MikeC

Closed Account
as a matter of interest, how many of those are single-disease vaccines that are actually administered in one shot (eg MMR)??

In other news a totally scientific study has found that autism causes vaccines......

"We studied a bunch of autistic men and women, and each and every one of them was once vaccinated for something at some point in their lives," said Moran. "The message is obvious: if you have autism, sooner or later, you're going to get a painful vaccination."
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Heather S.

Member
Yep.. I agree:

I have never looked into this before, but happened to see the picture shared by a friend on Facebook. I decided to read some of the comments to it after reading it. Not many were arguing for vaccines, but they were certainly holding their own against those apposing them. Most of the arguments against having them weren't very convincing, even for someone like me who hasn't looked into it.
 

Svartbjørn

Senior Member.
I have never looked into this before, but happened to see the picture shared by a friend on Facebook. I decided to read some of the comments to it after reading it. Not many were arguing for vaccines, but they were certainly holding their own against those apposing them. Most of the arguments against having them weren't very convincing, even for someone like me who hasn't looked into it.

I agree with you there too.. but when it comes to Facebook, I dont bother reading the comments.. its usually one side screaming and yelling obscenities at the other with little or no regard for attempting to have a meaningful conversation. From my own perspective, Ive spent my entire life in and around the medical community.. both my mother and my ex-wife are paramedics, Ive done several years as a Veterinary Assistant so the idea of Herd Immunity is very familiar.

The biggest argument AGAINST vaccines is "Nobody gets measles or polio anymore, so we're getting injected for no reason and its poison." Its a basic misunderstanding of science and why vaccines work. While its true that the fluids vaccines suspended in have mercury and all that in them.. we're talking parts per BILLION.. one molecule of mercury for every billion molecules of everything else in the suspension. We measure lead and mercury in water in parts per million, just to give you a reference.

The easiest way to understand herd immunity is to think of having a broken arm. You're in a butt load of pain, your body's screaming at you so you're given drugs to mitigate the pain or, in some cases, remove it completely. If you take said pain killer and your arm stops hurting.. does that mean your arm is now completely healed? No.. of course not, it just means that you're not feeling the pain anymore. If you dont take your next dose of pain killers, the pain will come back. Herd Immunity works the same way... if a large enough portion of the herd is immune to a certain contagion or disease, then the chances of the herd getting sick is very very very greatly reduced. Its why Polio is almost unheard of in humans these days. I realize this isnt a perfect analogy but it helps illustrate the point.

As far as autism goes, there's no real evidence to back it up. There IS a real danger of a very very small percentage of the population being allergic to the suspension fluid that delivers the vaccine into your body, but thats true for absoutely -everything.- Someone, somewhere on the planet is allergic to SOMETHING. Personally, Ive had every injection on the vaccine list, Im not autistic.. same with my five brothers and sisters as well as the thousands of kids Id gone to school with from Kindergarten upward. If the vaccines were as dangerous, or caused autism in the way anti-vax types claim... then even in that small population there would be a much much MUCH greater number of kids dying from injections or having autism. The numbers just dont add up.

WIth that said, I think its a great idea that people are looking into medicine for themselves and not just blindly listening to what their doctor tells them, but at the same time there's SO much information out there its hard to separate the bullshit from fact.. which is the exact reason Metabunk exists.

*Edit: Grammatical corrections
 
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Spectrar Ghost

Senior Member.
This might be a callous and sad (and possibly off-topic) thing to say, but I think the only thing that would change anti-vaxxers' minds is if one of their children caught pertussis or diphtheria. Then again, maybe it wouldn't.
They wouldn't have caught it if big pharma weren't intentionally injecting people with it. Obviously.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Something sad and a rather shocking display of ignorance I saw on facebook was a picture from a Babar book with the caption:
'It appears Babar is better informed than most public health officials'.
upload_2015-8-26_6-32-33.png
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
2013:
ANOTHER child died of measles at Mayo Hospital on Tuesday, which brought the death toll to 11 in Lahore so far. One-and-a-half year old Babar died of measles at Mayo Hospital. The administration of the hospital confirmed the casualty.
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I saw on facebook was a picture from a Babar book
i think that originated with this post. (also a chemtrailist amongst other things it looks)
https://www.facebook.com/OccupyProh...44614/628326403938301/?type=1&hc_location=ufi

The book was written in 1971. Babar and the Doctor

Sadly the author, who has NO medical background, his father, the creator of Babar died in 1937 of TB:
After the first book Histoire de Babar (The Story of Babar), six more titles followed before Jean de Brunhoff died of tuberculosis at the age of 37.[1937] [7][8][9] He was buried in Père Lachaise Cemetery in Paris.
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The BCG vaccine was first used in humans in 1921.[47]

Public acceptance was slow, and one disaster, in particular, did much to harm public acceptance of the vaccine.
....
In 1928, BCG was adopted by the Health Committee of the League of Nations (predecessor to the WHO). Because of opposition, however, it only became widely used after World War II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCG_vaccine
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The Brady Bunch all survived measles too. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0531101/
So i guess because children TV shows and children's books dont show dying children, measles must be safe. Sounds reasonable. :/
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
While its true that the fluids vaccines suspended in have mercury and all that in them.. we're talking parts per BILLION.. one molecule of mercury for every billion molecules of everything else in the suspension. We measure lead and mercury in water in parts per million, just to give you a reference.

Nowadays there isn't even mercury in vaccines anymore. Also, it's not really mercury, its thiomersal, a mercury compound. So it doesn't have the same toxicity properties of mercury. It just acts as a preservative preventing bacteria and fungi from growing. This is to help prevent children from getting infections at the injection site. To say that we injected mercury into kids is to take thiomersal out of chemical context.
 
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MikeC

Closed Account
I think a slightly longer explanation of the content of the link would be useful - eg this paragraph:

Between 2003 and 2013, SafeMinds provided scientists from the University of Texas Southwestern School of Medicine, the University of Washington, the Johnson Center for Child Health & Development and other research institutions with approximately $250,000 to conduct a long-term investigation evaluating behavioral and brain changes of baby rhesus macaques that were administered a standard course of childhood vaccines. (The National Autism Association, another organization that has questioned vaccine safety, also provided financial support for this research.) The latest paper in the multiyear project was published Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS). In it, the researchers concluded that vaccines did not cause any brain or behavioral changes in the primates.
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Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
21ST CENTURY VETERANS BENEFITS DELIVERY ACT will make Veterans, treated at the V.A., human guinea pigs for the pharmaceutical vaccine industry.

Can you point to a section of the document that supports this idea? In what case are veterans being treated as "guinea pigs?" As far as I can tell this document only talks about vaccines that have already been tested, approved, and recommended.
 

Thinkerdoer

New Member
I've seen those declining disease charts that are referred to in the video. The poster suggests that the Pertussis vaccine had been used before 1949, when it was officially added to the US vaccine schedule in the multidose DTP vaccine. Although it may have been administered in some practices prior to 1949, widespread use did not occur until later. i.e. Following the introduction of pertussis vaccination during the 1950s – 1960s, http://www.who.int/biologicals/vaccines/pertussis/en/
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
Although it may have been administered in some practices prior to 1949, widespread use did not occur until later.

Yes, some vaccines were used during localized outbreaks before being mass-produced. The claim that vaccines aren't actually responsible for the decline in disease incidence is a strange one.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
The anti-vaxxers have a summit this weekend and the Dallas Morning News put this out:

An autism summit in Dallas this weekend features a medical professional who has been disciplined for mistreating children and celebrities who shun science and claim vaccines are dangerous. Autism advocates say the event offers false hope to parents by promoting miracle cures and treatments proved to be dangerous and ineffective.
The Autism Education Summit is hosted by Generation Rescue, an organization co-founded by anti-vaccine advocate Jenny McCarthy, who has a son with autism. McCarthy will be joined by Bexar County District Attorney Nico Lahood, who also claims vaccines cause autism.
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http://www.dallasnews.com/news/debu...reatmentsby-discredited-medical-professionals
 

Graham2001

Active Member
Sorry to bump up this thread, but the Australian Prime Minister has thrown his weight behind calls to ban unvaccinated children from childcare centers and pre-schools. Reasonable Hank has covered the reaction of the Anti-Vaxxers response:


The following screenshots of reactions from anti-vaccination activists – including attacks against the bereaved McCaffery and Hughes families (both of whom lost babies Dana and Riley, respectively, to whooping cough), as well as attacks on Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, his wife, and members of his government – are taken from various anti-vaccination Facebook groups and pages, today.

Anti-vaccination activists state that Malcolm Turnbull “needs a bullet”, and that he needs to “be put down.” Another states he would be “happy to punch him in the head.”
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https://reasonablehank.com/2017/03/...ion-childcare-policy-vilify-bereaved-parents/
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Reasonable Hank has covered the reaction of the Anti-Vaxxers response:
EVERY large group of people has a few members who are 'embarrassing' to the group. Anti-vaxxers are by far and large non-violent.

While conspiracy-pushing is dangerous in that it aids in riling up unstable people, I doubt your blurb there is indicative of "the Anti-vaxxer response" as a whole.
 

David Jensen

Closed Account
The article linked below [claims to ]shows how new Chinese research points to aluminum nanoparticles used as adjuvants in vaccines as causing autism (i.e. brain injury):

Published studies are showing that autism is caused by an immune activation event. The adjuvant in vaccines — aluminum adjuvant — can activate the brain’s immune system and is far more neurotoxic than previously realized — all the new science has been published in just the last few years. Aluminum can cause IL-6, the key cytokine implicated in autism. Chinese scientists — for the first time anywhere in the world — used a vaccine to trigger an immune activation event, and recorded elevated levels of IL-6 in rats. THIS is a biological basis for HOW a vaccine can cause autism.
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The article also references a scientific article from the Middle East that successfully used aluminum to induce Alzheimer's disease in lab rats as well as autism:


The study authors also disputed the way the FDA and CDC currently think about aluminum adjuvant toxicity, basically saying that the current approach is wrong:

“As a possible consequence, comparing vaccine adjuvant exposure to other non- relevant aluminium exposures, e.g. soluble aluminium and other routes of exposure, may not represent valid approaches.”

And, the French scientists finish with a conclusion that all parents should find very troubling:

“In the context of massive development of vaccine-based strategies worldwide, the present study may suggest that aluminium adjuvant toxicokinetics and safety require reevaluation.”
Reminder: this study has only been public for 2 months!

Discovery #3: Aluminum can increase IL-6 in the brain
One of the only frustrations of the remarkable toxicity studies on aluminum adjuvant coming out of France is that many scientists did not explicitly measure the mice brains for the cytokine IL-6 which we know can be released during an immune activation event and also know is strongly associated with causing autism. But, a study from the Middle East published roughly one year ago, provides a strong foundation for the IL-6-aluminum adjuvant connection.

In this case, scientists were using aluminum to induce Alzheimer’s in rats, which they appear to have done successfully, showing that aluminum caused a 4-fold increase in IL-6:

“The results also showed that aluminum administration increased the hippocampus pro-inflammatory cytokines TNF-α by 3.8-fold, IL-6 by 4-fold, and iNOS by 3.8-fold compared to the normal control group.”

If any of this remains confusing, I think VP’s description of aluminum adjuvant in the body will fill in any holes:

Most vaccines contain aluminum, and aluminum is a proven neurotoxin, in amounts received from vaccines. Vaccines in combination can result in toxic aluminum overload. Even the aluminum in a single vaccine can be harmful because the aluminum is in a form that is more dangerous than ingested aluminum. Specifically, vaccine aluminum is in nanoparticulate form, which is harder for the body to eliminate, and because it is transported around the body differently than ingested aluminum.It is natural and normal to ingest small doses of aluminum from food and water. Its not good for you, but the body has adequate defenses. Absorption of ingested Al is low, about 0.3%, so about 99.7% is eliminated in feces. Ingested aluminum is in ionic form (individual charged atoms), which is readily removed by the kidneys. Also, ionic aluminum is blocked from entering the brain by the blood brain barrier. The low absorption, rapid elimination by the kidneys and barrier to brain entry adequately protects the brain from aluminum.However, nanoparticulate aluminum from vaccines cannot be removed by the kidneys. The particles are far too large to be filtered out by the kidneys. The Al nanoparticles do dissolve slowly (converting to ionic aluminum). But long before they can dissolve completely, the Al nanoparticles are “eaten” by immune system cells called macrophages. In other words, the particles wind up inside the macrophages. Once loaded with the Al nanoparticles, the macrophages spread aluminum as they travel through the body. This is dangerous, because the Al-loaded macrophages carry Al nanoparticles to tissues (e.g. the brain) that are damaged by very small amounts of aluminum.
Content from External Source
https://healthcareinamerica.us/did-chinese-scientists-find-autisms-missing-puzzle-piece-2d50be5b9122

Just imagine Australia using social sanction against children whose parents do not want to expose them to having aluminum nanoparticle adjuvants injected into their bodies given the known neurotoxic effects.
 
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Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
The article linked below [claims to ]shows how new Chinese research points to aluminum nanoparticles used as adjuvants in vaccines as causing autism (i.e. brain injury):

Content from external source Published studies are showing that autism is caused by an immune activation event. The adjuvant in vaccines — aluminum adjuvant — can activate the brain’s immune system and is far more neurotoxic than previously realized — all the new science has been published in just the last few years. Aluminum can cause IL-6, the key cytokine implicated in autism. Chinese scientists — for the first time anywhere in the world — used a vaccine to trigger an immune activation event, and recorded elevated levels of IL-6 in rats. THIS is a biological basis for HOW a vaccine can cause autism.

For reference, here is the original article.
https://vaccinepapers.org/wp-conten...lances-and-mediates-autism-like-behaviors.pdf

The initial claim that autism is caused by an immune activation event is questionable. The immune system's possible role in autism has been consistently shown to specifically involve maternal infection during pregnancy, familial autoimmune disease, and maternal autoimmune antibodies rather than immune response events during post-natal development.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0896841115300548
Immunologic risk factors, including maternal infection during pregnancy, autoantibodies to fetal brain proteins, and familial autoimmune disease, have consistently been observed across multiple studies, as have immune abnormalities in individuals with ASD.
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It is not clear whether or not the immune abnormalities are a cause or result of the disorder. With that said, everything else the article claims almost becomes irrelevant. It is also confusing that a vaccine being used to cause an immune activation event is made out to be significant here. If a vaccine fails to cause an immune response, then you have no vaccine. At the heart of their argument, however, is the use of aluminum in vaccines, which has been widely demonstrated to be safe and effective in the amounts used.
http://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-ingredients/aluminum
The aluminum contained in vaccines is similar to that found in a liter (about 1 quart or 32 fluid ounces) of infant formula. While infants receive about 4.4 milligrams* of aluminum in the first six months of life from vaccines, they receive more than that in their diet. Breast-fed infants ingest about 7 milligrams, formula-fed infants ingest about 38 milligrams, and infants who are fed soy formula ingest almost 117 milligrams of aluminum during the first six months of life.
Content from External Source
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X11015799
Using these updated parameters we found that the body burden of aluminum from vaccines and diet throughout an infant's first year of life is significantly less than the corresponding safe body burden of aluminum modeled using the regulatory MRL. We conclude that episodic exposures to vaccines that contain aluminum adjuvant continue to be extremely low risk to infants and that the benefits of using vaccines containing aluminum adjuvant outweigh any theoretical concerns.
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deirdre

Senior Member.
@Dan Wilson quick question. I'm spring cleaning so haven't had time to look it up.. this il-6 connection seems to be what they are basing a connection on. saying aluminum causes il-6 elevations. I'm wondering if perseverative behaviors ( used to be called "stimming" although I'm not sure if that is still a politically correct term) could account for these alleged elevated il-6 levels in autistics.

* I say alleged only because the little I know about it the study sizes were wicked small.


adding: since the vast majority of "asd" kids do not have sever behaviors, I'm adding this just so parents reading casually don't freak out
Both the circulating levels of these pro-inflammatory cytokines and the degree of monocyte activation are associated with more impaired behaviors in children with ASD (Ashwood et al., 2011a; Enstrom et al., 2010; Onore et al., 2012). These findings notwithstanding, many of the links between ASD and immune system dysregulation are drawn from associative studies that pose compelling correlations between neurodevelopmental disorders and immune dysfunction. However, limitations in experimental design and the myriad of uncontrolled variability, as a result of ethical boundaries placed on human research, requires the use of animal models to effectively link causality to these patterns of association. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4776653/
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When psychologically stressed, the human body produces stress hormones like cortisol, which are able to trigger interleukin-6 release into the circulation.[8]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interleukin_6
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Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
I'm wondering if perseverative behaviors ( used to be called "stimming" although I'm not sure if that is still a politically correct term) could account for these alleged elevated il-6 levels in autistics.

That's an interesting idea. I don't know if that's been tested or how many with ASD display stimming (I believe that is the PC term) behavior. Either way, the increased IL-6 is probably not a significant causal factor in the disease disorder.
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
Either way, the increased IL-6 is probably not a significant causal factor in the disease disorder.
thanks. plucking through some of the papers, and yes according to this study trying to determine if they can use il-6 and serotonin levels as biomarkers for diagnosis...http://vaccinepapers.org/wp-content...and-interleukin-6-as-biomarker-for-autism.pdf...

only half (n=33) the autistic individuals displayed il-6 levels above the control (n=31, non autistic children) children.
serotonin and il6.JPG

it is interesting, the il-6 levels in some asd persons, but of course many things are known to increase il-6 levels so this really has nothing to do with vaccines at all.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
Wasn't sure where to find this info, so I'll just ask here. I see some claims going around that vaccinated people are the ones infecting the unvaccinated people. Is that possible at all?
 

skephu

Senior Member.
Wasn't sure where to find this info, so I'll just ask here. I see some claims going around that vaccinated people are the ones infecting the unvaccinated people. Is that possible at all?
If we are talking about attenuated live virus vaccines, yes, they can infect them with the live vaccine virus, and essentially vaccinate them as well!
 

LouV

Member
Yes, you are talking about shedding.
It only concerns a few vaccines, it's still pretty rare, and contaminated people will not develop the full blown disease (although it's better to be cautious around immunocompromised people, out of caution)
http://www.immunizeusa.org/blog/2016/september/24/vaccine-shedding/


Only three vaccines in the routinely recommended childhood vaccination schedule are made using weakened, but live, viruses. In some instances, the virus can be detected for a short period of time in the vaccinated patient and that can sometimes lead to others being infected with the vaccine version of the virus. But those instances are extraordinarily rare.

With the chickenpox vaccine, for example, 11 people are known to have caught the disease through exposure to a vaccinated person—but that’s out of more than 50 million people who have been vaccinated. And even then, the vaccine is shed only in the case of people who develop a chickenpox-like rash following vaccination. That is why if a person recently vaccinated against chickenpox does develop a rash, they are advised to avoid contact with individuals with weakened immune systems.

Other than that, however, there’s no evidence of harm to others, Wootton said. The measles and mumps vaccines do not shed at all. Signs of the third virus in the MMR trio, rubella, can be found from 7 to 28 days after immunization, Wootton said, but at levels far too low for anyone to catch it.

And rotavirus is found for a while in the stool of some babies who have received the vaccine, but the chances of transmission to others are small, and the benefits of the vaccine far outweigh the small risks involved. Getting the vaccine is important because without it almost every child in the country will be infected with rotavirus by age 5, and that’s contagious as well.
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Hama Neggs

Senior Member.
I have a separate question. If an older person thinks they never had measles or mumps, should they be vaccinated against them now?
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
I have a separate question. If an older person thinks they never had measles or mumps, should they be vaccinated against them now?
Depends how at risk they are. I got mumps as an army nurse and it was dreadful. I ended up with the nickname of Buster Gonads. I will let your imagination run with that.
 

LouV

Member
There are also centers specialized in vaccination in some countries ; maybe look for where you would have to go if you wanted the necessary vaccinations for traveling.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
I meant "older" in terms of not a child... and adult. Are there accepted guidelines on that? Don't know when I would be in a position to ask an actual doctor.
Considering the types of readers and posters that MB attracts, I think it is inappropriate to allow any members to dispense medical advice. You can google the question of course. or

You can phone any doctor's office up and ask. Either the desk personnel will know and will tell you, or they will have a doctor or physician assistant/nurse call you back. In my state you can call 211 and they will tell you who you can call.
 

Trailspotter

Senior Member.
A recent news piece from Science magazine:
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/03/vaccine-opponents-attack-us-science-panel
A clear parallel with the chemtrail crowd targeting scientific meetings on 'geoengineering' topics


K. J. Moore, a traveling nurse, told a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention vaccine panel last week that she is upset by mandates that health care workers receive the flu vaccine.

JOHN BAZEMORE/AP PHOTO
Vaccine opponents attack U.S. science panel
By Meredith WadmanMar. 4, 2019 , 1:10 PM

ATLANTA—The U.S. antivaccine movement has found a new front for its attacks on scientists and their work: gatherings of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP), which recommends which vaccines Americans should receive. Since last summer, increasing numbers of vaccine opponents have come to ACIP meetings, held three times a year here at the campus of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), to vent their anger at the 15 buttoned-down experts on the panel during the public comments section—and to lambaste vaccination in general.

“I do not consent to handing over my God-given children to the government of the United States of America,” Sandy Spaetti, who had traveled from Rockport, Indiana, said at ACIP’s meeting on 27 February, to raucous applause from dozens of other activists. “How is a vaccine that caused my son’s intestines to fold in on itself and almost die safe and effective?” asked Nicole Mason, a photographer from Jacksonville, Florida, who said she lost faith in all vaccines when her 4-month-old son developed intussusception, an intestinal obstruction, after receiving the rotavirus vaccine last summer. (The blockage occurs in an estimated one to five of every 100,000 infants vaccinated; it can also be caused by rotavirus infection itself.)

“This may be the new normal. We don’t know. But it certainly is a lot more than we have seen in the past,” says ACIP’s new chair, José Romero, a pediatric infectious disease specialist at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences and Arkansas Children’s Hospital in Little Rock who has served on the panel for 4 years.
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theHassan

New Member
Dear All, there was a question before about whether an exposure to a vaccine-preventable disease would change the minds of antivaccine believers. Here is a story from Europe.

https://ecdc.europa.eu/sites/portal...ria-spain-rapid-risk-assessment-june-2015.pdf

The link above is a summary from ECDC (kinda like CDC). It was published before the final outcome: the Spanish boy died of diphteria.

The boy was not vaccinated, his parents were against vaccination because of personal beliefs. It was not known how he caught the disease. He was hospitalized and treated with antibiotics. Spain, just like the majority of European countries, did not sockpile diphteria antitoxin, because the disease was practically eradicated. The antitoxin was sourced from Russia, but it was too late. 10 more people were infected, but they did not develope symptomps, as all of them were vaccinated. They were isolated and treated with antibiotics.

Another summary: https://elpais.com/elpais/2015/06/29/inenglish/1435559306_461811.html

The child from Olot was the first registered case of diphtheria in Spain in nearly three decades. This infectious disease had been all but wiped out thanks to mass vaccination campaigns in Spain. Vaccinations against diphtheria began in Spain in 1945, and in 1965 it was included along with jabs for tetanus and whooping cough. From 1,000 cases for every 100,000 inhabitants there were soon barely any. The Health Ministry registered the last case in 1987. Catalonia had not seen a case for 32 years.
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Right after he was hospitalized, his parents had their daughter vaccinated (she did not get vaccination before, for the same reason, the personal beliefs of the parents), and had spoken out against the antivaccination movement: https://elpais.com/elpais/2015/06/05/inenglish/1433512717_575817.html

"The family is devastated and admit that they feel tricked, because they were not properly informed,” said Catalan public health chief Antoni Mateu. “They have a deep sense of guilt, which we are trying to rid them of."
Content from External Source
So, yes, it is possible that reality kicks in the door and presents itself. However, there should be no need to happen this way...
 
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