Flight Activity Over Moorpark, Ventura County

Chute

New Member
I have nothing to offer pro or con relating to evidence of chemtrailing and weather modification. I came upon this site because of conversations with a few neighbors regarding the subject. I realize that in the past I haven't spent much time looking up to see what they were talking about ;I.E. Chemtrails. The subject first came up because I was complaining about what I perceived to be a change in flight paths over the area I live in.

Ventura county is the county north of Los Angeles county and I live there about 65 mi. North west of LAX. I was complaining to a neighbor regarding air traffic patterns over our city with some approaches low enough to hear changes in the pitch of engine noise as pilots make their approach. Sitting in my backyard of 16 yrs, I noticed at times I'd raise my voice in conversation because of the increased noise. My wife agreed this was new. The planes are always traveling from north to south, at differing elevations, but in a clearly defined narrow flight path stacked over each other into the distance. I'm assuming because of their low altitude, there are never contrails.

So I'm whining to my neighbor about the increased noise, and he points out the planes he's noticed flying at higher altitudes in a grid pattern leaving vapor trails for hours, at the time there was one going over head. Didn't give his hysteria much thought and went back to my bellyaching. So it's a few months later, I'm off work for an extended period with a severely torn rotator cuff. Every single day now, I notice sometimes up to four planes at high altitude criss crossing the sky and leaving a hopscotch grid of trails, non of which are following even closely the regular air traffic.

I'm a cop and a sceptic regarding conspiracies. I'm rational and pragmatic to the point of aggravation for those who live with me. That said, what I've observed for the past three months is clearly some type of deliberate activity outside of commuter air travel. I'll watch a plane fly off into the horizon leaving a trail which ends, and 10 minutes later a plane appears coming back leaving a parallel trail in equal measured distances, and so it goes, back and forth, north to south, others east to west. I'd be an idiot to deny the obvious, they are making a grid.

I don't know anymore than what I observe. 22 yrs as a cop, reasonable man theory has never failed me when questioning people's activity. I was hoping they were cloud seeding to end this damn drought, I remember reading the Chinese had done cloud seeding before the Olympics. I'm nonplussed re chemtrailing, but those are purposeful gridded flight patterns. Google mapping? Who knows. But you'll never convince me what I'm observing isn't intentional, and if it's intentional there is a purpose.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Hi Chute. I'm quite familiar with that airspace, as I live new LAX, and I often look at the local air traffic to see what's incoming (so I can take photos, or observe contrails).

It would be really helpful if you could post some photos of what you are seeing.

You say 65 miles NW of LAX, so somewhere just to the SE of Carpentaria? La Conchita?

A while ago I made a tool that shows you all the flights on a typical day
http://contrailscience.com/map/

Here are all the nearby flights:


You can filter it just for flights when they are above 30,000 ft.



A closer look:


You can see a grid is kind of expected. You have a lot of flyover traffic to LAX and San Diego, but also some traffic at right angles to this, going to Hawaii. (and even the LAX traffic will form grids when viewed from a shallow angle)
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
But you'll never convince me what I'm observing isn't intentional, and if it's intentional there is a purpose.
That's never a good starting point for someone who considers himself to be rational and pragmatic. There are good, straightforward ways to demonstrate to you that these flight patterns result from ordinary commercial air traffic, but you have to be willing to examine your own conclusions, or further discussion is pointless.
 

Chute

New Member
Mick, thanks for the beautiful paragraphs! I was estimating my distance off the top of my head, I'm in Moorpark. Is that damn thick blue line over my head? Disturbing my peaceful beer consumption. Seriously though, your images are great. Do you have access to older images of flight patterns? I'm wondering if I'm just more sensitive to noise in my old age, or if they moved the corridor and lowered approaches. Looks like I'm under a grid for sure. Is the information regarding each flight made public, would someone be able to argue that these flights are all commercial with specific flight info. Thanks!
 

Jason

Senior Member
But you'll never convince me what I'm observing isn't intentional, and if it's intentional there is a purpose.
If your mind is made up already, and there's no "convincing" you about the reality these claims, then why did you choose to come onto this site? Are you hoping to find like minded individuals to confirm your beliefs, or are you open to intelligent discussion?
 

Chute

New Member
You can convince me they are intentionally scheduled commercial flights. Don't muddle my meaning friend, I'm not asking for the unprovable.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Mick, thanks for the beautiful paragraphs! I was estimating my distance off the top of my head, I'm in Moorpark. Is that damn thick blue line over my head? Disturbing my peaceful beer consumption. Seriously though, your images are great. Do you have access to older images of flight patterns? I'm wondering if I'm just more sensitive to noise in my old age, or if they moved the corridor and lowered approaches. Looks like I'm under a grid for sure. Is the information regarding each flight made public, would someone be able to argue that these flights are all commercial with specific flight info. Thanks!
Moorpark is only 35 miles from LAX. Looks like a veritable crossroads in the sky there. Have a look at this aviation chart:


Notice the circle in the upper left. That's the Fillmore VOR navigational waypoint. The thick blue lines radiating from it are "Victor Airways" - the highways of the sky. Most traffic round here roughly follows these paths, and used the VORs to change direction.

The Fillmore VOR is just 7 miles north of Moorpark. Practically overhead in contrail terms.

One thing noise related might be airplanes beginning descent into LAX. Especially the newer A380 - you get several a day coming in from that direction, and you might hear the down-powering of the engines.
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I don't know if the time frame fits your observations at all, but the Fillmore VOR was destroyed in the fires of 2003. I'm not sure when it was restored, but this may have resulted in some changes in flight patterns around that time (both when it was destroyed, and when it was restored)
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
Every single day now, I notice sometimes up to four planes at high altitude criss crossing the sky and leaving a hopscotch grid of trails, non of which are following even closely the regular air traffic.
I can't help but wonder what you mean by that. Are you suggesting that the same 4 planes are making repeated passes over your area? If so, how did you determine they were the same 4 planes?
 

Chute

New Member
That's pretty much right over top of us. I definitely do not recall noise increased that far back though, it's more recent. Possibly the result of increased traffic requiring earlier descent, or as you say different model of aircraft.
 

Chute

New Member
Hama, I cannot determine from the ground if they are making repeated passes. I observe up to four at one time in flight at right angles to each other. This seemed odd to me as I had never noticed more than the planes en route to L.A.X. which annoyed me. Observing these planes in contrast (at much higher altitude and leaving a trail and not following the same flight path) caused me to search out info regarding my neighbors allegations of chemtrailing. My proclivity for believing most people are talking out the working end of their digestive tract brought me here for explanations.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
Hama, I cannot determine from the ground if they are making repeated passes. I observe up to four at one time in flight at right angles to each other. This seemed odd to me as I had never noticed more than the planes en route to L.A.X. which annoyed me. Observing these planes in contrast (at much higher altitude and leaving a trail and not following the same flight path) caused me to search out info regarding my neighbors allegations of chemtrailing. My proclivity for believing most people are talking out the working end of their digestive tract brought me here for explanations.
OK, but you sure seemed ready and willing to jump to the conclusion that "...non of which are following even closely the regular air traffic".
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Hama, I cannot determine from the ground if they are making repeated passes. I observe up to four at one time in flight at right angles to each other. This seemed odd to me as I had never noticed more than the planes en route to L.A.X. which annoyed me. Observing these planes in contrast (at much higher altitude and leaving a trail and not following the same flight path) caused me to search out info regarding my neighbors allegations of chemtrailing. My proclivity for believing most people are talking out the working end of their digestive tract brought me here for explanations.
Have you ever tried to identify the planes using FlightRadar24?

http://www.flightradar24.com/34.19,-118.93/10

A handy tip is to exclude planes above, say, 27,500 feet.


That cuts things down to just the planes that are likely to make contrails. And you can click on a plane to get info.


I also like to filter it for A38, so I can see when a big planes is coming over.
 

Chute

New Member
What I "perceived" to be regular air traffic would have been better, as I have no knowledge of flight paths beyond my own observations. It never occurred to me that planes not bound for L.A.X. may be flying in other patterns above local air traffic, if that is indeed what they do. Getting info, sorting it out.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Looking at the charts in combination with the animated map, looks like Fillmore gets a lot of traffic from the northwest along V-107, this largely turns and continues descending at this point, heading for the Catalina Island VOR. 2/3 of that makes a right turn at Malibu to head inland, then turn back around for LAX. The remainder continues to descend towards Catalina, then turns inland for John Wayne.

Nothing to do with what you see, but this traffic crosses above the LAX departure traffic, about 6,000 feet above it. People often don't imagine there is traffic flying over, or near an airport. But I've flown (myself) directly over LAX at 3,500 feet.

 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Here's an approach chart for LAX. Notice it's called the "Moorpark Three Arrival", as it goes over Moorpark.


Can be confusing, but just find the Fillmore VOR, and LAX, and that should give you context.

Notice the racetrack holding pattern at REYES
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
People often don't imagine there is traffic flying over, or near an airport. But I've flown (myself) directly over LAX at 3,500 feet.
I've gone over there at full cruising altitude, flying East-West on a flight from Atlanta direct to Honolulu a couple of years ago. I was interested to see that we went right over LAX.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I've gone over there at full cruising altitude, flying East-West on a flight from Atlanta direct to Honolulu a couple of years ago. I was interested to see that we went right over LAX.
Yes, LAX itself is a navigation waypoint, so planes fly over it at high altitude all the time.

Some of the chemtrail promoters like to claim that planes should never leave contrails within 5 miles of an airport, which is totally false.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/de...trails-within-5-miles-of-major-airports.1039/
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I'm moving this thread to the Skydentify forum. Even though there's no photo, it's still covering a lot of the same kind of investigations.
 

captfitch

Senior Member.
One more thing chute.... For the most part, there is no such thing as regular air traffic patterns. The exception is the traffic that exists relatively close to airports but even that can change based on a number of variables. The further a plane is from its origin and destination the less likely it is to be on a prescribed flight path.
 

NoParty

Senior Member.
I have nothing to offer pro or con relating to evidence of chemtrailing and weather modification. I came upon this site because of conversations with a few neighbors regarding the subject. I realize that in the past I haven't spent much time looking up to see what they were talking about ;I.E. Chemtrails. The subject first came up because I was complaining about what I perceived to be a change in flight paths over the area I live in.

Ventura county is the county north of Los Angeles county and I live there about 65 mi. North west of LAX. I was complaining to a neighbor regarding air traffic patterns over our city with some approaches low enough to hear changes in the pitch of engine noise as pilots make their approach. Sitting in my backyard of 16 yrs, I noticed at times I'd raise my voice in conversation because of the increased noise. My wife agreed this was new. The planes are always traveling from north to south, at differing elevations, but in a clearly defined narrow flight path stacked over each other into the distance. I'm assuming because of their low altitude, there are never contrails.

So I'm whining to my neighbor about the increased noise, and he points out the planes he's noticed flying at higher altitudes in a grid pattern leaving vapor trails for hours, at the time there was one going over head. Didn't give his hysteria much thought and went back to my bellyaching. So it's a few months later, I'm off work for an extended period with a severely torn rotator cuff. Every single day now, I notice sometimes up to four planes at high altitude criss crossing the sky and leaving a hopscotch grid of trails, non of which are following even closely the regular air traffic.

I'm a cop and a sceptic regarding conspiracies. I'm rational and pragmatic to the point of aggravation for those who live with me. That said, what I've observed for the past three months is clearly some type of deliberate activity outside of commuter air travel. I'll watch a plane fly off into the horizon leaving a trail which ends, and 10 minutes later a plane appears coming back leaving a parallel trail in equal measured distances, and so it goes, back and forth, north to south, others east to west. I'd be an idiot to deny the obvious, they are making a grid.

I don't know anymore than what I observe. 22 yrs as a cop, reasonable man theory has never failed me when questioning people's activity. I was hoping they were cloud seeding to end this damn drought, I remember reading the Chinese had done cloud seeding before the Olympics. I'm nonplussed re chemtrailing, but those are purposeful gridded flight patterns. Google mapping? Who knows. But you'll never convince me what I'm observing isn't intentional, and if it's intentional there is a purpose.
You had me at "...rational and pragmatic to the point of aggravation for those who live with me." :D

Mick, as usual, has done a great job with flight paths here, but what caught my eye was the "rotator cuff" section.

I remember thinking that there was very little boat traffic on the part of a N. California lake on which I build a base camp, and hike from, most summers.

Then a minor injury compelled me to temporarily curtail activity…so I just sat and watched the lake in a way I never had before.
I was astounded at the number of boats I saw…not a lot compared to some touristy lakes, but probably 3x what I'd have guessed.
 

Chute

New Member
Flightradar24 app purchased...
I would have assumed flight paths would be set in stone like freeways sorta speak. I'll take some pictures so you can explain for us what we are seeing. I hit my neighbor up at the mailbox tonight, gave him a quick rundown on this info. He gave me one of those head cocked to the side, squint eyed looks...priceless
 

captfitch

Senior Member.
Flightradar24 app purchased...
I would have assumed flight paths would be set in stone like freeways sorta speak.
I don't know why people stick to this idea... It's a massive sky. The goal is to get from point a to b in the shortest distance possible. Arrival, departures, airways and waypoints be damned.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I don't know why people stick to this idea... It's a massive sky. The goal is to get from point a to b in the shortest distance possible. Arrival, departures, airways and waypoints be damned.
Where I live about 90% of the planes I see from my backyard are on what seems to be the EXACT same flight path (i.e. descending into LAX on the north downwind leg, indicated by the three red arrows above). So I can certainly see how they get the idea. The rest are just randomly flying up or down the coast, but at high altitude, so are hard to see unless they leave a suspicious contrail. Very rarely I'll see a Hawaii flight at right angles to this.
 
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Chute

New Member
A pilots perspective obviously places one at ease with a "fly wherever you please" system of aviation. Like I said, pragmatist...any interruption of forward progress in a commercial aircraft as a result of two objects trying occupy the same space at 3500 ft, causes me to feel some angst. Now if you don't mind, I'd appreciate it if you left me with the fantasy that our airspace is as tightly controlled and monitored as a pre 1980's East German neighborhood.
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
A pilots perspective obviously places one at ease with a "fly wherever you please" system of aviation. Like I said, pragmatist...any interruption of forward progress in a commercial aircraft as a result of two objects trying occupy the same space at 3500 ft, causes me to feel some angst. Now if you don't mind, I'd appreciate it if you left me with the fantasy that our airspace is as tightly controlled and monitored as a pre 1980's East German neighborhood.
Oh it's tightly controlled and monitored. ATC watches you every step of the way, and keeps you miles away (horizontally) from other traffic.

Pilots can just request to "fly direct" to a particular point, and ATC will let them if there's nothing in the way. Even small planes flying VFR (visual navigation) are on the radar, and often in contact with ATC for "flight following"

With LAX approach, things are on rails. Very busy sky, but all organized.
 

captfitch

Senior Member.
Actually Mick, that does make sense... The vast majority of aircraft that the public sees are close to the ground where the likelihood of being on prescribed flight paths is much, much higher. Even if it is just a downwind leg which isn't a route or airway but a maneuver.

I guess I oversimplified my responses because when someone uses the "proof" of aircraft sightings that are not on "normal" flight paths it irritates me. To me, at least, it implies a level of knowledge of airspace management, ATC, aircraft performance and geography that I'm fairly certain the person doesn't have.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Actually Mick, that does make sense... The vast majority of aircraft that the public sees are close to the ground where the likelihood of being on prescribed flight paths is much, much higher. Even if it is just a downwind leg which isn't a route or airway but a maneuver.

I guess I oversimplified my responses because when someone uses the "proof" of aircraft sightings that are not on "normal" flight paths it irritates me. To me, at least, it implies a level of knowledge of airspace management, ATC, aircraft performance and geography that I'm fairly certain the person doesn't have.
Yeah, people basically go by their own experience. After a while watching the sky you get a feel for what is normal - but that's just normal for your observations - not necessarily a broad overview.
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
Actually Mick, that does make sense... The vast majority of aircraft that the public sees are close to the ground where the likelihood of being on prescribed flight paths is much, much higher. Even if it is just a downwind leg which isn't a route or airway but a maneuver.

I guess I oversimplified my responses because when someone uses the "proof" of aircraft sightings that are not on "normal" flight paths it irritates me. To me, at least, it implies a level of knowledge of airspace management, ATC, aircraft performance and geography that I'm fairly certain the person doesn't have.
I agree. For example- at SFO they have 2 sets of run ways at different angles to each other and thus take-offs and landings can be drastically different from day-to-day depending on weather - and with high volume its hard to discern a visible pattern- and this is just with SFO and doesn't include OAK or San Jose which are both within 30 miles of SFO:


Here is an interesting discussion highlighting the variances and variables on "preferred" routes and shortest distances etc to SFO:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/969442/
 

Chute

New Member
I guess I oversimplified my responses because when someone uses the "proof" of aircraft sightings that are not on "normal" flight paths it irritates me. To me, at least, it implies a level of knowledge of airspace management, ATC, aircraft performance and geography that I'm fairly certain the person doesn't have.
I (someone) am monitoring the forum, you can of course direct your reasons for stating something a certain way, dismissively, to me. I don't believe I stated my observations were "proof" of anything, as i made clear the purpose of these grid patterns were unknown to me. When people put words in your mouth it IS irritating. I simply said in very wordy fashion, I had begun to observe phenomena not previously noticed by me that appear intentional or more precisely,directed (right angles do not strike me as indicative of random occurrence). I entered the forum precisely for the opposite reason you are- implying? I have no knowledge of airspace management, and made clear my mea culpa regarding that fact. No need for the drive by kick in the ribs. Information I welcome, an imperious attitude will just piss me off.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
I guess I oversimplified my responses because when someone uses the "proof" of aircraft sightings that are not on "normal" flight paths it irritates me. To me, at least, it implies a level of knowledge of airspace management, ATC, aircraft performance and geography that I'm fairly certain the person doesn't have.

I (someone) am monitoring the forum, you can of course direct your reasons for stating something a certain way, dismissively, to me. I don't believe I stated my observations were "proof" of anything, as i made clear the purpose of these grid patterns were unknown to me. When people put words in your mouth it IS irritating. I simply said in very wordy fashion, I had begun to observe phenomena not previously noticed by me that appear intentional or more precisely,directed (right angles do not strike me as indicative of random occurrence). I entered the forum precisely for the opposite reason you are- implying? I have no knowledge of airspace management, and made clear my mea culpa regarding that fact. No need for the drive by kick in the ribs. Information I welcome, an imperious attitude will just piss me off.
On the other hand, when you come on with definitive declarations like this one: "...non of which are following even closely the regular air traffic", as if your POV is based on some sort of solid background in the subject, you have poor footing for calling others on their "imperious attitude".
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I (someone) am monitoring the forum, you can of course direct your reasons for stating something a certain way, dismissively, to me. I don't believe I stated my observations were "proof" of anything, as i made clear the purpose of these grid patterns were unknown to me. When people put words in your mouth it IS irritating. I simply said in very wordy fashion, I had begun to observe phenomena not previously noticed by me that appear intentional or more precisely,directed (right angles do not strike me as indicative of random occurrence). I entered the forum precisely for the opposite reason you are- implying? I have no knowledge of airspace management, and made clear my mea culpa regarding that fact. No need for the drive by kick in the ribs. Information I welcome, an imperious attitude will just piss me off.
To be fair though Chute, you did say:

... I'd be an idiot to deny the obvious, they are making a grid.

... I'm nonplussed re chemtrailing, but those are purposeful gridded flight patterns. Google mapping? Who knows. But you'll never convince me what I'm observing isn't intentional, and if it's intentional there is a purpose.
When the reality is they are NOT deliberately making a grid. They are just flying from point A to point B, (and C to D) and the grid is a side effect. And your "you'll never convince me" might rub people the wrong way.

Let's move on though. No biggie.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
So, any photos? I see quite a few contrails today.

And you know it's set to rain tomorrow and friday (edit: actually though Saturday, I'm busy fixing my caulking now). That usually brings contrail-friendly weather the days before.
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
apologies, moving on.
"Chute"...if you have any questions, please do not hesitate to direct them to me, if your questions involve aviation, airplanes, and meteorology. I would be happy to assist in answering any queries you have.

I say this as a retired airline pilot...who happens to have some "free time" on his hands. (In between my hobbies).

So, ....Ask Away!!
 

Chute

New Member
Non here today, at least non i can see as there low clouds. Air traffic along the moorpark arrival has been very light.
 
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