General Kahlid Abu Bakar on Monday dismissed reports in Britain's Mail on Sunday that police were investigating a call senior pilot Zaharie Ahmad Shah made on his mobile phone shortly before the plane took off from Kuala Lumpur.

But Inspector-General Kahlid said that if the newspaper could provide the telephone number "that would be helpful".

"If not ... it is mere speculation," he said.

 

[jonnyH]

I think some of the assumptions that underpin your psychological profile are faulty. You stated somewhere above that people from Third World countries tend to blame the government for their marital troubles. Here it is:

he just got divorced (in 3rd world countries people tend to blame government even for that)

Does it seem too much to ask if there is any evidence to support that assertion?

"Third World" as I understand it means Not NATO and not Soviet Bloc and therefore covers a range of nations from Somalia to Switzerland. Assuming that people from the Third World share certain psychological traits is therefore an absurdly broad brush approach.

Applying your definition

3rd world here has meaning of huge injustice and corruption, nepotism included

Yes there is corruption, actual and perceived in Malaysia but it does not affect all Malaysians to the same degree. Its a giant leap to say that the mere existence of corruption would drive a successful, educated member of the upper middle classes to the brink of madness when combined with his alleged marital strife.

I know of no comparable examples in history where, driven crazy by all the injustice in the world, someone has taken heroic steps to expose weaknesses in their countries air defences. Do You?

 

[Stevan Gvozdenovic]

OK not divorced but he had problems with his wife and divorce was about to come(I have read that on some malaysian sites so I doubt Mail has made that up)

it's not the mere existence of corruption that existed for years, it's jailing of opposition leader and his close friend that made him do so, the situation in Malaysia and his family problems just added on top of that

here is the picture of him in an interesting shirt

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/Q6OF2llFVmI/0.jpg

at the end, there was no comparable example in history of any event before that event happened for the first time

 

[Stevan Gvozdenovic]

It was reported that the Malaysian Police denied any investigation into the alleged phone call.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/miss...-pilot-zaharie-ahmad-shah-20140323-35buv.html

Police Inspector-General Kahlid Abu Bakar on Monday dismissed reports in Britain's Mail on Sunday that police were investigating a call senior pilot Zaharie Ahmad Shah made on his mobile phone shortly before the plane took off from Kuala Lumpur.

But Inspector-General Kahlid said that if the newspaper could provide the telephone number "that would be helpful".

"If not ... it is mere speculation," he said.

huh, I don't want to stray into conspiracy now but the tone of this response doesn't make me believe the police inspector...

 

[ConspiracyAtheist]

This is the wording used by investigators regarding the 2-minute phone call that is interpreted as refutation:
"Bukit Aman assistant chief inspector-general of police secretariat Asst Comm Datin Asmawati Ahmad said the foreign tabloid had no exclusive rights to the details of the investigations.
"The Inspector-General of Police has never issued any public statement that categorically place the MH370 investigation under an act of terrorism.
"Please be advised that the Royal Malaysia Police take no responsibility over the dissemination of such information, which originates from unnamed and unverified sources,"

I could be wrong, but it sounds to me as though this is an indication that the phone-call is part of the investigation, and not something that the investigators particularly want the public knowing fully about.

 

[ConspiracyAtheist]

One additional thing I'd like to touch upon. I apologize if it has been discussed before but from what I recall it hasn't been brought up.

On March 26th, "At about 4 pm today there was a fire in MAS Avionic Shop, level 2, Hangar 2 in Subang. The Avionic Shop has been existent in MAS for more than 30 years and this is the first time that a fire broke out so mysteriously"...."Avionic Shop is a workshop that repairs all avionic components / electronic box that was installed on the aircraft including MH 370. This mysterious fire was equally unprecedented. It happened during this challenging time for MAS when the missing MH370 story has not been fully settled."...."Some three days ago MH 066 A330 aircraft originated from Kuala Lumpur to Incheon, South Korea, was diverted to Hong Kong due to the failure of one of its electric generators which supply normal electrical power in the aircraft. It has been reported to be "technical problems". Instead of the highly qualified En Azhari Dahlan coming out to explain the "technical problems' of the generator, the CEO of MAS had to come up with the explanations. Luckily all 271 passengers were all safe."...."The highly qualified En Azhari Dhalan, the CEO of Aerospace Engineering of MAS, must now break his silence to explain what have caused the fire and more importantly what documents or properties have been destroyed by this mysterious fire and was this a sabotage."
http://weechookeong.com/2014/03/26/azhari-explain-mysterious-fire-in-avionic-shop-of-mas/

Very interesting stuff if you ask me..Something that has been absolutely and completely swept under the rug. Whether this is because it has no relevance to the plane's disappearance, or for some other more sinister reason, I have no idea. But as far as I can tell, using some good old logical deduction, since Malaysia is convinced that the plane was deliberately re-routed, that must mean that the Avionic Shop fire had no relevance. Anyone have an opinion on this?

 

[Jason]

One additional thing I'd like to touch upon. I apologize if it has been discussed before but from what I recall it hasn't been brought up.

On March 26th, "At about 4 pm today there was a fire in MAS Avionic Shop, level 2, Hangar 2 in Subang. The Avionic Shop has been existent in MAS for more than 30 years and this is the first time that a fire broke out so mysteriously"...."Avionic Shop is a workshop that repairs all avionic components / electronic box that was installed on the aircraft including MH 370. This mysterious fire was equally unprecedented. It happened during this challenging time for MAS when the missing MH370 story has not been fully settled."...."Some three days ago MH 066 A330 aircraft originated from Kuala Lumpur to Incheon, South Korea, was diverted to Hong Kong due to the failure of one of its electric generators which supply normal electrical power in the aircraft. It has been reported to be "technical problems". Instead of the highly qualified En Azhari Dahlan coming out to explain the "technical problems' of the generator, the CEO of MAS had to come up with the explanations. Luckily all 271 passengers were all safe."...."The highly qualified En Azhari Dhalan, the CEO of Aerospace Engineering of MAS, must now break his silence to explain what have caused the fire and more importantly what documents or properties have been destroyed by this mysterious fire and was this a sabotage."
http://weechookeong.com/2014/03/26/azhari-explain-mysterious-fire-in-avionic-shop-of-mas/

Very interesting stuff if you ask me..Something that has been absolutely and completely swept under the rug. Whether this is because it has no relevance to the plane's disappearance, or for some other more sinister reason, I have no idea. But as far as I can tell, using some good old logical deduction, since Malaysia is convinced that the plane was deliberately re-routed, that must mean that the Avionic Shop fire had no relevance. Anyone have an opinion on this?

I agree it sounds interesting, but what evidence is there that the plane had repairs or maintenance done in this avionics shop. Are the maintenance records available for MH370? And it seems a lawsuit is in the works that was mentioned in an article dated March 27th in popular mechanics, here; http://www.popularmechanics.com/tec...release-of-mh370-maintenance-records-16639052
So it's feasable that MAS got wind of the potential lawsuit and wanted to destory any evidence, but honestly aren't maintenance records stored on line...

 

[derwoodii]

a few news reports

http://www.smh.com.au/world/missing...70-fire-in-the-sky-report-20140609-zs1br.html

the idea is understandable in the circumstances, sadly $5 mill will likely just bring out more clairvoyants and hoaxers

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/08/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-families-fund/

 

[Stevan Gvozdenovic]

This is the wording used by investigators regarding the 2-minute phone call that is interpreted as refutation:
"Bukit Aman assistant chief inspector-general of police secretariat Asst Comm Datin Asmawati Ahmad said the foreign tabloid had no exclusive rights to the details of the investigations.
"The Inspector-General of Police has never issued any public statement that categorically place the MH370 investigation under an act of terrorism.
"Please be advised that the Royal Malaysia Police take no responsibility over the dissemination of such information, which originates from unnamed and unverified sources,"

I could be wrong, but it sounds to me as though this is an indication that the phone-call is part of the investigation, and not something that the investigators particularly want the public knowing fully about.

I have the same opinion about it. I don't think the phone call has particularly influenced Captain's mind but it might have pushed his already made decision forward..

a few news reports

http://www.smh.com.au/world/missing...70-fire-in-the-sky-report-20140609-zs1br.html

heh, a very strange way to lose a job indeed...

 

[Jason]

a few news reports

http://www.smh.com.au/world/missing...70-fire-in-the-sky-report-20140609-zs1br.html

the idea is understandable in the circumstances, sadly $5 mill will likely just bring out more clairvoyants and hoaxers

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/08/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-families-fund/

Is that cause for termination? I smell a lawsuit brewing to be honest with you, unless things are done differently in Japan. I feel bad for the guy because his personal information was leaked, according the article, and as a result he lost his job due to the onlsaught of media coverage and harrassment at the oil rig... Its a shame, it kind of teaches people the wrong message if he was telling the truth. Don't speak up, do be a "do gooder" because it could cost you your job....

 

[jonnyH]

it's not the mere existence of corruption that existed for years, it's jailing of opposition leader and his close friend that made him do so, the situation in Malaysia and his family problems just added on top of that

But still the question remains, how do concerns/fears regarding the state of democracy and electoral freedom manifest themselves as a overwhelming need to embarrass the government by exposing holes in their radar coverage?

There is no connection between the factors you say caused him to act and the actions you suggest he took.

 

[Stevan Gvozdenovic]

exposion holes in their radar coverage wasn't primary goal I'd say and to be fair he couldn't be so sure they will be asleep at work(however weekend night hmm another coincidence), it was about doing something extraordinary so whole world would at least throw a look at situation in Malaysia, and maybe he could get his friend out of jail with the pressure of big powers on malaysian government

I know several people who would do a similar thing for a friend

 

[jonnyH]

exposion holes in their radar coverage wasn't primary goal I'd say and to be fair he couldn't be so sure they will be asleep at work(however weekend night hmm another coincidence), it was about doing something extraordinary so whole world would at least throw a look at situation in Malaysia, and maybe he could get his friend out of jail with the pressure of big powers on malaysian government

Has the MH370 situation lead people to question the democratic legitimacy of the the Malaysian PTB and investigate possible suppression of opposition politicians? Why would it?

 

[Stevan Gvozdenovic]

I don't have the exact stats but many people who didn't know even where Malaysia is have at least found out what is the basic situation there, including me. (OK I knew they really aren't top democracy but jailing opposition leader for alleged homosexuality is just too much)

I understand this all does sound strange to you, but is there any other plausible explanation for dissapearance given all the facts?

 

[Pete Tar]

but is there any other plausible explanation for dissapearance given all the facts?

Whoa there, you've posted some speculation on a possible motive which is fine, but by no means is it the only possible explanation.

 

[Stevan Gvozdenovic]

yep and I can't get why some people think it was so impossible, I mean throughout the history people have been doing a lot crazier things in the name of ideals communism capitalism feudalism you name it, Captain is basically commander of the plane and has the final say where the plane will go(at least in flight), so this was basically a non-standard divert to a far away airport (OK, still a hijack of sorts)

what other possible explanation you have that fits all the facts? I'll repeat these eliminating points here, so please elaborate where I could be wrong IF you believe Inmarsat data and primary radar track, if not that's another story

1. Data we have available (radar picture + Inmarsat pings) strongly points to hijack, there was low-terrain flying over malaysian mainland (witnesses included IIRC, although they couldn't confirm it was exactly MH370 as it was night but the plane was clearly heard flying low, malaysian military would know if that was one of their military planes), + their was a flight from waypoint to waypoint after crossing mainland, supposedly to present itself as just another civilian aircraft albeit without transponder active. Then there is going around Indonesia to evade their radars, just too many factors to exclude hypoxia or malfunctioning plane.

2. Investigators have checked all passengers and found none suspicious, there were some at the beginning because of false passports but they have cleared all of them after further investigation.

3. We are left with two persons then, Captain and F/O who is a "daddy's son" without personal problems and just not the type of guy to do such a thing.

4. So we have the Captain who has all sorts of problems raging through his head, he just got divorced (in 3rd world countries people tend to blame government even for that), his very close friend and opposition leader got sentenced to five years in jail because of a reason unimaginable in any normal country and judging by his Internet activity he also hated their dictatorship before that happened.

 

[Jason]

I understand this all does sound strange to you, but is there any other plausible explanation for dissapearance given all the facts?

There are plenty of other plausible explanations for flight 370, but as Pete said it's purely speculation at this point as with all the other countless "theories" out there. Honestly, if you approached each "serious" theory involving MH370 with an open mind, they all seem plausible in some way. Circumstantial evidence can always be interpretted differently in an investigation.