Flight 5342 crash into Potomac River

[TEEJ]

Does the UH-60L Blackhawk have radar?
-Apologies if I've misunderstood.

The UH-60L involved in the accident would not be radar equipped. It would have to have been converted with a nose pod. The nose pod would carry weather/terrain following radar.

 

[Mauro]

I think it's only got non-active (bleh!) capabilities

Having only passive capabilities is not necessarily 'bleh'. In a combat mission an helo would always keep its radar off, not to advertise his presence to everybody with a radar warning receiver tens of miles around.

 

[FatPhil]

Having only passive capabilities is not necessarily 'bleh'. In a combat mission an helo would always keep its radar off, not to advertise his presence to everybody with a radar warning receiver tens of miles around.

My "bleh" was at having to use the term "non-active" rather than "passive", as "passive" has a more specific meaning in this context (which this doesn't satisfy).

 

[MapperGuy]

wasnt it the secret service? but yea and the kansas senator said the first night of the crash that flight was only a year old and he pushed it through.

(i still blame the military because i personally see absolutely no reason helicopters need to fly through there.)

Could have been the US Secret Service. All I remember is that the locals liked having it shut down, but Congress-critters felt they were being unnecessarily inconvenienced. Proximity to the Capitol Building is why it was reopened.

It's not even a 24 hour a day airport, noise regulations limit late night flights. Flew in there one time, flight was delayed, arrived at like 11pm, the place was totally deserted, just us getting off the plane and a couple of TSA guys at one x-ray machine.

 

[deirdre]

Article:

Updated on: February 7, 2025 / 9:04 AM EST / CBS News

The Army Black Hawk helicopter that collided with an American Eagle flight over the Potomac River late last month was flying with a safety system turned off, Sen. Ted Cruz told reporters Thursday following a closed door briefing by the Federal Aviation Administration and National Transportation Safety Board.

...
He said senators were told the helicopter had its automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B) system turned off. Military aircraft are allowed to fly with that system off.

ADS-B provides detailed granular information to track aircraft locations. The Blackhawk had a transponder, so it would have appeared on radar and was providing flight data, though the ADS-B is much more accurate.

Source: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/black-hawk-helicopter-dc-plane-crash-safety-system-off-senator-says/

 

[deirdre]

NTSB update Feb 14, 2025

basics:
-all indications goggles on
-BH at 278 feet, CRJ at 313.
-some instructions not heard on BH voice recorder due to mic keying.
-discrepancies in data regarding what the crew were seeing in BH cockpit regarding altitude. expert explains more at 13:00 in video.

NTSB have perishable evidence they need
BH-check ride for pilot flying , a practical exam.
3 types of exams
-instrument
-annual
-night vision goggles

this was a combined annual and night vision check ride.

likely wearing night vision goggles throught the flight. "Had they been removed, the crew was required to have a discussion about going unaided". There is no evidence on cock pit voice recorder of such a discussion.

[2:45] details of both plane and helicopter routes, comms

[4:49] "at 8:43:48 the Bh was about 1.1 nautical miles west of the key bridge.
the pilot flying indicated they were at 300 feet. the instructor pilot indicated they were at 400 feet. neither pilot made a comment discussing an altitude discrepancy."

"8:45 :30 BH passed over memorial bridge. Instructor pilot told pilot flying that they were at 300 feet and needed to descend. The pilot flying said they would descend to 200 feet."

we are now at 2 mins before the crash.
a radio transmission from the tower was audible on the CRJ CVR
informing the Blackhawk that traffic just south of the Wilson Bridge was a crj at 1200 ft circling to Runway 33.
CVR data from the Blackhawk indicated
that the portion of the transmission stating the crj was circling may not have been received by the Blackhawk crew.

we hear the word circling in ATC Communications, but we do not hear the word circling on the CVR of the Blackhawk. The recorders group is evaluating this right now

[8:45:00] 20 seconds before impact, a radio transmission from the tower was audible on both CVRs.

17 seconds before impact "pass behind the CRJ" the phrase "pass behind the" may not have been received by the BH crew. transmission was stepped on by a .8 second mic key from the Black Hawk.

the instructor pilot told the pilot they believed ATC was asking for the helicopter to move left.

at 7 seconds before impact, the CRj was at a radio altitude of 344 feet. 143 knots.

1 second before impact, the CRJ began to increase its pitch. reaching about 9 degrees nose up at time of collision. elevators at maximum nose up travel.
roll was 11 degrees left wing down.

last recorded altitude for CRJ was 313 feet. recorded 2 seconds prior to collision.

radio altitude of Black Hawk at time of collision was 278 feet and had been steady for the previous 5 seconds. Black Hawk pitch at time of collision was about .5 degree nose up. left roll of 1.6 degrees.

CONFIDENT of altitude of Black Hawk but they are not sure that is what the pilots were seeing in cockpit.

[12:50] Sean Paine -Recorder expert at NTSB-explains conflicts they see in the Black Hawk data.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od_8bbO7Tt4

 

[deirdre]

Live update started 9 mins ago

-helicopter/plane separations are "intolerable" in the area of Rte 4 between Haynes point and Wilson Bridge. so they are recommending shutting that area down to helicopters permanently.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUIj5-RKUKA

 

[Mendel]

The NTSB has issued their preliminary accident report and an accident investigation report with two urgent safety recommendations. These are available via https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/DCA25MA108.aspx .

In any aircraft accident investigation, there's a preliminary report after about a month. It contains the "obvious" facts, i.e. it describes what happened. How and why it happened is set down in the final report, which can take a year or more to produce.

Here's what I found important:

1) The Blackhawk's voice recorder indicates that the crew did not receive key information from ATC that would have helped them understand the situation.

2) At the time of the collision, the jet's left wing was low, and its aft end was down (i.e. the pilot was likely trying to evade left and up); the helicopter severed that wing, and its tail rotor hit the back end of the aircraft. The right wing then rolled the aircraft through 1¼ turn.

3) The DCA airport has a history of dangerous situations. NTSB chair Jennifer Homendy read out the following information at the latest briefing. She indicated that the FAA was examing other airports for these types of danger signs.

4) The accident investigation report is very clear that operating runway 33/15 and heli route 4 simultaneously is a bad idea, and should stop.

The NTSB is planning visibility studies and witness interviews to get a clearer picture of what the situation looked like from each cockpit and from the tower. They're also going to look at tower staffing, and at how the army is using the ADS-B transponders on its Blackhawk fleet. For now, most helicopter traffic on route 4 is suspended via NOTAM, but that's not a long-term solution.

 

[Mendel]

For comparison:

Article:

The Golden Gate Bridge's clearance above high water averages 220 feet (67 m)

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Gate_Bridge

Now imagine an airliner and a helicopter passing below the Golden Gate Bridge on top of each other, and you get an idea what the safety situation at DCA was like. There's not a lot of margin for error.