deirdre

Senior Member.
No, of course you don't. You are fully bought in and that is your choice. But we do see it. And we don't feel like just putting a blindfold on and joining the "don't see it" crowd.
don't give me, the 'youre all establishmenty' line. I'm not. What I am is all "protecting children".

I'm not saying the Naturopath hurt, I'm saying you have no actual evidence he helped.

You've been lying about the MMR vaccine. You lied to us that the machine "pegged" the vaccine (which is impossible because it can only peg individual ingredients). You've ignored the Flu vaccine and went right to "I'm telling people not to get the DTap IPV HlB."

That is irresponsible, at best.

You are endangering other children's lives over ONE Doctors office? ONE nurse? Does that sound reasonable?

Yes, advocate that Doctors have to give you side effect printouts like they do in America. Advocate to parents to watch for food allergies.

But the truth is if you didn't recognize your kids skin erupted ONE DAY after being at the Doctors office (maybe he picked up a bug), until months later when the Naturopath "suggested" it to you.. then we can't even verify your sons skin didn't erupt a week later or two weeks later.

I think, from my own experience and the dozens and dozens of parents I know, if your kid gets sick right after being at the doctors office, it is common sense to think he picked something up at the doctors office. In my opinion if it actually happened right after the shot you would have equated the problem with the doctors office (even if you didn't equate it to the shot per se)
 

Libertarian

Banned
Banned
Present it as the truth, then. Don't tout it as a reason to avoid vaccination.
We do. But our "in the trenches" understanding of the truth is quite different than those who toss about "coincidence" so easily. Our experience was that it was not coincidence. Nothing I've read here convinces me otherwise.
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
We do. But our "in the trenches" understanding of the truth is quite different than those who toss about "coincidence" so easily. Our experience was that it was not coincidence. Nothing I've read here convinces me otherwise.

You don't think it was a food allergy and instead believe it to be something intrinsically harmful in the vaccine itself?
 

Libertarian

Banned
Banned
then we can't even verify your sons skin didn't erupt a week later or two weeks later.
I don't need you to verify anything. We already did that. I suppose you could call my errant belief that the shot he got was MMR a lie... all the power to you. But we know what happened, and the Naturopath confirmed his sensitivity to the contents of the shot. (Or perhaps shots?). Which substance harmed our child is irrelevant. If someone had clubbed him on the head, it wouldn't matter whether it was done with a baseball bat or a hammer so much as that he had been clubbed on the head. So let's not lose sleep over the tool that did the damage so much as that the damage was done. The "Who, How and Why" surrounding the damage is much more important than the impliment. That will continue to be my focus.
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
Which substance harmed our child is irrelevant. If someone had clubbed him on the head, it wouldn't matter whether it was done with a baseball bat or a hammer so much as that he had been clubbed on the head.

It matters HUGELY. Your analogy makes no sense in this context. Answer my question above, please.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
Naturopath confirmed his sensitivity to the contents of the shot
no he didn't or you could give me the exact ingredient
We already did that
no you didn't

I'm really not trying to pick on you. But you've been adding fuel to the MMR is bad bunk which is causing outbreaks. I'm hoping you'll just take a breath and think things through. maybe it was the flu shot. maybe it was a combination of all the shots and his prior eczema issue. maybe it was a combination of all the shots, his prior eczema issue, a bug he picked up at the doctors office and something your wife ate that day.

All I'm saying, is please start advocating responsibly now that you have some more facts and thoughts to ponder.
 

Libertarian

Banned
Banned
You don't think it was a food allergy and instead believe it to be something intrinsically harmful in the vaccine itself?
His only "food" at the time was breast milk. My wife's diet was the same in the week prior and the weeks after. The only thing that entered our sons' body that was any different was the vaccine. And when we conveyed this to the Naturopath 3 months later, he tested some vaccine vials which caused the same electrodermal reaction as his other allergens. Allergens which were born out to be correctly identified.
 

Libertarian

Banned
Banned
But you've been adding fuel to the MMR is bad bunk
Yes. This is true, in that I believed this was the shot he had received. I obviously will not be telling anyone that the MMR shot did this to our child at this point, and will rather tell them that DTaP or Flu did. And I'll make a point of making this correction with those who I did tell...so that should correct any bunk I've inadvertently contributed to.

Theorizing that his terrible reaction was perhaps a coincidence is something I probably won't do. There is enough representation in the "It was probably a coincidence" camp.
 

Libertarian

Banned
Banned
That is not what I am highlighting as unethical and I thought that was clear - telling others not to vaccinate based on your experience is.
It would be unethical if I believed the advertised rates of side effects which I do not. It is because I think the advertised rates of side effects are bunk that I warn people from vaccination.

All I'm saying, is please start advocating responsibly now that you have some more facts and thoughts to ponder.
Of course I will do this. You guys are great at digging into stuff, and while I think you mistakenly chock too much up to coincidence and do not appreciate the propaganda being disseminated by our public health dept's with respect to the safety of the vaccines, I do not dispute their efficacy.
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
Theorizing that his terrible reaction was perhaps a coincidence is something I probably won't do. There is enough representation in the "It was probably a coincidence" camp.
sigh. NOONE has said "it probably was a coincidence" you are twisting our words just like you're twisting the facts in your story. It possibly being a coincidence is one option.

well hopefully you will take time to ponder information people have provided here and you'll dig further before pointing fingers at other vaccines that save children's lives. and if your kids do contract measles or anything please do inform the drs office they are not vaccinated before bringing them in the pediatricians office. They can make sure they don't have any newborns around.

and just cause, this is what I do, another factor that could have contributed is Stress. The stress from the shots (both physically and emotionally), then continued stress from itchy painful skin plus mom and dads stress as you're crying. etc.

just throwing it out there so you have as much info as you can get. I'm sure the eczema organizations can add a lot more than me as far as this side of things http://www.eczema.net/eczema-and-stress/
 

Libertarian

Banned
Banned
well hopefully you will take time to ponder information people have provided here and you'll dig further before pointing fingers at other vaccines that save children's lives. and if your kids do contract measles or anything please do inform the drs office they are not vaccinated before bringing them in the pediatricians office. They can make sure they don't have any newborns around.
We tend to avoid hospitals etc. like the plague written places that they are... but yes this is a very good call regarding letting the Doc's office know if we bring our own potential sickness in.

I know the vaccines save lives. That is why I was in vaccinating ours. But the side effects are being badly misrepresented in my view. This needs to be fixed at the level of the nurses conducting the vaccinations themselves, first and foremest. And our media could stop lying about there being no side effects. I always see ads in the paper around the flu shot saying it is a "conspiracy theory" that there can be adverse effects.
 

Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
And our media could stop lying about there being no side effects.

Side effects to medication are always a possibility. Claiming otherwise is just not realistic. Can you back up you statement with some evidence?

I always see ads in the paper around the flu shot saying it is a "conspiracy theory" that there can be adverse effects.

Could you show us an example of such an ad?
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
His only "food" at the time was breast milk. My wife's diet was the same in the week prior and the weeks after. The only thing that entered our sons' body that was any different was the vaccine. And when we conveyed this to the Naturopath 3 months later, he tested some vaccine vials which caused the same electrodermal reaction as his other allergens. Allergens which were born out to be correctly identified.

Are you not understanding this? Your son was found to be allergic to many types of food. You particularly mentioned beef, which caused your son to flare up when he ate it. If your son received the aforementioned DTaP vaccine, then he had cattle serum in his blood stream which probably caused his reaction. Your son reacted that way because he has a severe ALLERGY. It was nothing innately harmful in the vaccine.
 

Libertarian

Banned
Banned
sigh. NOONE has said "it probably was a coincidence" you are twisting our words just like you're twisting the facts in your story. It possibly being a coincidence is one option.
You are right dierdre. Most of you didn't say it was "probably a coincidence", but rather that it simply was one. So I guess I twisted your words to far in the the direction of being open to another possibility. It doesn't actually look that way though. You guys on the whole do not appear open to another possibility at all. :p

he onset of infant eczema is bound to coincide with vaccination for thousands of children. It will also coincide with equal numbers with the first time they watch TV, or snow falls, etc.

I know things cleared up after seeing the nature specialist but that could also be a coincidence

The exact same sequence of events would have happened if the dermatitis was self-resolving at around that time. What if, like this mother, your approach had taken two years to work? Would it be "too much coincidence"?

With one case that could very likely be a coincidence as your evidence? Do you not see that this is extreme?

another coincidence you are misconstruing.

You often talk of how the establishment ignores coincidences for their benefit, yet you fail to see you're doing the same thing here.

If it was just infant dermatitis that occured and resolved at about the same time as the events, then it was a perfectly ordinary coincidence, of the type that happens all the time.

And even a one in a billion coincidence happens to seven people a day.

You have not established that anything can not possibly have been coincidental; to do so would be science and would require more data and more controls and more elimination of other possibilities.

And yet you have made a potentially life threatening decision based on nothing BUT coincidence.

Coincidence.

A child is in the backyard, playing with her favourite toy. She picks it up, and it begins to rain.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
The issue for you seems more about having a practical detection method for allergies in infants. The inclusion of ingredients in vaccines that may cause reactions in certain people would be a practical thing and is not likely to affect the majority.
What you experienced though certainly not pleasant was not life-threatening. The disease he was inoculated against would have been.
However in the interests of lessening suffering a non-invasive method of screening to catch allergens early would be worthy. If you are convinced the test works you should encourage others to take it - but first do some research on it to see if it's actually viable.
It is totally plausible a non-effective test was still able to give you 'results', but the causal link is not established and is highly doubtful.
If this was the test, science does not recognise it - maybe you can organise more testing if you think it's worth establishing as a valid diagnostic tool. It's certainly a more worthy campaign than advising against vaccination.


Electrodermal test (vega testing)
What It Is This method uses a galvanometer (an instrument that detects and measures electric currents) to gauge your body’s resistance when you come in contact with a food allergen. The patient is asked to hold the food in one hand and electric current is measured.
What You Will Hear False claim: You may be told that the electromagnetic signature of the food will interfere with that of your body if it is harmful to you. Increased resistance to the electric current indicates that you are allergic to the food being tested.
Why It Doesn't Work There is no science to support those claims. The number shown on the galvanometer is caused by the amount of contact and pressure applied by the technician.http://www.foodallergy.org/diagnosis-testing/unproven-testing#electro
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Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
Electrodermal test (vega testing)
What It Is This method uses a galvanometer (an instrument that detects and measures electric currents) to gauge your body’s resistance when you come in contact with a food allergen. The patient is asked to hold the food in one hand and electric current is measured.
What You Will Hear False claim: You may be told that the electromagnetic signature of the food will interfere with that of your body if it is harmful to you. Increased resistance to the electric current indicates that you are allergic to the food being tested.
Why It Doesn't Work There is no science to support those claims. The number shown on the galvanometer is caused by the amount of contact and pressure applied by the technician.http://www.foodallergy.org/diagnosis-testing/unproven-testing#electro
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Jezz... I knew that sounded familiar. Scientology's E-Meter is based on the same principle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-meter

Food and Drug Administration interest
In the early 1960s the US Food and Drug Administration became concerned that the sect was using the E-meter to practice medicine without a license.[20]

On January 4, 1963, more than one hundred E-meters were seized by US marshals at the "Founding Church of Scientology" building, now known as the L. Ron Hubbard House, located in Washington, D.C. The sect was accused of making false claims that the devices effectively treated some 70 percent of all physical and mental illness. The FDA also charged that the devices did not bear adequate directions for treating the conditions for which they were recommended.[21][22]
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deirdre

Senior Member.
I always see ads in the paper around the flu shot saying it is a "conspiracy theory" that there can be adverse effects
in America all ads need to list all the side effects. I don't know why anyone would take any medicine after all the side effects I hear. "take this pill to make sex more pleasant, side effects include cervical cancer, increased risk in breast cancer, possible bleeding from the eyes, instant death or acne in some patients" ; )
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
You are right dierdre. Most of you didn't say it was "probably a coincidence", but rather that it simply was one. So I guess I twisted your words to far in the the direction of being open to another possibility. It doesn't actually look that way though. You guys on the whole do not appear open to another possibility at all
I don't know, in your quote I see people saying "could"s "if"s. and weedwhacker is just giving an example. I think you're just being difficult. (insert here: the look your wife gives you when youre just being difficult)
 

Libertarian

Banned
Banned
I was saying earlier that one of our theories on why he doesn't universally react to beef, but reacts strongly to some beef, was whether or not it was "happy". i.e. whether the animal had lead a decent life and died well...We arrived at this conclusion after testing obvious things like organic vs non organic, which doesn't have an impact on whether he reacts to it.

Perhaps he reacted to the "unhappyness" of the bovine serum...

http://www.occupyforanimals.org/fetal-bovine-serum-or-fetal-calf-serum.html
 

Libertarian

Banned
Banned
It is totally plausible a non-effective test was still able to give you 'results', but the causal link is not established and is highly doubtful.
If this was the test, science does not recognise it - maybe you can organise more testing if you think it's worth establishing as a valid diagnostic tool. It's certainly a more worthy campaign than advising against vaccination.
Electrodermal testing most definately worked in identifying our sons' allergens. That someone can skew the results by using them incorrectly shouldn't have resulted in their being confiscated by the FDA. I can skew the results from a thermometer by holding it close to a light bulb. This doesn't mean the thermometer is bad. The notion of proper training is why we have medical school and medical licensing.

Perhaps little or no money could be made by the medical supply establishment from the machines....or worse, perhaps the machines were cutting into profits.

They definately work.

The judge in the Scientology trial did us all a great disservice with these statements:


Hubbard and his fellow Scientologists developed the notion of using an E-Meter to aid auditing. Substantial fees were charged for the meter and for auditing sessions using the meter. They repeatedly and explicitly represented that such auditing effectuated cures of many physical and mental illnesses. An individual processed with the aid of the E-Meter was said to reach the intended goal of 'clear' and was led to believe that there was reliable scientific proof that once cleared many, indeed most, illnesses would successfully be cured. Auditing was guaranteed to be successful. All this was and is false.

...

The E-Meter is not medically or scientifically useful for the diagnosis, treatment or prevention of any disease. It is not medically or scientifically capable of improving the health or bodily functions of anyone.
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If indeed the E-meter was the same type of machine that Wagstaff used, then this judge had his head buried up his own backside. Who gives a crap that "substantial fees were charged". I don't think any of us can argue that this is something we have fixed in today's medicine. LOL!

Perhaps Hubbard took advantage of people and misused Electrodermal testing. But perhaps he properly trained his practitioners and used it to "effectuate cures of many physical...ilnesses", as was done very very successfully with our son.
 
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deirdre

Senior Member.
I was saying earlier that one of our theories on why he doesn't universally react to beef, but reacts strongly to some beef, was whether or not it was "happy". i.e. whether the animal had lead a decent life and died well...We arrived at this conclusion after testing obvious things like organic vs non organic, which doesn't have an impact on whether he reacts to it.

Perhaps he reacted to the "unhappyness" of the bovine serum...

http://www.occupyforanimals.org/fetal-bovine-serum-or-fetal-calf-serum.html
I'm good with the unhappy animal theory. BUT... even if he was unhappy, look at your lil guys cutie face.. so the cow? saved him from whooping cough, diphtheria, tetanus, polio, hlb (Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib) is a bacterium that can infect the outer lining of the brain causing meningitis).

That would make me happy.

But it is a lot of antibodies all at once for a 'sensitive' kid with food allergies. the flu shot at 6 months is weird, I would think they would wait till flu season, even though technically you can get the flu year round.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
They definately work.
Look into on both sides. Here is a detailed look at them.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/13926/
Remember the Magic Eight Ball toy? You could ask it a question and shake it and a random answer would float up into a window: yes, no, maybe, definitely, etc. There is even a website where you can ask an Eight Ball questions online.

I have been meaning to write about bogus electrodiagnostic machines for a long time. These devices supposedly diagnose diseases and/or energy imbalances, indicate which remedies will correct the problem(s), and sometimes even treat the imbalances by transmitting a balancing frequency to the patient. I knew they were bogus, but I had never really realized the full extent of the deception until I viewed a set of training videos recently sent to me by a correspondent. I had never realized how similar electrodermal testing was to the Magic Eight Ball. I was further amazed at how they managed to combine every kind of alternative medicine into one incoherent package and to bamboozle patients with an appalling display of pseudoscientific babble.
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Why don't you go back with a 'control', someone who definitely is allergic to known substances and definitely isn't to other specific substances, but don't tell the tester you already know, and see what they come up with?
It seems he cast a wide net. How would he have done for something more specific?
The fact that it worked for you and you trust that, is natural and no-one should criticise you for believing as you do, but if you're making suggestions to others based on the experience, when science is not on its side, you need to entertain the idea you expereinced personal biases and confirmations that were of a psychological, not scientific, nature. Question the experience, make sure.

Perhaps little or no money could be made by the medical supply establishment from the machines....or worse, perhaps the machines were cutting into profits.
You really shouldn't need to invoke conspiracy theories when you can just check the science.
 

Bill

Senior Member.
I was saying earlier that one of our theories on why he doesn't universally react to beef, but reacts strongly to some beef, was whether or not it was "happy". i.e. whether the animal had lead a decent life and died well...We arrived at this conclusion after testing obvious things like organic vs non organic, which doesn't have an impact on whether he reacts to it.

Perhaps he reacted to the "unhappyness" of the bovine serum...

http://www.occupyforanimals.org/fetal-bovine-serum-or-fetal-calf-serum.html
I've stayed out of this so far mostly because anything I have to say would just be a repeat of what the others have said and that would give the impression of ganging up on you but also because given your comments about science I don't think any amount of evidence or logic is going to change your views and I see no reason to beat my head against a brick wall. When I saw the comment about the "unhappiness" of the bovine serum I felt the need to get some clarification.

Are you saying that the emotions of a dead animal can be transferred through either the meat or component serums derived from that animal (or in the case of serums refined from a number of animals of the same species to remove impurities) and that your child's reactions may be based in part on the living conditions of the animal in question and how that animal felt about those living conditions?
 

Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
Electrodermal testing most definately worked in identifying our sons' allergens. That someone can skew the results by using them incorrectly shouldn't have resulted in their being confiscated by the FDA. I can skew the results from a thermometer by holding it close to a light bulb.

Yes, you can skew the results of a thermometer. The point is that a thermometer is a proven medical instrument used to diagnose a fever.

Galvanometer's measure electric current. There is no scientific evidence that these things can diagnose anything when applied to the skin. Believe what you want, I'm not here to convince you of anything. Electrodermal allergy testing is not science, it's bunk.

Perhaps Hubbard took advantage of people and misused Electrodermal testing.

The issue is in the way the device is was used. The device does not seem to do anything. I believe scientologist's still print this disclaimer on the back of E-Meters. All this time, and still no evidence it does anything.

By itself, this meter does nothing. It is solely for the guide of Ministers of the Church in Confessionals and pastoral counselling. The Electrometer is not medically or scientifically capable of improving the health or bodily function of anyone and is for religious use by students and Ministers of the Church of Scientology only. HUBBARD, E-METER and SCIENTOLOGY are trademarks and service marks owned by RTC and used with its permission.
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deirdre

Senior Member.
Are you saying that the emotions of a dead animal can be transferred through either the meat or component serums derived from that animal
ok this thread is about vaccines, let's not get into the "Soul" debate.
 

Bill

Senior Member.
Nobody said anything about souls but this thread has touched on several areas in the last couple of pages and when it is implied that a vaccine may had a negative effect because the serum used for the vaccine came from an unhappy animal I think the question needs to be asked. This is probably a rude thing to say but it tells me a lot about the mindset involved. If you believe that dead meat has an emotional memory that can effect the living it's not much of a stretch to water molecules have memory and Homeopathy is a valid medical practice and vaccines developed by the scientific method are inherently bad for you.
 
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Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
Most of you didn't say it was "probably a coincidence", but rather that it simply was one. So I guess I twisted your words to far in the the direction of being open to another possibility.

You're ignoring my question. Here it is again

You don't think it was a food allergy and instead believe it to be something intrinsically harmful in the vaccine itself?

This thread is about vaccines. You have decided to not vaccinate your children anymore due to your son's reaction which we have "pegged" specifically as a food allergy brought on by the calf serum/egg. If you honestly believe that vaccines are dangerous enough to have your family avoid them as well as advise others to do the same based on a food allergy, then you are seriously mistaken.
 
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Jason

Senior Member
Electrodermal testing most definately worked in identifying our sons' allergens. That someone can skew the results by using them incorrectly shouldn't have resulted in their being confiscated by the FDA. I can skew the results from a thermometer by holding it close to a light bulb. This doesn't mean the thermometer is bad. The notion of proper training is why we have medical school and medical licensing.
You stated your son was much younger than now when you tested him using the naturpath and electrodermal testing. How did you get your son to sit there and hold items in his hand while some "dr" tested his electrical current. I stated above my daughter had allergies to tree nuts, onions, and seeds among other things. If she were to put an onion slice in her hand, her body would begin to react to instantly. Not because of electric currents, but because she's allergic to it. Her skin would start to get red and itchy, same with nuts. Some lotions or soaps use nut oils in them, and we've learned the hard way if you know what I mean. Allergies extend to touching the surface of your skin, you don't have to ingest it to break out. So possibly holding items in his hand that he could be allergic to, and if you've done enough of these test to know what to look for, then it's possible you can tell if someone "might" be allergic to something by putting it in their hands. But you wouldn't need an electric current tester for that, just trained eyes
 

Jason

Senior Member
it would have to be soul related. cause if the stress chemicals infiltrated the 'meat', the kid would be allergic to himself!
Sorry but this sounds like something Hannibal Lecter would say, but I know there are farms that raise cows in Japan and Australia that take this very seriously. They massage their animals, never rush them and let them graze in open fields. It doesn't have to be organic, just the way you raise your cattle
 

Jason

Senior Member
sounds like Hannibal Lecter was a pretty smart guy ; )
Thats funny, but you would have to be a serious food enthusiast and well versed in cullinary to be able to taste the difference in an animal that was stressed versus not stressed. Not too mention incredibly wealthy to be able to sustain a diet of "happy" cattle. The meat is somewhere on the order of 20 times more expensive, like Kobe beef or Wagyu beef
 

Jason

Senior Member
http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/anti-vaxxers-lose-new-york-court-battle
Three families in New York claimed that their right to free exercise of religion was violated when their unimmunized kids were barred from school because of the state’s vaccination practices. Their case was brought before the Federal District Court in Brooklyn. They lost.
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That's in the US, but libertarian is from Canada. I don't know if the laws are the same up there, and this is the point I tried making to him earlier. That if he wishes to not vaccinate his children he might have to home school them
 
This might come late in the conversation, and seem too obvious and personal, but I've been reading the last few pages and they really made me think of something serious I experienced...

When you find yourself before a scary and unknown situation, and when you're deeply worried, you start looking for signs and patterns, which at another time could seem far-fetched, but right then they seem vividly real and impossible to dismiss as coincidence.
I had an episode when I lived in Shanghai, where I was suffering from a burnout and had the weirdest symptoms. At some point someone suggested the cause for it could be MSG from too many cheap chinese lunches. I held on to this idea and you wouldn't believe the "coincidences" (these could make a whole thread) that happened when I researched it. I even had the great firewall of China intercepting my call for help on a forum about MSG (which I would now classify as bunk) and shutting down access to it for a couple of days. Talk about CT fuel.

To this day, I have no idea if MSG excitotoxicity played a role in my weird symptoms, although "information" I found suggested it did, with staggering accuracy, or so I thought, in my rush of associations and observations. Now I think it's much more likely my brain had a very scary reaction to sleep deprivation and the long-term overstimulation of moving to a monster city, which I didn't notice until too late. From neurologists to psychiatrists and psychologists, no-one could give me a certain cause... and I just had to accept that more often than not there can't be total certainty.

All this to say it definitely taught me not to trust my immediate perceptions in situations of deep stress, such as, I imagine, seeing your small child suffer so much. AND to take these perfect alternative answers to problems with a grain of salt. You have to be doubly careful, because it's likely you'll get a lot more satisfactory and in-detail explanations from sources of bunk than from doctors, and they might seem to make a lot of sense at the time and be a big relief, but are dangerous precisely for pushing you to dismiss "the establishment", which might be the only help if things ever get REALLY serious. And they did. I only really snapped out of a total state of despair after a hefty dose of antpsychotics prescribed by a psychiatrist, which I took very grudgingly at first (and stopped as soon as I could) but now believe have saved my life.

I don't mean to disrespect you Libertarian, by making an analogy of your problem with someone (me) in a semi-psychosis. I just wanted to give my perspective, because I was extremely surprised at how much cognitive dissonance I got from this, and at how my mind really tricked me in a hard time.
 

jonnyH

Senior Member.
Not too mention incredibly wealthy to be able to sustain a diet of "happy" cattle. The meat is somewhere on the order of 20 times more expensive, like Kobe beef or Wagyu beef
some people like their meat stressed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fois_gras
foie gras is defined as the liver of a duck or goose fattened by force-feeding corn with a gavage
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_veal
Criticism of veal crates revolves around the fact that the veal calves are highly restricted in movement; have unsuitable flooring; spend their entire lives indoors; experience prolonged sensory, social, and exploratory deprivation; and are more susceptible to high amounts of stress and disease.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobster#As_food
Cooks boil or steam live lobsters
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