Discussions with chemtrailers on facebook

Des O

New Member
I have been spending the last few days trying to steer some chemtrailer believers on Facebook into the scientific approach. The way I see it, the sooner these guys send up a plane or other sampling device into a "chemtrail" the sooner this whole thing gets killed. Of course as soon as I start using scientific terms, they are immediately suspicious and try and attack my character, my job, anything but address the actual science.


1.Against Chem 1.jpg 2.Against Chem 2.jpg

3. Against Chem 3.jpg 4.Against Chem 4.jpg
 

Des O

New Member
I am currently discussing rain water sampling and reporting methodology with the Chemtrails Project owner on Facebook. This will be interesting.

The Chemtrails Project encourages people to give them $50. In return they give you bottles to sample rain water. They then post these results (sans lab reports) on a map. The main issue with them is that they fail to state whether the rain water results include particulates or are just dissolved metals. Dissolved metals results require the sampler to filter the sample before sending it to the lab. If the sample is not filtered, the metals concentration such as aluminum can increase x100.

The fallacy is that they then compare these unfiltered results (total metals = dissolved + particulate_ to legitimate scientific findings of only dissolved metals in rainwater.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Desmond,

Does the chemtrails project display any of their lab reports at all?
Do they keep a running average of their results?
What do they say that they consider as a normal range in rainwater for Al, Ba, and Sr?
What do they base the above criterion on?

I think they are getting their advice from Francis Mangels, who has been made aware of this:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/135-Chemical-Composition-of-rain-and-snow

I tried very hard to get Mangels and his friends to show their data, they refused, very similar to what has been ongoing for a decade:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/26...hemtrails-Information-Freedom-Aagreement-quot

I found that Mangels probably lives in an alternate reality:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/154-The-Claims-of-Francis-Mangels-a-Factual-Examination



Thanks, Jay
 
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Des O

New Member
Jay,

they definitely do not display lab results, nor do they have any tables of the data to derive averages. They are very disorganized and just display any results they get. In fact they have a number of extremely low and non-detect results displayed as well (self-refuting hoaxes are the best!). See some of the results here. You have to click on the balloon on the google map to see them. http://www.chemtrailsproject.com/

They have no clear sampling methodology. Like I said before, with rain water, filtering the water is required when analyzing for dissolved metals. Most studies regarding rain water and metals will do this. If the rain water is not filtered, then you are analyzing particulates (dirt which has traces of barium, aluminum, strontium) picked up from the rain as well as dissolved metals. Once everything is atomized there is no way to tell which state (dissolved or solid) it came from.

They also have no clear criterion in which to compare the results to. I think they just hope that the existence of metals in water is enough to scare people, regardless if it is at perfectly safe and normal levels.

BTW, no response yet regarding my sampling methodology questions.
 

firepilot

Senior Member.
I posted earlier, that the guy who has that Chemtrails Project of water sampling, also sells homeopathic diet drops, and balance bracelets.
 

Des O

New Member
Create a health panic and sell the "cure". Sleazy business if you ask me.

I've also seen people selling Chemtrail busters (copper tubes with quartz epoxied into a bucket) as well. They flock to youtube chemtrail videos and hock their wares. Or you could just use some vinegar to get rid of them. LOL!
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I think health concerns and hypochondria are a significant factor in many conspiracy theories. Personally I think people want to have something to blame their various symptoms on, but they are largely symptoms of a somewhat somatic nature - over-fixating on the normal aches and pains of life, particularly of getting older. You see this with Morgellons, Chronic Lyme, Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Electromagnetic Sensitivities,etc. And now with Chemtrails.

Unfortunately it's almost impossible to debunk for an individual. How can you tell someone that their symptoms are not really that bad, and it's just the way they are thinking about them? They respond with anger.

Then thing like crystals, homeopathy, and suchlike will "work" as its the placebo effect working on somatic symptoms.
 

Des O

New Member
When it comes to personal health and homeopathic cures, whatever makes you feel better is fine by me. When I'm sick I like to eat a specific brand of mushroom soup (other brands will not do!), I feel better when I eat it. Did it actually make me better, no, but that is what the mind can do.

Its the fear mongering and spreading of lies that disturbs me about these people. "You are sick because of those planes! Now buy my heavy metal detox cures"
Anyone that is smart enough to make money from "Chemtrails" should also be smart enough to know they don't really exist. That in turn makes them morally suspect.

What I don't get is why are people suddenly looking at planes as the culprit to all their ailments. All you have to do is look cross-town at the coal powered generating station, oil refinery, chemical plant to find a more likely reason. Maybe it is because that is where they get their paycheck and the airline industry is foreign enough to them that it must be the culprit.

The reason I got into environmental science is that growing up, I did get sprayed my aerosols. They didn't come from planes, but from a local oil refinery I lived close to. We would sometimes get incredible amounts of dust settling on our property. Looking back, I wish I could have sampled the air. They now have much stricter air emission regulations and the air isn't as bad. The point is, people should stop looking up and start looking around.
 

Des O

New Member
And I see my cat Marley is my avatar now. LOL. Her penetrating gaze will cut through all bunk!
 

Danny55

Senior Member.
Desmond,
the Chemtrails Project encourages people to take their sample as soon as any rain starts. I had a FB conversation with the creator of the page, Paul Johnston I think, some time ago asking about the methods, and he stated that he wanted the samples at the beginning as there is usually a "chem dump" then. When asked about the atmospheric dust which would be collected at the beginning of any rainfall, he just restated that they "dump" at the beginning.

After some tooing and froing, I was then banned, although he did mention that I was a really nice guy, just uninformed.

"He was a nice guy, but this site is for testing and discussion, not debate or debunking. There are other forums specifically for that. This page is for people who already know to discuss details, testing, theories, etc"


Using another ID, i did find out that the 50 bucks includes the testing fee.
 

Des O

New Member
Talking to the lab directly will probably be a dead end. Just from my deallings with labs, they tend to take client privacy very seriously.

I think this Chemtrails Project guy makes his money selling the "cure", rather than from the testing.
 

Des O

New Member
Here the Chemtrails Project guy spouts of a bunch of high sounding numbers, but fails to mention if the samples are for soil or water. Those look like soil results to me. Labs will display water results in ug/L or ppb. Of course I asked what the sample matrix was.
chmetrails.jpg
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
They could be using the surface water method suggested here, where they dip the container into the soil on the bottom:
http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/html/watertesting.html

Mauro Oliveira said:
Surface water tests have the highest numbers and will really freak you out when you get the results.

If you are testing a pond, then the only thing different is how you collect the sample. The very bottom of the pond is where the elements stack up. Turn your jar upside down and get the mouth to the bottom of the pond or still water....the older the pond the higher the readings. Turn the jar over and collect both the water and a LITTLE of the bottom sediment.

You will need to put the lid on underwater before you lift the jar off the bottom and out of the water....thats it!

Bottom line, if they don't document the testing procedure and show the actual lab analysis, the info is worthless.
 

Danny55

Senior Member.
Results fresh in on Chemtrails Project
[h=6]Chemtrails Project
[/h][h=6]Rainwater Results in from Spokane, WA:

Strontium: 24 ug/l
Barium: 23 ug/l
Aluminum: ND

**More of the same with these results; the past 2 months have all been heavy strontium with ND for aluminum. It has us evaluating the agenda, as our consultants have told us that Strontium is a much better "antenna", however much more expensive than Aluminum. But then again, it's all from OUR tax money anyway so what do the globalist care?[/h]Also
  • [h=6]Joan Renee Smith
    [/h][h=6]I just received my test results; on aluminum 6400, barium149, strontium30.8,titan ium177, does anybody know what is toxic amount ?[/h]14 hours ago · And how Joan got her sample

    Joan Renee Smith Hi John, The sample comes from a scraping of a bar top that I had made in early summer. We had some heavy rains between sept. 15 to sept 22, when the rain would dry it would leave this white residue all over it, You can actually see pudd...les of the stuff as it dried. I did a scraping of it, I have pics, and I found a lab in Pa that did a test on the sample, ALS Enviromental. They have it as mg/kg. If anybody has dry samples, their service ids very reasonable, $14per test- 56 for all for tests. Please let me know what the results mean. They have flags on the Aluminum and titanium. Thanks, JoanSee more
    2 hours ago via

 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
It seems very difficult for people to understand why these are normal and expected results. It think that's going to be a pretty fundamental problem in communicating the truth here. We've still got stuff on the web were people test dust instead of air, or sludge instead of water. They simply don't understand the basic science.

I'm not really saying that they should understand. If someone grew up with no science or math education, then this is an expected result. The question here is: is there any way we can effectively communicate what's going on to someone with this very low level of understanding?
 

firepilot

Senior Member.
It seems very difficult for people to understand why these are normal and expected results. It think that's going to be a pretty fundamental problem in communicating the truth here. We've still got stuff on the web were people test dust instead of air, or sludge instead of water. They simply don't understand the basic science.

I'm not really saying that they should understand. If someone grew up with no science or math education, then this is an expected result. The question here is: is there any way we can effectively communicate what's going on to someone with this very low level of understanding?

Well these people believe, and are being led to believe, that these are tests for pure forms of these elements, and that elemental Strontium, or Aluminum, etc are being found. They read that these elements should not be found pure in nature, which is correct. But then they think that these tests that report the amounts of by element, are reporting the amount of the pure form of it, which is not correct.

Strontium is not found in nature as pure strontium, but in Celestite. But these tests by element, are not going to give an amount in terms of Strontium Sulfate, or Strontium Carbonate, but just basically how of the sample is made of atoms of strontium, if it was all disassembled into atoms.

This may be something to put in a debunking video, since I think most if not all chemtrailers assume these tests are reporting back that pure forms of elements are found, when that is not how Atomic Absorption and other tests work.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I really don't think that they even understand what a non-elemental form of aluminum is. At least most of them don't.

I suspect that if you tell them that oxygen is a common element in the Earth's crust, they will assume you mean the air in all the caves.

It's quite a communication challenge. In order to explain to someone that they are wrong, you've first got to get them to understand several things that they have zero interest in.
 

scombrid

Senior Member.
Hi John, The sample comes from a scraping of a bar top that I had made in early summer. We had some heavy rains between sept. 15 to sept 22, when the rain would dry it would leave this white residue all over it, You can actually see pudd...les of the stuff as it dried. I did a scraping of it,

She scraped up dust. My driveway is crushed fossil coral. If I sampled as she did I'd get lots of strontium.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Most of them really don't care to know the details.
They saw all they needed to know on a DVD and on youtube.

In a phone conversation I had with Francis Mangels, I asked him why haven't they done testing to actually determine the COMPOUNDS they were finding in the water. He told me he didn't think that was even possible.

Well, it is possible.

So much for a PhD. he doesn't even really want to know.
 

Danny55

Senior Member.
From FB
[h=6]Chemtrails Project
[/h][h=6]New Rainwater Results - from St. George, Utah:

Aluminum = ND
Barium = 7 ug/l
Strontium = 21 ug/l

*Notes: Once again we find a sample with no aluminum but strontium is present. Out of the last 5-6 samples we have tested the case has been the same, heavy strontium (sometimes over 700 ug/l). Keep this heavy metal name on your mind: Strontium.....a pattern is building here.[/h]Share · 10 January at 23:48 ·
  • 9 people like this.

  • 1 share1 share



    • Steve Noack is this a natural occurence level? And also what are the health risks of inhalation11 January at 00:04





    • Chemtrails Project according to the retired USDA scientist we work with, when it comes to rainwater (not groundwater) then there should be no detection. this risks of inhalation range, and of course are present. We all need heavy metal detoxing, a few times a year. It wont be the "catch-all" solution, but it helps a lot. Take a look at the tab on the left "heavy metals detox" - it's natural and free11 January at 00:13 · 3




    • Mark as spam

      Marcel Marceau What DOES rainwater contain normally?11 January at 19:25

      Wonder who the retired USDA scientist is....?
      And they still haven't answered the last question.



 
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Des O

New Member
It is amazing how easily the public can be mislead with numbers. When it comes to environmental sampling and analysis, their is a reason you need a college or university degree to be qualified. It is very easy to interprate things the wrong way. You have to have a knowledge of how the samples are analysed in order to make the right connections. A video or page on this would be helpful.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
A video or page on this would be helpful.
I hope that is a good reason for you to take it on, Desmond!

We have stumbled through learning as we went along, and learned much more than the chemmies, but please, spend some time and thought to develop something more complete.

Here are some questions:

What are atmospheric aerosols? (define)

Where do these aerosols come from? How do aerosols get into the air?

What effects do these aerosols have in the air?

What happens to the aerosols over time?

How do these aerosols get into rain/snow?

What is known about rain/snow chemistry in the past compared to the present?

What are the normal levels of elements in the atmosphere?

What is being claimed to be found in rain/snow?

What are the reasons why these claims are false?

What other questions could be answered regarding air and water samples?
========================
Could you develop some straightforward plain english yet authoritative answers with links supporting each answer?
Thanks in advance.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
A Discovery Channel producer told me that science should be kept at a level an 8 year-old could understand, or you lose your audience. Probably something to keep in mind when considering the above.
 

Danny55

Senior Member.
Jay, here is a quote from Chemtrails Project facebook group.

"


Oliver Swain Could you make the PDFs viewable? 29 minutes ago




Chemtrails ProjectOliver Swain, that would be a challenge! They are all available by request though, they are for sharing20 minutes ago "

Unfortunately, both my ID's are barred from this group so I cannot get them.
 
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Bunkerbuster

(AKA iondetox)
We are talking about open aluminum mick or it you can eat all silica you want and it will not show up in hair folicle test.. so obviously there is a communication problem, but it's on your end. It's available aluminum which is very rare in nature. I've told you this many many times and you still won't address the fact that dirt is considered closed and non available to humans. so we have open aluminum coming from somewhere being spread through out our population and plants.. the only way it could be spread that evenly is via air. This is no longer a hypothesis, but theory my friend. Anyone with a small measure of intelligence can figure this out it's not that hard. Go take another drink of fluoride and maybe that will help.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I'm not familiar with the term "open aluminum" - do you just mean metallic aluminum, like soda cans are made of?

I think you might be confusing it with "available aluminum", which is the Al3+, which is not something you could spray from a plane, as it only exists in acidic conditions.

Indeed, the best way to get more Al3+ in the ground would be to spray acid. Because the aluminum itself is already there. Soil is 7% aluminum, on average.
 

firepilot

Senior Member.
We are talking about open aluminum mick or it you can eat all silica you want and it will not show up in hair folicle test.. so obviously there is a communication problem, but it's on your end. It's available aluminum which is very rare in nature. I've told you this many many times and you still won't address the fact that dirt is considered closed and non available to humans. so we have open aluminum coming from somewhere being spread through out our population and plants.. the only way it could be spread that evenly is via air. This is no longer a hypothesis, but theory my friend. Anyone with a small measure of intelligence can figure this out it's not that hard. Go take another drink of fluoride and maybe that will help.

So are you saying, that we are taking aluminum out of the ground, putting it in airplanes, just to put in back on the ground, in the most inefficient and expensive way possible?

Or are you saying that we are increasing the amount of aluminum on the earth?
 

Bunkerbuster

(AKA iondetox)
So are you saying, that we are taking aluminum out of the ground, putting it in airplanes, just to put in back on the ground, in the most inefficient and expensive way possible?

Or are you saying that we are increasing the amount of aluminum on the earth?

Ok I'll try to make this as simple as I can. Naturally occurring aluminum is clay or silica and it make up the majority of our earths crust. However this type of molecule cannot be absorbed by plants or animals, and humans. Therefore aluminum is not found naturally in a pure state so this must be a compound. Compounds of aluminum are made for various reasons one is to put into chemtrails and it's not dirt my friend it I'd not be concerned. It's a form of aluminum that is open or available to be absorbed by you and you friends.. if you have any.

There we are not talking about a considerably to put more dirt on the earth but to make people into dirt..and soon you will see. Very soon lung tumors will be like runny noses and sniffles and when you bury a loved on due to this bombardment of heavy metals.. just think of this conversation and how funny you thought it was to act like you do. Soon many will be crying.
 

firepilot

Senior Member.
There is no such thing as "open aluminum"

Show us evidence of these non-natural aluminum compounds found. Its the chemtrailers who were claiming that it was just free Aluminum found, and that was there supposed proof, since they had claimed (correctly) that pure aluminum is not found in nature, and that test results showing Al ppm were proof.
 

Bunkerbuster

(AKA iondetox)
I've already posted that evidence, go look for yourself.. I'm not here to spoon feed you like a small child. I'm here as an adult to show you stuff and you go do a little work. That's my role as a chemtrailologist. Does you college professor do your homework for you? That's assuming that you have a college education.. ok.. Did you high school teacher do your homework for you.. no.. So to just sit on that back side and eat twinkies all day and ask someone to get you a beer may work in your house but not mine. I expect adults to act like adults and when a horrific public health hazard like this comes up I expect for people to drop their game controller and twinkie or whatever they are tugging at and get to work.

Aluminum levels are rising, government doc show that all over this is serious.. you guy act like it's all going to be ok when you run out of food and they blame drought, when it was the chemtrails.. I know it's happening over your head and to your children or domestic partner, so do something darn it.. :cool:
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Why can't you just link to evidence of the things that you claim? Surely that would have taken far less time than writing your last post.
 

Des O

New Member
According to Chemtrails project, aluminum now isn't the problem, it is now strontium. They are getting non-detect results for aluminum and minor (25 ug/l) for strontium. They are now using the skeptics argument that aluminum is in dust, dust is in rain, so why does this rain have a non-detect for for aluminum? They conclude that this proves the strontium is from man made sources. This is an interesting twist and will look at it a bit more. I suspect these samples were filtered and since strontium is much more reactive in water than aluminum, it will have a higher dissolved concentration than aluminum. Need to research this though. Here are the details below:


[h=6]Chemtrails Project
[/h][h=6]Im abuzz this AM, as I feel we have a piece of serious hard “proof” there is heavy metals being put into our atmosphere by man. See this quick summary:

• Aluminum is the most abundant metal in soil. So all rainwater results that show the various metals, and always including aluminum, can always be debunked as “soil in the air” contamination

• The last 2 months we have shown many regions testing high in strontium / barium with NO aluminum.

o According to our biologist, and commonsense when you think about it, that means that it cannot be “soil in the air” for these samples as it would have to also show aluminum (as it is the most abundant in soil; way more so than barium and strontium)

o I can also confirm for all of these regions there is NO coal fired plant near by
[/h]Share · 2 hours ago ·
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
It would be interesting to see the actual lab results. But they are also somewhat meaningless unless they detail the collection methods and apparatus.
 
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