Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
When you find yourself before a scary and unknown situation, and when you're deeply worried, you start looking for signs and patterns, which at another time could seem far-fetched, but right then they seem vividly real and impossible to dismiss as coincidence.

Not quite the same thing, but I've had three bouts of illness that closely followed eating scallops. I've always been very reluctant to eat scallops since then, as three times SEEMS too much for my lizard brain to pass off as coincidence.

However I have had scallops several times recently (not by choice, on fixed menus), and I was fine. Yet I still can't shake the suspicion.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Not quite the same thing
plus Libertarian had a N.D. 'egging' him on. To be licensed NDs do need college, testing and need to continue their education. Although I must say I find it shocking beyond belief that even a Neuropathic Doctor would ever ever recommend not getting vaccinated!
 

Jason

Senior Member
plus Libertarian had a N.D. 'egging' him on. To be licensed NDs do need college, testing and need to continue their education. Although I must say I find it shocking beyond belief that even a Neuropathic Doctor would ever ever recommend not getting vaccinated!
I honestly don't know of any Dr in the US that would tell a patient or guardian of a patient they shouldn't take a vaccine. I think it's unethical for a Dr to actually deny a patient a vaccine.
 

Bill

Senior Member.
plus Libertarian had a N.D. 'egging' him on. To be licensed NDs do need college, testing and need to continue their education. Although I must say I find it shocking beyond belief that even a Neuropathic Doctor would ever ever recommend not getting vaccinated!
I thought Libertarian was relying on the advice of a Naturopath. The licensing and education requirements for Naturopaths are not as rigorous as they are for MDs and depending on the philosophy the practitioner subscribes to they would advise against any form of vaccination.

From Wikipedia
Anti-vaccine beliefs
Many forms of alternative medicine, including naturopathy, homeopathy, and chiropractic are based on beliefs opposed to vaccination and have practitioners who voice their opposition. The reasons for this opposition are based, in part, on the early views which shaped the foundation of each profession.[67] A survey of a cross section of students of a major complementary and alternative medicine college in Canada reported that students in the later years of the program opposed vaccination more strongly than newer students.[68]

A University of Washington study investigated insurance claim histories for alternative medicine use in relation to the receipt of vaccinations against preventable illnesses, grouped into children aged 1–2 years and 1–17 years. Both groups were significantly less likely to receive a number of their vaccinations if they visited a naturopath. The study found a significant association between visits to naturopaths with a reduced receipt of pediatric vaccinations and with increased infection by vaccine-preventable diseases.[28]
Content from External Source
Note the last sentence in that excerpt.

The study can be found here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2924961/
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
The licensing and education requirements for Naturopaths are not as rigorous as they are for MDs
oops I meant naturopath. I still find it shocking that anyone with even minimal medical education would not prescribe vaccines.
But what I was going for was, Lib and his wife may have been under the impression they were getting good medical advice because this guy is a licensed 'Doctor'.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
A tiny tad bit off topic, but a bright spot (of sorts):

http://richarddawkins.net/2014/06/anti-vaxxer-and-flat-earther-fired-from-the-view/
Content from External Source
I'm not sure they were fired. but yea good riddance to Mccarthy, IF she actually goes! not that I watch the View but still.
Sources told CNN that producers and people close to Shepherd have been aware for months that she was ready to leave "The View." The sources added that Shepherd opted to keep the news quiet, not wanting to overshadow or disrupt Barbara Walters' departure in May.
Content from External Source
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/27/showbiz/tv/the-view-sherri-shepherd-jenny-mccarthy/index.html
 

Bill

Senior Member.
I'm not sure they were fired. but yea good riddance to Mccarthy, IF she actually goes! not that I watch the View but still.
Sources told CNN that producers and people close to Shepherd have been aware for months that she was ready to leave "The View." The sources added that Shepherd opted to keep the news quiet, not wanting to overshadow or disrupt Barbara Walters' departure in May.
Content from External Source
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/27/showbiz/tv/the-view-sherri-shepherd-jenny-mccarthy/index.html
I've tried watching the view - It just seems like a group of poorly informed people discussing things they know very little about.
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
A new systematic review has found that while some childhood vaccines are associated with serious adverse effects, these events are extremely rare and, surprise surprise, do not include autism, food allergies or cancer. The study has been published in Pediatrics.

Despite the achievements of vaccines over the last century and the overwhelming amount of evidence for their safety, many remain hesitant and there is a growing trend of parental vaccine refusal. Unfortunately, this has led to a resurgence of vaccine preventable diseases such as measles and whooping cough in certain countries
Content from External Source
Read more at http://www.iflscience.com/health-an...ccines-are-extremely-rare#RdjiHfJKyh3cMlwW.99
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
The large increase in IFLS posts about vaccinations is starting to lead me to believe she might be getting paid to share it.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
It's always been one of her themes, and she often gets people all up in arms any time she did post about it, so it's not surprising that she would push it now that there's a bit of blowback to anti-vaccination in the form of outbreaks. Watch her hate-mail videos.
She could just be rubbing it in, I would.
Who would be paying her?
 

Svartbjørn

Senior Member.

Bill

Senior Member.
Came across this in the Post today.. I wasnt EXACTLY sure where to put it because its mostly about Rosie coming back to the view and being a truther, but at the same time it talks about McCarthy's antivaccine stuff.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-dangers-of-vaccine-deniers-and-911-truthers/
Content from External Source
Its worth the read either way (if it needs to go somewhere else @Mick West , feel free to move it.. I wasnt sure where to post it)
The comments section of that article is fun.
 

KAT

Active Member
The comments section of that article is fun.

Couple of days ago I joined a "health" site that is anti-vacc among other things. Five posts and they were already accusing me of being a Big Pharma shill. One single one agreed with me, on the grounds that what i said was from about 1960, before Big Pharma got greedy. Collected more than 150 downvotes. YAY!!!!
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
Couple of days ago I joined a "health" site that is anti-vacc among other things. Five posts and they were already accusing me of being a Big Pharma shill. One single one agreed with me, on the grounds that what i said was from about 1960, before Big Pharma got greedy. Collected more than 150 downvotes. YAY!!!!

Are there any specific claims on their web site about vaccines that might not be addressed here?
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
I don't know much about the anti-vax movement, but somebody posted this to me. It's a scathing indictment of the polio vaccine.

http://www.naturalnews.com/041345_cdc_polio_vaccine_sv40.html

"Many authorities now admit much, possibly most, of the world's cancers came from the Salk and Sabin polio vaccines, and hepatitis B vaccines, produced in monkeys and chimps," adds RealFarmacy.com. "It is said (that) mesothelioma is a result of asbestos exposure, but research reveals that 50 percent of the current mesotheliomas being treated no longer occur due to asbestos but rather the SV40 virus contained in polio vaccination."
Content from External Source
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
I don't know much about the anti-vax movement, but somebody posted this to me. It's a scathing indictment of the polio vaccine.

http://www.naturalnews.com/041345_cdc_polio_vaccine_sv40.html

"Many authorities now admit much, possibly most, of the world's cancers came from the Salk and Sabin polio vaccines, and hepatitis B vaccines, produced in monkeys and chimps," adds RealFarmacy.com. "It is said (that) mesothelioma is a result of asbestos exposure, but research reveals that 50 percent of the current mesotheliomas being treated no longer occur due to asbestos but rather the SV40 virus contained in polio vaccination."
Content from External Source

That is one of the claims I addressed earlier in the thread. Although SV40 has been found to induce cancers in animal models both in vivo and in vitro, a link between human cancers and SV40 has yet to be established and the CDC has not been able to attribute any increase in cancer incidence rates to the contaminated batches of polio vaccine.
 

Leifer

Senior Member.
Recent Measles outbreak is linked or spread to unvaccinated people/kids. 1/15/2015

A “significant number” of those who became infected from the Disneyland outbreak were not vaccinated, Dr. James Watt, head of the California Department of Health’s division of communicable disease control, told the Times. It’s incredibly rare for someone who has been vaccinated against measles to become infected. According to Dr. George Rutherford, head of the Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at the UCSF School of Medicine, the vaccine is 95 percent effective.
http://www.newsweek.com/measles-outbreak-started-disneyland-spreads-four-states-299469
Content from External Source
One important thing for the measles Vac is...not so much for the people in a country that is heavily vaccinated, but the potential of the disease to travel to other countries, where they may not be vaccinated.
 

Katrina

New Member
Just found this site and just now signed up and joining this conversation; thank you all for contributing to the discussion, as I've been researching vaccines for some time now and I feel like I've been in a gray area for years. Last year I found what I thought was a reasonably well-researched explanation of vaccine ingredients, but cross-referencing some of the information presented here I'm not so sure that some of this isn't grossly exaggerated:

http://vaxtruth.org/2011/08/vaccine-ingredients/

This is an anti-vaccine site; the author has put together a "comprehensive guide" of vaccine ingredients; she uses the CDC list of ingredients and then addresses the following ingredients: Aluminum, Amino Acids and Proteins, Formaldehyde, Benzethonium Chloride, Glutaraldehyde, MRC-5, DNA, MRC-5 Cellular Protein, Human Serum Albumin, Thimerosal, Yeast Extract/MSG, Egg Protein, Cetyltrimethylammonium Bromide, and 2-Phenoxyethanol.

Some of these ingredients have been addressed here already, and most of them don't catch my attention as being much of a concern, even after reading her descriptions of them. Since reading this thread over the last three days I've mostly settled my concerns re: formaldehyde, thimerosal and aluminum. In fact, aluminum was one of my biggest concerns and now I can see that she's misconstrued the limit of aluminum used in parenteral therapy. Also I've found that heavy metals can be removed from the body in various ways and so the bioaccumulation is very likely reversible.

Finally to the point of my post, my last remaining big concern is the "Amino Acids and proteins" section.


Amino Acids and Proteins (Albumin is also a type of protein):
What are amino acids? Put simply, amino acids are the building blocks of proteins in our bodies and they make up over 3/4 of the human body. There are 20 amino acids found naturally in the body and 8 that are considered “essential” for humans because our bodies cannot create them naturally, and therefore must be taken into our bodies by diet. (This becomes a *great* selling point for certain diets or food products).

So injecting amino acids into the body by way of vaccination is good, yes? Wrong.

  • Vaccines are called antigens — “A toxin or other foreign substance that induces an immune response in the body, especially the production of antibodies.” Antigens are made from foreign proteins. These foreign proteins are produced from animals (like cows, monkey’s and chickens) and also humans (human cells from aborted fetuses.)
  • Foreign proteins (in order to be beneficial to the body) need to first be digested in the GI tract. Protein is broken down into amino acids during the digestion process.
“When we eat protein it is broken down into its constituent amino acids…if a foreign animal protein makes it into our bloodstream without having being broken down this can set up an autoimmune type response…By injecting things never meant to be in the body we are not only bypassing body defenses but wrongly activating other defenses.” — Dr. Robyn Crosford

So what’s the outcome if you inject amino acids and/or foreign animal and human protein into the body instead of first digesting the proteins to make amino acids naturally?
  • Auto-immune disorders like Addison’s disease, celiac disease – sprue (gluten-sensitive enteropathy), dermatomyositis,Graves disease, Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, multiple sclerosis, myasthenia gravis, pernicious anemia, reactive arthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, Sjogren syndrome, systemic lupus erythematosus, type I diabetes etc.
  • Food allergies or food sensitivities associated with eggs, gluten, peanuts, milk, etc.
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And my concern is primarily in relation to arguably the most controversial vaccine:

MMR (MMR-II) ingredients: Amino Acid, Bovine Albumin or Serum, Chick Embryo Fibroblasts, Human Serum Albumin, Gelatin, Glutamate, Neomycin, Phosphate Buffers, Sorbitol, Sucrose, Vitamins.
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I'd also love to read anything you might feel like sharing re: any of the other ingredients addressed on that post, I'd love nothing more than to have every single anti-vax concern debunked... and be off the fence about this subject.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
There is another good place for vaccine information, is this group on FB, https://www.facebook.com/groups/VaccineSF. It is fact based group. There are folks there that will know or will be willing to look for information to help you.

One thing to consider is that vaccines have been given to millions of folks (and animals) and adverse reactions are very rare.
 

Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
Finally to the point of my post, my last remaining big concern is the "Amino Acids and proteins" section.


Amino Acids and Proteins (Albumin is also a type of protein):

“When we eat protein it is broken down into its constituent amino acids…if a foreign animal protein makes it into our bloodstream without having being broken down this can set up an autoimmune type response…By injecting things never meant to be in the body we are not only bypassing body defenses but wrongly activating other defenses.” — Dr. Robyn Crosford

So what’s the outcome if you inject amino acids and/or foreign animal and human protein into the body instead of first digesting the proteins to make amino acids naturally?
  • Auto-immune disorders like Addison’s disease, celiac disease – sprue (gluten-sensitive enteropathy), dermatomyositis,Graves disease, Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, multiple sclerosis, myasthenia gravis, pernicious anemia, reactive arthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, Sjogren syndrome, systemic lupus erythematosus, type I diabetes etc.
  • Food allergies or food sensitivities associated with eggs, gluten, peanuts, milk, etc.
Content from External Source

The problem is that the article claims injecting proteins into someone will give them an auto immune disorder. As evidence they present an edited quote by a Dr. Robyn Crosford. Unfortunately that quote only appears on a few anti vax websites. Without a link to the original study it's hard to determine the context or validity.

It's a claim without evidence. It can be dismissed.
 

Katrina

New Member
There is another good place for vaccine information, is this group on FB, https://www.facebook.com/groups/VaccineSF. It is fact based group.

Thanks, Cairenn, that facebook page does seem very helpful.


The problem is that the article claims injecting proteins into someone will give them an auto immune disorder. As evidence they present an edited quote by a Dr. Robyn Crosford. Unfortunately that quote only appears on a few anti vax websites. Without a link to the original study it's hard to determine the context or validity.

It's a claim without evidence. It can be dismissed.

Thank you. I can not find much information on Robyn Crosford at all, so easy enough to dismiss now. This site has been like a booster shot for my critical thinking skills! Also very cool how user friendly it is to copy, format and post in here.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
I can not find much information on Robyn Crosford at all, so easy enough to dismiss now
There seems to be a practicing physician in Australia by that name. I think if you are concerned about it, ask your doctor.

There might be some Metabunk readers who understand the vaccination manufacturing process, to answer you more fully, who will eventually read your post. Me, i would call a few doctor's offices and say I'm writing an article, see if a few doctors can explain it to me.

They are starting to use animal 'cells' (and some organ transplants) in people. But not sure exactly what 'cells' mean.




And my concern is primarily in relation to arguably the most controversial vaccine:

MMR (MMR-II) ingredients: Amino Acid, Bovine Albumin or Serum, Chick Embryo Fibroblasts, Human Serum Albumin, Gelatin, Glutamate, Neomycin, Phosphate Buffers, Sorbitol, Sucrose, Vitamins.
Content from External Source
I'd also love to read anything you might feel like sharing re: any of the other ingredients addressed on that post, I'd love nothing more than to have every single anti-vax concern debunked... and be off the fence about this subject.

i dont see anywhere that lists your ingredients for MMR except a 'families for health freedom' doc. Can you provide the reference links with external sources, esp. for a topic such as this. It could be an old cached version i guess.



the current CDC -United States- list says (note: they dont list MMR and MMRii seperately:

MMR (MMR-II) Medium 199, Minimum Essential Medium, phosphate, recombinant human albumin, neomycin, sorbitol, hydrolyzed gelatin, chick embryo cell culture, WI-38 human diploid lung fibroblasts December, 2010

MMRV (ProQuad) sucrose, hydrolyzed gelatin, sorbitol, monosodium L-glutamate, sodium phosphate dibasic, human albumin, sodium bicarbonate, potassium phosphate monobasic, potassium chloride, potassium phosphate dibasic, neomycin, bovine calf serum, chick embryo cell culture, WI-38 human diploid lung fibroblasts, MRC-5 cells August, 2011 http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf
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Merck's current June 2014 list says, (the only one used currently in the United States, i dont know what other countries use):
What are the ingredients of M-M-R II?
Active Ingredients: weakened forms of the measles, mumps, and rubella viruses.

Inactive Ingredients: sorbitol, sodium phosphate, potassium phosphate, sucrose, sodium chloride, hydrolyzed gelatin, recombinant human albumin, fetal bovine serum, other buffer and media ingredients, neomycin. http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_ppi.pdf
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As Merck'sM-M-RTMII (MMRII), a human serum albumin-free vaccine, is currently the only MMR vaccine licensed in the United States, any interruption in its availability would pose a critical public health risk.

Therefore, GlaxoSmithKline Vaccines is currently evaluating its trivalent MMR vaccinePriorixTM(MMR-RIT) for use in the United States. MMR-RIT is routinely given in over 100 countries from the second year of life onwards [10].

The formulation of MMR-RIT used in this study does not contain human serum albumin, thereby minimizing any theoretical risk of microbial contamination as compared to previous formulations [11]
Content from External Source
http://jpids.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/09/08/jpids.piu081.full


and just for fun, since your 'human fetuses' bit sounds so icky:


WI-38is a diploid human cell culture line composed of fibroblasts derived from lung tissue of a three month old white female fetus.[1]The cell line, isolated by Leonard Hayflick and Paul Moorhead in the 1960s,[2]has been used extensively in scientific research, with applications ranging from developing important theories in molecular biology to the production of many types of vaccines. .[3]The contributions from this cell line on research has been credited with saving the lives of "millions of people".[4]
Content from External Source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WI-38





and be off the fence about this subject
i think with every vaccine esp. for children, you should find a doctor willing to take the time to discuss side effects in full and address parental concerns.

I do not agree, EVER, in giving or spreading medical advice to people unless you are a qualified MEDICAL doctor who is keeping up on all the new studies and literature.
 
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Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
Finally to the point of my post, my last remaining big concern is the "Amino Acids and proteins" section.

Interesting suggestion. Well let's go through that claim. When it comes to introducing immunity, the best way to do it is to expose the would-be afflicted area with the antigen. For example, this is why the oral polio vaccine (OPV) works so well, polio spreads through the fecal-oral route. An oral vaccine for a virus that is swallowed.
It is true that when you inject any foreign protein into the bloodstream, your body could make antibodies and develop memory against them. Now, does this mean you develop a food allergy? Not necessarily. The GI tract actually has its own immune system. If you think about it, this makes perfect sense since your gut needs many different kinds of bacteria to function correctly and you don't want your immune system to attack them. So developing a food allergy is a special case that would not necessarily develop from small amounts of purified proteins being injected into your bloodstream. This is because the bloodstream immune cells and secretions don't interact much with the GI tract. It might happen, but its not very likely.
So when you weigh the options with this in mind, you get this choice: maybe a food allergy or be at risk for measles/mumps/influenza/rubella/etc.
 

Libertarian

Banned
Banned
Recent Measles outbreak is linked or spread to unvaccinated people/kids. 1/15/2015

A “significant number” of those who became infected from the Disneyland outbreak were not vaccinated, Dr. James Watt, head of the California Department of Health’s division of communicable disease control, told the Times. It’s incredibly rare for someone who has been vaccinated against measles to become infected. According to Dr. George Rutherford, head of the Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at the UCSF School of Medicine, the vaccine is 95 percent effective.
http://www.newsweek.com/measles-outbreak-started-disneyland-spreads-four-states-299469
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It appears that the outbreak is also linked to vaccinated people/kids. Otherwise wouldn't they say "All of those who became infected....(were unvaccinated)"? I was vaccinated against Measles and contracted them....so I know it happens from first hand experience. Perhaps the vaccine doesn't work as well as Dr. Rutherford claims. I wonder, what does "significant" mean? Why not just cite the actual number of vaccinated vs unvaccinated cases?

More important than the number of cases is the ratio of unvaccinated cases to vaccinated cases, and how that ratio compares to the broader ratio of unvaccinated people relative to vaccinated people attending the park. All of this should correlate very closely. IE we aught to see a rate of 5% exposure among the vaccinated population, assuming Dr. Rutherford's "95 percent effective" statistic is correct.

For example, if there were 1050 people exposed, of whom 1000 people were vaccinated and 50 were unvaccinated, then we should see a rate of exposure of approximately equal distribution among the 5% of the 1000 vaccinated for whom the vaccine did not have efficacy, i.e. 50 people, and the 50 unvaccinated people. If the disease then had a 50% infection rate among those exposed, then you would have 25 unvaccinated and 25 vaccinated cases, given the above hypothetical numbers, and Dr. Rutherford's 95% input. This is a very simple derivation. It is not included in this article. In fact I couldn't find a simple breakdown by population type published anywhere. I found only scaremongering. This leads me to believe that the California Department of Health is embarrassed by the outbreak numbers.

Where is the scientific analyses of this outbreak? I thought pro-vaxers prided themselves on science. We need some science to prove the validity of the claims being made by the Dept of Health here.
 
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Efftup

Senior Member.
While I agree that it would have been nice to have got a number from James Watt (the man who said Significant number), I think you immediately believing the California Dept of Health is embarrassed by the numbers is possibly a bit of a premature jumping to a conclusion.

Measles WAS quite widespread and in many cases fatal. After they started vaccinating, the measles cases went down. When most people were getting vaccinated it got to the point where the USA claimed to have "eliminated" measles (meaning it wasn't continually circulating).
Since the anti vax campaigns where fewer people are being vaccinated there have been several measles outbreaks in the USA. What does THAT lead you to believe?
 

Efftup

Senior Member.
best figures i have found so far.
Of the 16 cases reported in California up to the 11th Jan, 2 had been confirmed as being vaccinated. some were partially vaccinated ( I believe there are 2 shots so they must have only had one so far) and at least 2 were too young.

the only way to get a real picture of course would be to find out who the original carrier was and how many people they had had contact with. And find out how many of all those people had been vaccinated.
 
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