Flight Activity Over Moorpark, Ventura County

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
Non here today, at least non i can see as there low clouds. Air traffic along the moorpark arrival has been very light.

Hello "Chute".

When you say "None here today", you mean that you see no contrails, today? OK...I also live in Southern California, in the Los Angeles area specifically. You mentioned the "MoorPark Arrival"?

Here is the STAR: http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KLAX/STAR/MOORPARK+THREE

NOW...I could take a lot of time explaining this to you, here. But...to keep it simple....you will not "always" see contrails. This is a fact. Also, you must understand that, just as you do NOT see contrails from airliners taking off, and landing at low altitudes, at airports, you also won't see contrails below certain altitudes. Correct?

Again....I would be VERY happy to help you to learn more, and to 'teach' you on this topic.

Keep in mind that as I live here, in the Southern California area, I hear on the weather news that rain is on our way. This, I write as of 25 February, 2014 at 2308 UTC.
 

Chute

New Member
Fairly thick marine layer rolling in. Im going thru the chemtrails debunked forums trying to glean some info regarding our neighborhood topic de jure. regarding the contrails you observe Mick, what exactly are they, why did they appear and why have they now stopped? Is it because the air traffic has abated or there's been a change in the atmospheric conditions?
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
Fairly thick marine layer rolling in. Im going thru the chemtrails debunked forums trying to glean some info regarding our neighborhood topic de jure. regarding the contrails you observe Mick, what exactly are they, why did they appear and why have they now stopped? Is it because the air traffic has abated or there's been a change in the atmospheric conditions?

Hello "Chute".

I am impressed that you used the term "marine layer". Sorry to interrupt.

My fervent wish is that you will use what appears to be some knowledge of meteorology, and expand on that knowledge, to include upper atmosphere meteorology. I think you might find it fascinating to learn.
 

Chute

New Member
Hello "Chute".

When you say "None here today", you mean that you see no contrails, today? OK...I also live in Southern California, in the Los Angeles area specifically. You mentioned the "MoorPark Arrival"?

Here is the STAR: http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KLAX/STAR/MOORPARK THREE

NOW...I could take a lot of time explaining this to you, here. But...to keep it simple....you will not "always" see contrails. This is a fact. Also, you must understand that, just as you do NOT see contrails from airliners taking off, and landing at low altitudes, at airports, you also won't see contrails below certain altitudes. Correct?

Again....I would be VERY happy to help you to learn more, and to 'teach' you on this topic.

Keep in mind that as I live here, in the Southern California area, I hear on the weather news that rain is on our way. This, I write as of 25 February, 2014 at 2308 UTC.
Thanks Weedwhacker, I've assumed the vapor trails were the result of altitude, as I've personally never seen a low altitude trail from a plane. This subject arose as a result of conversations with a neighbor no more savvy than me regarding airplane traffic. To be honest, observing phenomena I've not noticed before in the vacuum of a biased interpretation did alarm me at first. This site, your members, have gratifyingly provided explanations for these questions. So thanks for your patience.
 
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Chute

New Member
Hello "Chute".

I am impressed that you used the term "marine layer". Sorry to interrupt.

My fervent wish is that you will use what appears to be some knowledge of meteorology, and expand on that knowledge, to include upper atmosphere meteorology. I think you might find it fascinating to learn.
I surf, so marine layer is a familiar term. Anytime science can provide me with logical explanations, I'm happy to wrap myself in it like a warm blanket.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Fairly thick marine layer rolling in. Im going thru the chemtrails debunked forums trying to glean some info regarding our neighborhood topic de jure. regarding the contrails you observe Mick, what exactly are they, why did they appear and why have they now stopped? Is it because the air traffic has abated or there's been a change in the atmospheric conditions?

Contrails are clouds. The water in jet engine exhaust temporarily raises the relative humidity with respect to water to above 100, so it condenses out as a cloud. Then if it's cold enough (below -40F/-40C) the water in the cloud will freeze, and then if it's humid enough, the resultant ice cloud can persist for a long time, and even grow and spread out.

The key factor is relative humidity, it's always cold enough at some altitude. So basically it's the same reasons why you get clouds some days but not others, and why clouds are sometime patch and sometimes solid sheets. It's the weather.

The traffic overhead is generally pretty consistent. Just a lot harder to see planes when they do not leave contrails.
 

Chute

New Member
Mick, I'm not trying to move the discussion in another direction as Im quite happy focusing on understanding the current topic. However, my neighbor suggested i watch a documentary, 'what are they spraying'. Is there a forum addressing the issues presented in it, if you've heard of it. Im really not interested in spending the time to view it.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
Thanks Weedwhacker, I've assumed the vapor trails were the result of altitude, as I've personally never seen a low altitude trail from a plane. This subject arose as a result of conversations with a neighbor no more savvy than me regarding airplane traffic. To be honest, observing phenomena I've not noticed before in the vacuum of a biased interpretation did alarm me at first. This site, your members, have gratifyingly provided explanations for these questions. So thanks for your patience.

Any chance your neighbor will come and read here?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Mick, I'm not trying to move the discussion in another direction as Im quite happy focusing on understanding the current topic. However, my neighbor suggested i watch a documentary, 'what are they spraying'. Is there a forum addressing the issues presented in it, if you've heard of it. Im really not interested in spending the time to view it.

Yes, I wrote a rebuttal of it here:
http://contrailscience.com/what-in-the-world-are-they-spraying/
and the sequel:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/debunked-why-in-the-world-are-they-spraying.300/

And if you search for the various topics in it here, there's lots of sub-posts about various things mentioned in the film. Example:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/debunked-shasta-snow-and-water-aluminum-tests.137/
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
I surf, so marine layer is a familiar term. Anytime science can provide me with logical explanations, I'm happy to wrap myself in it like a warm blanket.

Here in the Bay Area- after some of the marine layer burned off- I noticed a few persistent contrails off in the distance. I would expect to see them today considering a storm is expected tomorrow...I am surprised none were seen in SoCal.
 

Chute

New Member
Contrails are clouds. The water in jet engine exhaust temporarily raises the relative humidity with respect to water to above 100, so it condenses out as a cloud. Then if it's cold enough (below -40F/-40C) the water in the cloud will freeze, and then if it's humid enough, the resultant ice cloud can persist for a long time, and even grow and spread out.

The key factor is relative humidity, it's always cold enough at some altitude. So basically it's the same reasons why you get clouds some days but not others, and why clouds are sometime patch and sometimes solid sheets. It's the weather.

The traffic overhead is generally pretty consistent. Just a lot harder to see planes when they do not leave contrails.
So not having been watching contrails long, would i be correct to assume these occur more often for us here during particular times of the year. This might help to understand what some consider a directed spraying event, is normal air traffic producing trails because of conditions...Am i on the right track? If you understand what Im asking.
 

Chute

New Member
Here in the Bay Area- after some of the marine layer burned off- I noticed a few persistent contrails off in the distance. I would expect to see them today considering a storm is expected tomorrow...I am surprised none were seen in SoCal.
I appreciate your suggesting I watch it, not just read the rebuttal...
 

Leifer

Senior Member.
It's atmospheric conditions......the same atmospheric conditions that lead to natural cloud formation, or not cloud formation.
Planes often add the needed extra element (H2o) to form clouds (trails), where not enough was previously available.
I dated a gal in Ventura for 2 years. I live in LA.
I looked at the skies with great interest all the while, when driving the 48 minute route to visit her.
Perhaps some pilot here can give the distance in miles, when a plane leaves LAX.....until they reach cruising altitude ?

My experience is that all up and down the western coastal areas....is that most planes are flying to-and-from LAX, SFO, SAN, OAK, PDX, SEA.....more.
From my passenger flying experience, flights leave LAX over the ocean, and if they are headed to Phoenix, Colorado, or other mid-country destinations, they do fly over the Oxnard/Ventura area on their turn inland....from the climb over the Pacific ocean.
.
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
So not having been watching contrails long, would i be correct to assume these occur more often for us here during particular times of the year. This might help to understand what some consider a directed spraying event, is normal air traffic producing trails because of conditions...Am i on the right track? If you understand what Im asking.

Very much so. Contrail activity is roughly correlated with the times of year that you get rain. This is because they are related to water in the atmosphere.

So here in SoCal, we get very few in the summer, and lots more in the winter. In more humid places like Florida they get them year round.

Contrails come before a storm because the upper moist air arrives before the lower moist air.


Right now we are in the right side of the image, with the lower clouds coming towards us.
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
So not having been watching contrails long, would i be correct to assume these occur more often for us here during particular times of the year. This might help to understand what some consider a directed spraying event, is normal air traffic producing trails because of conditions...Am i on the right track? If you understand what Im asking.


There is pretty much the same amount of air traffic everyday- some 40,000+ commercial flights every day in the US. Some days, no contrails at all, some days only a few short, dissipating contrails, some days lots of persistent contrail...and some days all of the above.

In general, atmospheric conditions are the dominant factor but also altitude, engine type, engine speed etc... can play a role in contrail formation...persistence is pretty much about ambient humidity at time/place of formation.
 
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Balance

Senior Member.
Re "What in the world are they spraying?"

Is there a forum addressing the issues presented in it,

As it happens, you're in it. I would suggest you begin watching it but stop at each claim and do a search here for the topic in question as it most likely has it's own thread or is repeatedly discussed in many other threads. It's a lot to ask but it's something I find very educational in more ways than one.
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
I appreciate your suggesting I watch it, not just read the rebuttal...

yea- I deleted that part when everybody else chimed in with the rebuttal- but it is important to hear what they have to say...and then review their claims.
 

Chute

New Member
Any chance your neighbor will come and read here?
I wanted to spend a few days reading and assessing before recommending...Im comfortable with doing that now. Just be kind and plead for reasonableness when he comes rolling in, otherwise he'll get put off. It will only diminish the quality of our backyard beer imbibing. I deal with enough haranguing already re surfing in the fukushima flotsam
 

Leifer

Senior Member.
Chute....you seem reasonable.
This forum happens to be one of very few that will allow questions like "the film said this....so what's that all about ?".....and you'll see a polite and scientific discussion on the topic.
While we may seem to come to a similar conclusion, it's not a trick.....it is only because we have reviewed the information, that we end-up with the same conclusion, independently.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
I wanted to spend a few days reading and assessing before recommending...Im comfortable with doing that now. Just be kind and plead for reasonableness when he comes rolling in, otherwise he'll get put off. It will only diminish the quality of our backyard beer imbibing. I deal with enough haranguing already re surfing in the fukushima flotsam

Compared to most other internet fora, this place is pretty darn reasonable. Let him try floating his questions on GLP.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
I wanted to spend a few days reading and assessing before recommending...Im comfortable with doing that now. Just be kind and plead for reasonableness when he comes rolling in, otherwise he'll get put off. It will only diminish the quality of our backyard beer imbibing. I deal with enough haranguing already re surfing in the fukushima flotsam
If he's familiar with chemtrail spin then he is probably already of the opinion this is a psy-op website run by counter-intelligence. That's how most justify not addressing the issues raised here.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
If he's familiar with chemtrail spin then he is probably already of the opinion this is a psy-op website run by counter-intelligence. That's how most justify not addressing the issues raised here.

Unfortunately this is quite possible. The most common response I'm getting now on twitter is along the lines of "STFU Government Shill!"

Example:

And he has a PhD :)
 

Chute

New Member
If he's familiar with chemtrail spin then he is probably already of the opinion this is a psy-op website run by counter-intelligence. That's how most justify not addressing the issues raised here.
Ha! I was googling "chemtrail spin" thinking it was a technical term.
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
Thanks Weedwhacker, I've assumed the vapor trails were the result of altitude, as I've personally never seen a low altitude trail from a plane. This subject arose as a result of conversations with a neighbor no more savvy than me regarding airplane traffic. To be honest, observing phenomena I've not noticed before in the vacuum of a biased interpretation did alarm me at first. This site, your members, have gratifyingly provided explanations for these questions. So thanks for your patience.

Again....to the non-pilot or layperson, this may seem counter-intuitive at times. There are a LOT of aspects to understand, when it comes to aviation, and especially high-altitude regimes of flight.

I wish it were simpler...but, sometimes to understand complex subjects, it requires some complex and in-depth explanation, at times.
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
Ha! I was googling "chemtrail spin" thinking it was a technical term.

LOL!!!

I'm fairly certain that member "Pete Tar" meant, in the term "chemtrail spin", to assert the "spin" (as in the common term "spin doctor"), which is to use a 'meme' and alter the meaning, in order to convey a (false) message.

EDIT: Hence one handicap in the written word as a form of communication, compared to a simple face-to-face conversation, with all the nuance that is offered, there.
 

Chute

New Member
This morning I was directed to a an article published by yahoo news...http://news.yahoo.com/geo-engineering-no-holy-grail-study-180859576.html
I was annoyed the article did not directly link to the actual paper. After a little searching.... http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140225/ncomms4304/full/ncomms4304.html
In the section on Climate Engineering Method Effects on Temp and C02s, I was drawn to the authors statement that only the SRM method in the simulations showed the potential to restore temps to near pre-industrial values. Also suggesting the SRM method must be applied consistently. I'd appreciate opinions on the article from those who have the time to wade through it and have a better grasp of the theory of climate change than myself. In the interest of transparency, I recently friended a mathematician on Facebook who works in the world of climate science and advocates man made global warming is occurring. I'm forwarding the article to him for opinion.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
This morning I was directed to a an article published by yahoo news...http://news.yahoo.com/geo-engineering-no-holy-grail-study-180859576.html
I was annoyed the article did not directly link to the actual paper. After a little searching.... http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140225/ncomms4304/full/ncomms4304.html
In the section on Climate Engineering Method Effects on Temp and C02s, I was drawn to the authors statement that only the SRM method in the simulations showed the potential to restore temps to near pre-industrial values. Also suggesting the SRM method must be applied consistently. I'd appreciate opinions on the article from those who have the time to wade through it and have a better grasp of the theory of climate change than myself. In the interest of transparency, I recently friended a mathematician on Facebook who works in the world of climate science and advocates man made global warming is occurring. I'm forwarding the article to him for opinion.

Seems like a reasonable article. The problem here is that the chemtrail proponents say that articles like this are evidence that geoengineering has been going on for years, when all the article is talking about is possibly doing it in the future.
 

Chute

New Member
Seems like a reasonable article. The problem here is that the chemtrail proponents say that articles like this are evidence that geoengineering has been going on for years, when all the article is talking about is possibly doing it in the future.
To quote my buddy "it's predictive programming" To which I responded -there seems to be no nefarious intent as you have earlier claimed, so why hide it in the first place?
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
@Chute - You should ask your neighbor when "chemtrails" first started- or when he first noticed them...and then ask him if normal contrails can ever persist and spread.

Do you feel more comfortable with reality that "normal" air traffic can leave long, persistent, spreading contrails...and always have been able to do so?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
To quote my buddy "it's predictive programming" To which I responded -there seems to be no nefarious intent as you have earlier claimed, so why hide it in the first place?

Hmm, the term "predictive programming" (in the context of chemtrails) indicates someone who has really brought into the Alex Jones mindset, and maybe even deeper - like David Icke. It's usually used to refer to the idea that contrails have been added to cartoons to make them seem more normal to children (a silly idea, as the children would see the trails in the sky anyway, and so would have no reason not to think they were normal).


Even the Windows logon screen is suspect:


So you might have a little difficulty persuading him otherwise.
 

Chute

New Member
Yes the jones reference has come up, but this is all very new to me. It seems this subject is a gateway to the two worlds..conspiracy and the debunking there of. I've already told him at the moment I'm only interested in understanding the contrail phenomena, not de-population scenarios, or the saving of humanity by decreasing destructive solar radiation. He got a little annoyed at the suggestion he pick one or the other as the two seem counterproductive to each other..again, logic annoying those around me.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Yes the jones reference has come up, but this is all very new to me. It seems this subject is a gateway to the two worlds..conspiracy and the debunking there of. I've already told him at the moment I'm only interested in understanding the contrail phenomena, not de-population scenarios, or the saving of humanity by decreasing destructive solar radiation. He got a little annoyed at the suggestion he pick one or the other as the two seem counterproductive to each other..again, logic annoying those around me.

I'd be very interested to hear how your interaction with him continues. One of the problems I have in trying to debunk things is the violent push-back from believers when they think I'm being deceptive. It gives them an instant excuse to totally ignore whatever I'm saying - and if it sounds reasonable, then that's evidence that I'm just really well training at making things sound reasonable,a nd so they should ignore it even more.

So with your lack of background in the topic, it will be interesting to see how he reacts. I suspect he'll just think you've been "got to" by the sophisticated disinfo campaign at metabunk, and will express sadness and frustration at this.

The key thing is to keep the focus on facts, history, and science - and not just "it sounds like something they would do, so I shall believe they do it, why do you trust the government?"
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
Yes the jones reference has come up, but this is all very new to me. It seems this subject is a gateway to the two worlds..conspiracy and the debunking there of. I've already told him at the moment I'm only interested in understanding the contrail phenomena, not de-population scenarios, or the saving of humanity by decreasing destructive solar radiation. He got a little annoyed at the suggestion he pick one or the other as the two seem counterproductive to each other..again, logic annoying those around me.

Their story relies on a focus on ONLY the "big picture" and broad innuendo. If you force him to focus on details he won't like it. They are always "connecting the dots" and refuse to realize that none of the individual dots can stand scrutiny.
 

Chute

New Member
"why do you trust the government?" The irony of being a government employee, I can simply argue with myself about the possibilities!
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
"why do you trust the government?" The irony of being a government employee, I can simply argue with myself about the possibilities!

I think you might be on the cusp of understanding.

Again...PM to me, and I will be happy to explain, at length.
 
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