Discussions with chemtrailers on facebook

firepilot

Senior Member.
• Aluminum is the most abundant metal in soil. So all rainwater results that show the various metals, and always including aluminum, can always be debunked as “soil in the air” contamination

Wow, just wow. I mean thats totally correct and all, but that statement there by "Chemtrails Project" debunks one of the biggest claims of the chemtrail conspiracy right there. Someone better tell Dane Wigington and MJM about this, they will not be happy.
 

Des O

New Member
It would be interesting to see the actual lab results. But they are also somewhat meaningless unless they detail the collection methods and apparatus.

That's right Mick. The biggest factor when sampling dissolved metals in water is the whole filtering process. The chemtrails project does not state if they field filter or not. Sometimes the labs will do it before the analysis, but by then the samples have spent a few days in close contact to soil particle and will have inflated dissolved metals results regardless.

Is anyone here on facebook and not banned from commenting on Chemtrails Project facebook page? We need someone to innocently ask what the standard sampling procedure should be in regards to field filtering.
 

firepilot

Senior Member.
I've already posted that evidence, go look for yourself.. I'm not here to spoon feed you like a small child. I'm here as an adult to show you stuff and you go do a little work. That's my role as a chemtrailologist. Does you college professor do your homework for you? That's assuming that you have a college education.. ok.. Did you high school teacher do your homework for you.. no.. So to just sit on that back side and eat twinkies all day and ask someone to get you a beer may work in your house but not mine. I expect adults to act like adults and when a horrific public health hazard like this comes up I expect for people to drop their game controller and twinkie or whatever they are tugging at and get to work.

Aluminum levels are rising, government doc show that all over this is serious.. you guy act like it's all going to be ok when you run out of food and they blame drought, when it was the chemtrails.. I know it's happening over your head and to your children or domestic partner, so do something darn it.. :cool:

No, its not my job to do your work for you. Its your job to back up your own claims with evidence, not to tell everyone else to do research so that you can not be bothered with it.
 

Des O

New Member


[h=6]Chemtrails Project
[/h][h=6]Strontium in Rainwater Analysis:

For those who have seen the last several rainwater reports we have released, we are seeing elevated levels of Strontium with no Aluminum. Here is an interesting note from a biologist we work with:

"...very good proof that we are not sampling dirt in the air, or we would get some aluminum"

- The presence of strontium indicates that the rain cannot be contaminated by dirt. If it was contaminated by dirt it would include levels of aluminum as it is the most abundant heavy metal contained in soil.[/h]Share · 4 hours ago ·
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I asked them if they used a filter. They seem a bit cagey about discussing the procedure.

They do have a procedure posted for collecting chem webs, although their lab of choice is a litte dubious:

http://www.facebook.com/chemtrailsproject?sk=app_160430850678443

Email us your address and we will send you a free web collection kit (sample container, label and gloves).
Email free kit request to: jjnotes01@gmail.com
When collecting your web sample, please follow the below Chain-of-Custody as designed by the Carnicom Institute (http://www.carnicominstitute.org/) who will be testing and analyzing all of the webs for us.
Chain-of-Custody:
  1. Wear gloves for collection – preferably nitrile gloves (available in all drug stores, better than latex)
  2. If you don’t have a kit from us (which comes with a label to fill out on the sample container), then please include the below information with the sample when you send it:
    1. Time
    2. Date
    3. Location
    4. Collection source area (example – tree, grass, ground, etc)
  3. If you don’t have a sample container from us, and want to collect in your own container, please use an airtight plastic of glass container
  4. Take initial photo – approx. 2-5 ft from the web to show the “collection source area” as well as the “Web”
  5. Take 2nd photo – “Web” close-up
  6. Take 3rd photo – “Web” sample being bottled in the container
  7. Take 4th photo – of the sealed container
  8. Video of steps #5-#7 above is also acceptable. Please email photos or video to: jjnotes01@gmail.com
  9. Mail the sample container to the below address:
Carnicom Institute
P. O. Box 23721
Santa Fe, NM 87502
 

Des O

New Member
I saw that on the site Mick. Thanks. So they don't filter which debunks all the high aluminum results as that can be explained by dust. The strontium with no aluminum is actually a little puzzling. Of course the levels that they quote are completely safe and you would find clean groundwater with much higher concentrations.

Ya the chemweb testing lab looks a little shady.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
The strontium with no aluminum is actually a little puzzling.

I wonder if that has to do samples being taken after rain - so the initial rainfall washes the aluminum mineral dust out of the air, but the strontium and barium compounds are different - and more ubiquitous in rainwater?

A zero level for Al seems rather suspicious though.

You'd need to know a lot more about how the sample was taken, where, when, and the preceding weather, for it to be explicable.
 

Des O

New Member
I have found references that Strontium can be expected in rainwater and that several common Sr compounds will dissolve in water more readily that aluminum. Of course Strontium is very common in rain close to the ocean, as well as areas around coal burning.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
They just deleted that comment thread. I lost what I wrote, but his responses were:

Chemtrails Project wrote: "Hey Mick, when you get a kit it includes:

1) Instructions for collection
2) Lab issued container for rain sample
3) Simple chain-of-custody document for the lab
4) Address for sending sample into the lab

tks!"

Chemtrails Project wrote: "My partner who sends the kits from Florida has them, they go out as a hard copy. It has to do with collecting the first 20 mins of rain and advices how much to fill of the container for a proper sample to test"

Chemtrails Project wrote: "I will ask him to post. Are you thinking about ordering a kit, or do you have a specific question(s)?"

Chemtrails Project wrote: "no filter, not left out overnight, collected from uncovered area. Read above, recent results (no aluminum) are ruling out the possibility for soil contamination"

Chemtrails Project wrote: "We have 7 reports with strontium / barium and no aluminum, from 7 different regions. The most alarming was Redding, CA, which was over 700 ug/l strontium with no aluminum. It would seem to be possible if put there on purpose, by man, to act as a conductor (or some other arm or agenda)"

Chemtrails Project wrote: "The kit costs $49 ($44 for testing at the 3rd party lab, $5 for shipping). Look to the left, there is a tab with info on the lab"



And then I got a message that said something like:

"Mick West, are you from contrail..."

Then that was deleted.

I guess they don't actually want to discuss the science.

Oh, and I'm now banned from posting on that page :(
 

Des O

New Member
You didn't say a single contradictory or negative thing. Wow. I asked about the filtering of rainwater and they deleted my posts. They are not in this for the science. If they were really interested in the science they would be open about all their methods. They are obviously in the buisness of spreading fear.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I have changed the word "Fun" in the thread title to "Discussions", as "fun" might have been taken to imply you were baiting them, which I don't think your were.

I don't want people getting the impression that this site is performing some kind of organized disruption. Looking at the posts made, it should be clear we are just looking at the science.
 

Des O

New Member
`Fun`was meant for all the fun things they would call me. I agree that discussion is a better word though.
 

PCWilliams

Senior Member.
They just deleted that comment thread. I lost what I wrote, but his responses were:



And then I got a message that said something like:



Then that was deleted.

I guess they don't actually want to discuss the science.

Oh, and I'm now banned from posting on that page :(

So, this entire testing process is 100% free to the Facebook person doing the collecting in the field? Am i the only one finding this a bit suspicious? What organization has the funding (or the desire) to spend potentially millions of dollars shipping, receiving and testing samples collected by a bunch of Facebook novices from who-knows-where? What ups my suspicion is their apparent reluctance to answer legitimate questions posed by people on this forum. It smells more like a data collection scam … names, emails, addresses.

:confused:

P.S. I still can't get past the word "chemtrailologist".
 

PCWilliams

Senior Member.
Okay, this is what i found. The lab doing the testing is called the "CARNICOM INSTITUTE" (http://tinyurl.com/72ws6ct). The President of this "institute" is Clifford E. Carnicom (http://tinyurl.com/6woeygn). Do a quick search on google using this guy's name and the word "chemtrails" and you get a taste of his chemtrail activism: http://tinyurl.com/6pb97bf

This guy is a diehard chemtrail activist. Here is a video of him and Alex Jones discussing chemtrails:



:D

P.S. Clifford Carnicom used to have a site at http://www.carnicom.com/ but it is now defunct. But … archives of his defunct web page, titled "AEROSOL CRIMES & COVER UP" is archived here: http://tinyurl.com/6mwxgeq

To view the complete archive history of his web page, go here: http://tinyurl.com/84pbhlu
 

Danny55

Senior Member.
The rain testing costs $50, it's the "CHEMWEB" testing which is free. The rain samples are tested at the lab mentioned on 1st page of this thread. The "web" samples appear to be sent to a Morgellons expert in Cyprus, think her name is Carter. Saw this info on their page a few weeks ago.
 

firepilot

Senior Member.
Okay, this is what i found. The lab doing the testing is called the "CARNICOM INSTITUTE" (http://tinyurl.com/72ws6ct). The President of this "institute" is Clifford E. Carnicom (http://tinyurl.com/6woeygn). Do a quick search on google using this guy's name and the word "chemtrails" and you get a taste of his chemtrail activism: http://tinyurl.com/6pb97bf

This guy is a diehard chemtrail activist. Here is a video of him and Alex Jones discussing chemtrails:



:D

P.S. Clifford Carnicom used to have a site at http://www.carnicom.com/ but it is now defunct. But … archives of his defunct web page, titled "AEROSOL CRIMES & COVER UP" is archived here: http://tinyurl.com/6mwxgeq

To view the complete archive history of his web page, go here: http://tinyurl.com/84pbhlu

Sounded like Alex Jones was acting like he discovered chemtrails.

Actually the Carnicom site is still up, just the front page diverts to his "Institute". Well I have always thought that some really do need to be institutionalized. Here is his famous Red Blood Cell nonsense, that starting the chemmies all claiming that it was being found everywhere in trails.

http://www.carnicom.com/bio1.htm
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
I had plenty of dealings with Carnicom, since about 1999.
He has been "researching" these spiderwebs for 12 years now.
First thing he sent one to Carol Browner head of EPA, and told her to analyze it.

(Hint: NEVER send 'unidentified' material in jars to senior semi-cabinet level Federal officials,
unless you really WANT an FBI file!)

They never opened it, but I wore them down with FOIA and got them to finally respond:
http://goodsky.homestead.com/files/FOIA.html

Next, I showed him EXACTLY how to get it analyzed and what to look for:
http://goodsky.homestead.com/files/silk.html

Next, I debunked his particulate panic:
http://goodsky.homestead.com/files/particles.html

Lastly, I debunked his claim to have analyzed barium by looking at the sun wth a spectrometer:
http://goodsky.homestead.com/files/bariumreport.html

By 2003, Carnicom was raving that chemtrails had increased the rotation of the earth, and I decided it wasn't fair to continue debunking a man who was exhibiting signs of mental illness.
http://www.carnicominstitute.org/articles/time1.htm

12 years on, and Carnicom has NEVER displayed an actual lab analysis of ANY of his webs.
I think he collects them like some people collect fingernail clippings.

He really enjoys playing the role of 'mad scientist' and actually has people over at his "Institute" where he digs in their flesh and extracts 'Morgellons" fibers as he did some years ago to himself:
Clifford Carnicom said:
It may also be of interest to recall an earlier report filed in December of 2003 entitled, Unusual Medical Finding. There may or may not be a relationship between the December 2003 event and the current affliction of this report. The latter report has historically received some attention from those that chose to attempt to discredit the aerosol and Morgellons issues. It was often stated that the subject(i.e., this researcher) self-inflicted unnecessary pain during that fiber removal process. It is fair to say that that the amount of pain incurred in the pre-emptive 2003 event was quite minor relative to what the subject of this current report endured. People may wish to keep that fact in mind as the magnitude of the Morgellon's issue is more fully understood.

http://www.carnicom.com/morgobs4.htm
Sending webs to Carnicom is the equivalent of sending them nowhere.
He is the "BLACK HOLE" of spiderwebs, and you will never hear any more about them, 'ChemtrailsProject'.

Well, maybe in about 20 years he will enter a giant ball of wound-up spiderwebs into the Guiness Book of Records....wouldn't surprise me at all.
 

Danny55

Senior Member.
From "The Truth Denied" FB page if anyone is interested in calling in,

"[h=6]ATTENTION ALL MEMBERS! This Friday The Truth Denied Talk Radio will be interviewing Ms. Rosalind Peterson, for a LIVE 2 hour Special. Rosalind will be taking all of your calls after the first hour. Please share the link, SHOW LINK is in this article, set your time zone reminders and share . We are honored to have her time as our special guest![/h]"
 

firepilot

Senior Member.
From "The Truth Denied" FB page if anyone is interested in calling in,

"[h=6]ATTENTION ALL MEMBERS! This Friday The Truth Denied Talk Radio will be interviewing Ms. Rosalind Peterson, for a LIVE 2 hour Special. Rosalind will be taking all of your calls after the first hour. Please share the link, SHOW LINK is in this article, set your time zone reminders and share . We are honored to have her time as our special guest![/h]"

Now this could be quite fun
 

Danny55

Senior Member.
Here is another chance Firepilot

" [h=6]Karen Pangburn
[/h][h=6]I live in the Cincinnati, OH area. Looking for people to meet up and fight for this cause. Michael Murphy from "What in the World are They Spraying?" will be speaking locally here in April. For more information contact Karen at karenpangn@yahoo.com[/h]
"
From the Chemtrail Project FB page I'll try and find out the date and location.
 

PCWilliams

Senior Member.
I had plenty of dealings with Carnicom, since about 1999.

...

Jay, I have a lot of experience dealing with the government bureaucracy ... major kudos for your persistence. I liked your conclusion that Carnicom may be submitting samples to the EPA, void of any verifiable chain of custody, knowing this would result in the EPA not testing the sample ... giving Carnicom the "they are stonewalling the truth!" battle cry. :cool:
 

Danny55

Senior Member.
Latest from Chemtrail Project:
"Chemtrails Project


‎"Contrail Science Team" - Was just looking over your ridiculously long thread regarding Chemtrails Project on your website. Amazing how you say we are wasting time and then you spend countless hours trying to "disprove" what we are doing.

I always take note when I see people who aren't trying to create but instead only trying to destroy. Man was not made in that mold. To spend such precious huma...n energy on trying to deter fellow humans, it must be exhausting and I imagine not very rewarding.

Let me tell you guys the real problem with your "scientific forum" - you cannot possible consider anything beyond your physical 3D world. That is OK, that is how your were conditioned. You see, we are all conditioned at one point. Whether it is from our parents (who were conditioned by their parents), society, friends, or schools. Like I heard a great man in the metaphysical world say about a lecture at Harvard "I had to thin down the material so the Harvard students could grasp it". The conditioning was simply too strong with the Harvard crowd, the "belief blinders" simply too thick. They are taught to belief that they have "so much to lose" (material), but they dont realize this whole thing is "just a ride" (metaphysical).

You miss the "big picture", and this is where I extend my heart to you. You are taught, conditioned, to only look at what the face value can tell you, but you never think to look behind the mask. You never wonder, "is there a deeper message or root to this problem?" Look to your spirituality, look to your intuition. You are being conditioned not too.

Please, spend more time dissecting each of our posts. You have already given me great direction with the barium / strontium and no aluminum testing. And thank you Danny for finding alternative names to continue to "police" this board, like a good Orwellian robot.

Finally, Paul in Florida doesn't run this board, I do. So dont bash him. You dont know him, saying he is "peddling products" is absurd. So you believe that 3rd party lab testing is free? Did they teach you that in school too? Seems you might be aware that testing at a national accredited lab might actually cost something?

This was the first and last message I will post about the Contrail Science folks who spend there time "observing" and "looking for holes" on this board. And they wonder why I dont share info with them....
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Interesting feedback in the comments there:


Weird disconnect here. I certainly don't consider myself to be any of the the above.

I'd like to re-extend my open invitation to them to point out any errors on ContrailScience.com, so I can correct them.

Nobody ever does.
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Please, spend more time dissecting each of our posts. You have already given me great direction with the barium / strontium and no aluminum testing.

So, if we've only ever been helpful to you - actually constructive in a scientific way - then why ban us? Why not actually enter into discussion with people who are actually interested in the science?
 

firepilot

Senior Member.
I had just read that too. Note, that they can not point out at single thing that is wrong, but can just allege that we miss the big picture. Okay, since you are apparently reading this.

Tell us exactly any scientific detail that we have gotten incorrect?

Have we been incorrect in regards to aviation too?

Do you deny that Paul also sells Homeopathic Diet Drops and balance bracelets online too? Neither of those have any evidence to work

Why do you say (correctly I may add) that Aluminum is present in the air as dust, when all the other chemtrail groups say Aluminum can not be present? Are the people who started the chemtrail conspiracy (hoax) over this Aluminum claim, then incorrect?
 

JFDee

Senior Member.
Wow. That leaves me speechless and open-mouthed for an above-average moment.
block them as soon as they are spotted
That's disconnecting indeed. No more shaking of one's own belief.

Very un-scientific, isn't it?
 

Des O

New Member
Sorry they feel that way. Asking questions about testing methods, comparison criteria and inquiring to see lab results (evidence) was too hostile for them. I'm still waiting for my "government shill" check though.
 

firepilot

Senior Member.
And now someone posts proof from Weather Modification Incorporates webpage.

Hmmm a company that openly advertises their aircraft, what they do, and where they are? Not so secret huh? Well I am sure that their 5 smaller twin prop planes (5 Cessnas, 1 Beech) on winter contracts , apparently must do a great job then.
 

Des O

New Member
So, if we've only ever been helpful to you - actually constructive in a scientific way - then why ban us? Why not actually enter into discussion with people who are actually interested in the science?

Still don't know for sure if he is getting non-detects for aluminum, or is he just not testing for it? No way to know without seeing lab reports. Either way, every result he gives has been shown to be at a normal expected level that is completely safe to humans and the environment.

Even if they do find elevated levels of some metal, they still have not made the critical link between metals in soil and rain to "chemtrails".
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
It interesting that they don't test soil any more. They must have finally realized just how much aluminum there is in soil. However, they still have the following image/text:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...35115293.58252.249235051785008&type=3&theater



Chemtrails Project

This chart acts as a guide so you can compare it with your soil once tested.

Over 1600 = EXCESSIVE

Ohio is testing at 8800ppm

Colorado at 5000ppm

Washington at 5500ppm

It's nationwide!

The "excessive" reading there of 1600 ppm is 0.16%, but soil naturally has around 7% aluminum on average. Even their 8800ppm is only 0.88% aluminum.

I wonder where they got these numbers from. Perhaps they were thinking of "available" aluminum (Al3+), but that starts to be toxic at around 0.25ppm.

The real question is why they have such low reading in their soil. I suspect they are talking soil samples from topsoil in their gardens, which generally has a high organic, and low mineral content, due to frequent applications of fertilizer and potting soil, and low tilling.
 
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firepilot

Senior Member.
Wow. That leaves me speechless and open-mouthed for an above-average moment.
That's disconnecting indeed. No more shaking of one's own belief.

Very un-scientific, isn't it?

And yet in their world, we here are the closed minded ones, not them.

And again for whomever is updating the Chemtrails Project, why not send them a link to see how apparently bad we are. Or lets have a chemtrails/contrails debate. Bet you would not go anywhere near that one, because you know have no real evidence at all
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
And yet in their world, we here are the closed minded ones, not them.

And again for whomever is updating the Chemtrails Project, why not send them a link to see how apparently bad we are. Or lets have a chemtrails/contrails debate. Bet you would not go anywhere near that one, because you know have no real evidence at all

Indeed, it seems as if at first there is some symmetry - they think we are closed minded, we think they are closed minded, so is progress possible?

However, it's not symmetrical at all.

We want to discuss the science with them.They do not want to discuss the science with us.
 

Des O

New Member
This Chemtrails Project guy seems to ignore anything that contradicts his ideas. Even someone that believes in chemtrails points out this photo of the evergreen tanker is just for low altitude spraying.

I used to think he was a bit more scientific, but he is just using pseudo-science to further his own agenda.

[h=6]Chemtrails Project
[/h][h=6]Demo of spray capabilities - Evergreen[/h][Broken External Image]:[URL]http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s320x320/394025_306796719362174_249235051785008_889886_419943328_n.jpg[/URL]


Share · January 8 at 7:34pm ·


 
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firepilot

Senior Member.
Yeah, interesting how those in that section were trying to lean away from it being anything to do with chemtrails, and the guy running it is trying to convince them that it is. Some of them are at least trying to think about it and not be spoon fed, even if they are chemtrail believers.
 

scombrid

Senior Member.
I think he collects them like some people collect fingernail clippings.

Hah. Well I might be apt to collect and test the odd hair and fingernail clipping and have them tested if I lived down stream (down ground water stream that is with our karst system) of our local Superfund site and I was drinking Well Water. But I wouldn't be looking to the sky for contaminants. But that isn't the same as those folks...


He really enjoys playing the role of 'mad scientist' and actually has people over at his "Institute" where he digs in their flesh and extracts 'Morgellons" fibers as he did some years ago to himself:
Sending webs to Carnicom is the equivalent of sending them nowhere.
He is the "BLACK HOLE" of spiderwebs, and you will never hear any more about them, 'ChemtrailsProject'.

Well, maybe in about 20 years he will enter a giant ball of wound-up spiderwebs into the Guiness Book of Records....wouldn't surprise me at all.[/QUOTE]
 

scombrid

Senior Member.
I was a bit tongue in cheek with my comment but that wasn't all clear. Yours is certainly fair and appropriate warning.
 

PCWilliams

Senior Member.
I've been trying to engage some chemtrailers over on facebook (http://tinyurl.com/7bnq7fr). I'm treading ever-so-lightly with my questions because they seem very eager to ban me. It really is amazing how just asking for the slightest explanation from them sets them off into orbit. :confused:
 
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