Flight 5342 crash into Potomac River

"Constant bearing, decreasing range" is exactly the phenomenon I meant but didn't know it had a name. I'm sure most of us have noticed this when driving, if you are approaching a crossroads at the same speed as another vehicle at right angles to you, the other vehicle stays at a constant angle from you, simply getting slowly bigger, and is less visually obvious than something moving across your field of view.
I was taught that as a handy way to know if you were on a safe tack when sailing and approaching another vessel -- especially useful at night when the seeing is not great. If the bearing is constant, the range is decreasing (or you can't tell), turn a few degrees to be on the safe side, and then keep an eye on it! Conversely, if the bearing is changing, you're good -- but keep an eye on it!
 
The experts might have read it on Metabunk.;)
My siblings and I were discussing the crash in a group text and one brother was explaining he had seen a Youtube video with a common sense explanation fairly early on. I said lemme guess, from Mick West? He was like how the hell did you know that? I said I keep telling you guys to join Metabunk, but you just won't listen to your little brother...Lol
 
I was taught that as a handy way to know if you were on a safe tack when sailing and approaching another vessel -- especially useful at night when the seeing is not great. If the bearing is constant, the range is decreasing (or you can't tell), turn a few degrees to be on the safe side, and then keep an eye on it! Conversely, if the bearing is changing, you're good -- but keep an eye on it!
I was taught the same thing by my first flight instructor. She said if its in the air and not (apparently) moving its a red flag. Always assume its decreasing range (usually correct given the speed of aircraft). If its on your right, turn a little to the right immediately and vice versa on the left. This would tend to make you pass behind the other aircraft. Don't wait! Do it now! You can very quickly determine if the constant bearing craft is decreasing range and then take appropriate action. She also cautioned that if the other pilot did the same thing at the same time you could end up in a converging track and you had to be ready to take more aggressive action.
At night though you are primarily dependent on lights if you are flying VFR and distant ground lights can look the same as a CBDR. Also, your visual distance clues suck are less than optimal.
 
Trump now states that the helicopter was too high:

External Quote:
Donal J. Trump
The Blackhawk helicopter was flying too high, by a lot. It was far above the 200 foot limit. That's not really too complicated to understand, is it???
1738362072840.png


source: https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/113923147334338299
 
IS there such a limit? That seems insanely low, but I don't know if there are special rules for helicopters near airports...

In the video I linked above the commentator also mentions (0:21) the helicopter may have been above it's allowed altitude and cites the New York Times as the source.
 
External Quote:
The Black Hawk helicopter that collided with a passenger jet in Washington on Wednesday was on a training flight along a route core to a seldom-discussed military mission to evacuate senior officials to safety in the event of an attack on the U.S., officials say.

The military mission, known as "continuity of government" and "continuity of operations," is meant to preserve the ability of the U.S. government to operate.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/cr...as-responsible-doomsday-readiness-2025-02-01/

So if this report is correct, we now know what the helo crew was training for.
 
Trump now states that the helicopter was too high:

External Quote:
Donal J. Trump
The Blackhawk helicopter was flying too high, by a lot. It was far above the 200 foot limit. That's not really too complicated to understand, is it???
View attachment 76771

source: https://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/113923147334338299
Hegseth had already said there was an altitude issue involved. Just prior (or after? I don't recall exactly) Trump saying it was "common sense" that DEI was involved.
 
I wonder if a simply wording change might have made a difference.
ie something like: do you have a visual and radar track on the flight coming in to land on your left.
 
they were all on their left.

maybe "stop moving."
These kinds of interactions appear to be very common in that area so there would have been no reason to tell the helicopter to stop, especially since it appeared that the ATC believed the helicopter had the appropriate jet in sight.

However, just because dangerous scenarios were survived in the past does not mean that each future dangerous scenario will be survived.
 
These kinds of interactions appear to be very common in that area so there would have been no reason to tell the helicopter to stop, especially since it appeared that the ATC believed the helicopter had the appropriate jet in sight.

However, just because dangerous scenarios were survived in the past does not mean that each future dangerous scenario will be survived.
it does look like the helicopter went from 2 to 300 feet right before the warning alarms went off. i'm not sure that is common, but maybe it is.
1738515576395.png
 
it does look like the helicopter went from 2 to 300 feet right before the warning alarms went off. i'm not sure that is common, but maybe it is.
What is common is the combined traffic between the helicopters and the commercial air traffic. Everything I have heard and read said that the helicopter was flying above its designated flight ceiling for that part of its route. Perhaps the ATC gave too much deference to the helo pilot after they acknowledged 'sight' of the CRJ and were directed to fly behind it.
 
it does look like the helicopter went from 2 to 300 feet right before the warning alarms went off. i'm not sure that is common, but maybe it is.
The Mode-S reporting seems to be in multiples of 100 feet. So it might be going from 295 to 300 feet. It might also be inaccurate.

We really need the flight data recorder to find out what happened.
 
So it might be going from 295 to 300 feet
yea but 295 is too high. that was my point, the atc guy maybe wouldnt know that meant 295 but once it hit 3 he maybe should have said "check your altitude" or something. whether the readings were wrong or not (lets hope they arent too wrong, i assume altitude is kinda important when flying planes)

add: the NTSB guy yesterday in conference said something about a possible 3-5 second delay in tower, but...thats probably not good either.
 
I did a little bit more digging, there has been information repeated that the helicopter was a VH-60M "Gold Top", but this is incorrect. A photo of the accident aircraft 00-26860 shows this is a UH-60L on a few points:
  1. Regular 60L blades, not with the 60M down swept (anhedral) tips
  2. Door covers on the inset fuselage steps behind the cargo door
Of note is that to my knowledge, a 60L cannot be converted to a 60M model as the airframes are substantially different. This also makes it way more likely that the aircraft in question had a legacy 60L steam avionics package.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...0L_Black_Hawk_00-26860_10_30_18_(cropped).jpg
1738688621173.png
 
I have to say, if I suspected that any flight that I had booked was ever going to pass within 200 feet of anyone just using 'visual flight rules' to identify my plane....I'd cancel that flight immediately. This particular accident simply should not have happened, whatever the cause. It is yet another of those case where hindsight will reveal procedural errors that should have been blindingly obvious at the time. Yet another case where the FAA will recommend changes that should have been recommended years ago.
 
I have to say, if I suspected that any flight that I had booked was ever going to pass within 200 feet of anyone just using 'visual flight rules' to identify my plane....I'd cancel that flight immediately. This particular accident simply should not have happened, whatever the cause. It is yet another of those case where hindsight will reveal procedural errors that should have been blindingly obvious at the time. Yet another case where the FAA will recommend changes that should have been recommended years ago.
I've been wondering when someone was going to question the idea of everything would have been OK had the helo been flying at 200 ft UNDER a commercial airliner on final approach and seconds before touch down.
 
I've been wondering when someone was going to question the idea of everything would have been OK had the helo been flying at 200 ft UNDER a commercial airliner on final approach and seconds before touch down.
This is what I was wondering. I would think 100' of vertical separation on approach is not SOP?
 
maybe they were, the NTSB guy on saturday got all emotional saying there were a bunch of recommendations just sitting in some file cabinet.
View attachment 76915

After 9/11 all of the airports were closed.
The last major airport to be re-opened was Reagan National.
The FAA strongly urged that it not be reopened because of air traffic congestion and security issues, both on the ground and in the air.
An incoming highjacked airplane, that air traffic controllers did not know was highjacked, could follow the normal route and only within seconds of landing could suddenly change direction and fly into all sorts of government buildings. The number of buildings, and the river are so close to the approach path that people with machine guns or surface to air missiles could find endless places to fire on an incoming plane from, again within secconds of its landing.
So WHY did it reopen?? Because Congress insisted on it, by threatening to shut down the aviation industry unless it was reopened!
Why? Because that is the most convenient airport for members of Congress to use to fly home from. The drives to Dulles or BWI airports are just too long for them.
 
The FAA strongly urged that it not be reopened
wasnt it the secret service? but yea and the kansas senator said the first night of the crash that flight was only a year old and he pushed it through.

(i still blame the military because i personally see absolutely no reason helicopters need to fly through there.)
 
I've been wondering when someone was going to question the idea of everything would have been OK had the helo been flying at 200 ft UNDER a commercial airliner on final approach and seconds before touch down.

Well, such regular practice would be a recipe for disaster. An accident waiting to happen. And it did. I mean, here in the UK we get newspaper horror stories if two craft pass within 1000 feet of each other.
 
the atc did tell them to go BEHIND the jet, not under

And the entire system, with all its expensive TCAS system and radar and other gizmos falls apart if 'the jet' identified using visual flight rules is the wrong one. As with the Challenger disaster and a host of other such incidents, this was a disaster just waiting to happen. Any regular viewer of Mentour Pilot ( a Youtube channel that deals in air accidents with some detail ) will know that all too often the 'recommendations' that are made after an accident were for procedural or technical faults that were blindingly obvious before the accident.
 
Why? Because that is the most convenient airport for members of Congress to use to fly home from. The drives to Dulles or BWI airports are just too long for them.
Reagan is the busiest airport in the region, more so than Dulles or BWI.

External Quote:
Ranked by departures per day. This is only counting passenger flights, I can't find a good source for ALL flights including cargo, the other two would likely catch up a bit if cargo was counted, they are better positioned for access to the highway system.
https://www.flightsfrom.com/top-100-airports-in-north-america

Closing Reagan National would do more than inconveniences members of Congress, you'd have to either cut back significantly on flights into and out of the region, or overload the remaining airports., which would also raise potential safety issues.

But yeah, I'm right there with anybody who is concerned about the security issues -- the flight path north of the airport is extremely close to everything in DC.
Screenshot 2025-02-04 211758.jpg

(Pic clipped tonight from FlightRadar24, edited by adding a yellow line for the approximate flight path north of the Airport, and copying the scale up by the outbound plane to make it easier to see just how close it is to... everything.)
 
I'm not sure it [UH-60L Blackhawk] does carry radar, can anyone confirm? Blackhawk variants like some MH-60s, Pave Hawk do.

I think it's only got non-active (bleh!) capabilities:

External Quote:
The UH-60A is equipped with VHF-FM, UHF-FM, and VHF-AM/FM radios, as well as encrypted IFF recognition system. For self defense, the Black Hawk is equipped with an AN/APR-39 (v) 1 radar warning receiver, as well as an AN/ALQ-144 infrared countermeasures system and chaff/flare dispenser.
https://www.military.com/equipment/uh-60a-l-black-hawk

This RWR is also known as "Radar Signal Detection Set", and the clues are in the names "receiver" and "signal detection" - they listen, that's all.
 
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