Debunked: Lord Christopher Monckton

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Jazzy

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Did some research. Interestingly, enough credible "evidence" can be found to support 1) Global Warming. 2) Global Cooling 3) Global Warming slowing. 4) Global Warming accelerating. 5) Global Warming exacerbated by humans. 6) Global Warming caused by external factors such as solar activity. You pays your money, you takes your pick. Apparently there have been six or seven rather large and rapid temperature perturbations in the history of life on this planet. Not all resulted in mass extinctions nor were they all caused by volcanism.
"Credible". It's an interesting word.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

IMO if we get to the albedo tipping point we will lose our civilization, and if we tip the clathrates we'll be lucky not to go extinct. Look on the bright side. You too can play the game.

http://www.holladownloads.com/games_download/67837-fate-of-the-world-tipping-point.html#.UWsqUL_mOgw

F4Jock said:
someday it may happen but for now it is not commercially feasible in an industrialized country and / or one located in a geographically unsympathetic area.
Oh. Well that's it then. I wonder how feasible commerce is going to be when everyone invades you.

Imagine being a passenger on a boat above Niagara falls which is being drawn toward the falls at an ever-accelerating rate. How long do you wait before you act? Is the speed of the water already faster than the top speed of your boat? If it is, you can relax.
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
So if it isn't in the article then it cannot be happening . . . I see . . . :)

No, the scientists quoted in the article provided a number of theories to suggest why the temps aren't increasing as expected. These theories still have to be proven. There is no evidence in this article or anywhere else that geoengineering is taking place.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
No, the scientists quoted in the article provided a number of theories to suggest why the temps aren't increasing as expected. These theories still have to be proven. There is no evidence in this article or anywhere else that geoengineering is taking place.

They never considered it because no one has admitted they are doing it . . . . not because it is not possible. . . . and of course they would be discredited if they even suggested it . . .

 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
They never considered it because no one has admitted they are doing it . . . . not because it is not possible. . . .

It is possible there are Vulcans living among us. There is no evidence to support this theory. The human activities you highlighted and put in red are described in the image below.

particlesfigure_300.jpg
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
It is possible there are Vulcans living among us. There is no evidence to support this theory. The human activities you highlighted and put in red are described in the image below.

particlesfigure_300.jpg

So . . . as I said . . . I admit the graph depicts the accepted and expected sources because no one has considered geoengineering as a potential human source of the unexpected increase of SO2 in the stratosphere . . .
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
So . . . as I said . . . I admit the graph depicts the accepted and expected sources because no one has considered geoengineering as a potential human source of the unexpected increase of SO2 in the stratosphere . . .
Vulcans on earth again GB. When you have evidence please provide a link.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
The amounts of Sulfur compounds and SO2 specifically are all estimates and approximations anyway . . . there is no real fingerprinting of any compounds in the Stratosphere except for volcanic ash . . .Just some facts. . . .

Conventional wisdom indicates (SO2) in the stratosphere comes from the burning of fossil fuels. . . . aircraft is felt to contribute around 1% I believe. . . .
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Because there is NO EVIDENCE that any is happening.

I have stated that what you just stated is the accepted wisdom of the atmospheric scientists presently . . . however, their position is based all on estimates and assumptions which do not allow geoengineering into the equation . . . that is all I am saying . . .
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
I have stated that what you just stated is the accepted wisdom of the atmospheric scientists presently . . . however, their position is based all on estimates and assumptions which do not allow geoengineering into the equation . . . that is all I am saying . . .

They don't allow for a benevolent alien force putting stuff in the stratosphere to protect earth. No evidence for that though.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Vulcans on earth again GB. When you have evidence please provide a link.

So if the atmospheric scientists admit they are NOT sure of the reason for an increase in SO2 within the stratosphere . . . I am simply offering an alternative explanation . . . something which is done everyday on this FORUM . . . offering alternative explanations to things people may have misconceptions about . . . :)
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
So if the atmospheric scientists admit they are NOT sure of the reason for an increase in SO2 within the stratosphere . . . I am simply offering an alternative explanation . . . something which is done everyday on this FORUM . . . offering alternative explanations to things people may have misconceptions about . . . :)

It may be done everyday on this forum but the purpose of this forum, as I understand it, is to remove bunk. Using geoengineering as a reason for a lack of temp rise is bunk. There is no evidence to support this. Bunk removed.
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
So if the atmospheric scientists admit they are NOT sure of the reason for an increase in SO2 within the stratosphere . . . I am simply offering an alternative explanation . . . something which is done everyday on this FORUM . . . offering alternative explanations to things people may have misconceptions about . . . :)
They don't. You have misconceptions about everything. What is wrong with Zeno's Paradox, George?

In the paradox of Achilles and the Tortoise, Achilles is in a footrace with the tortoise. Achilles allows the tortoise a head start of 100 metres, for example. If we suppose that each racer starts running at some constant speed (one very fast and one very slow), then after some finite time, Achilles will have run 100 metres, bringing him to the tortoise's starting point. During this time, the tortoise has run a much shorter distance, say, 10 metres. It will then take Achilles some further time to run that distance, by which time the tortoise will have advanced farther; and then more time still to reach this third point, while the tortoise moves ahead. Thus, whenever Achilles reaches somewhere the tortoise has been, he still has farther to go. Therefore, because there are an infinite number of points Achilles must reach where the tortoise has already been, he can never overtake the tortoise.

I take back my taking back.

SO2 is produced in copious amounts by the 1,500 active volcanoes on earth's land surface.

It is also a constituent found in the combustion products of ALL fossil carbon fuels, presently produced in amounts many times more copious.

Being soluble in water, it mainly washes onto land or sea. On land it reduces forest productivity, in the ocean it increases acidity.

If it gets above the mid-stratosphere, where there is virtually NO water, it can migrate to the poles where, in conjunction with nitrogen dioxide, it can increase the ozone holes.

We don't want it there, George, but there's no point cooking up a myth that "they" are geo-engineering with it right now, because that is untrue. And that makes you a liar.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
It may be done everyday on this forum but the purpose of this forum, as I understand it, is to remove bunk. Using geoengineering as a reason for a lack of temp rise is bunk. There is no evidence to support this. Bunk removed.

In the attempt to remove Bunk . . . it is wise to address the existence of other possibilities . . . especially when those possibilities are on point . . . to dismiss out of hand the existence of an unexplained increased of SO2 in the stratosphere and the one potential method (the easiest and quickest) mankind could engineer such a change is IMO not the best strategy . . .
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
They don't. You have misconceptions about everything. What is wrong with Zeno's Paradox, George?

In the paradox of Achilles and the Tortoise, Achilles is in a footrace with the tortoise. Achilles allows the tortoise a head start of 100 metres, for example. If we suppose that each racer starts running at some constant speed (one very fast and one very slow), then after some finite time, Achilles will have run 100 metres, bringing him to the tortoise's starting point. During this time, the tortoise has run a much shorter distance, say, 10 metres. It will then take Achilles some further time to run that distance, by which time the tortoise will have advanced farther; and then more time still to reach this third point, while the tortoise moves ahead. Thus, whenever Achilles reaches somewhere the tortoise has been, he still has farther to go. Therefore, because there are an infinite number of points Achilles must reach where the tortoise has already been, he can never overtake the tortoise.

I take back my taking back.

SO2 is produced in copious amounts by the 1,500 active volcanoes on earth's land surface.

It is also a constituent found in the combustion of ALL fossil carbon fuels, presently produced in amounts many times more copious.

Being soluble in water, it mainly washes onto land or sea. On land it reduces forest productivity, in the ocean it increases acidity.

If it gets above the mid-stratosphere, where there is virtually NO water, it can migrate to the poles where, in conjunction with nitrogen dioxide, it can increase the ozone hole.

We don't want it there, George, but there's no point cooking up a myth that "they" are geo-engineering with it right now, because that is untrue. And that makes you a liar.
You don't want it there . . . I don't want it there . . . that is not the argument . . . the question is . . . does someone want to use a man made volcano to increase the albedo (negative radiative forcing) of the stratosphere . . .
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
In the attempt to remove Bunk . . . it is wise to address the existence of other possibilities . . . especially when those possibilities are on point . . . to dismiss out of hand the existence of an unexplained increased of SO2 in the stratosphere and the one potential method (the easiest and quickest) mankind could engineer such a change is IMO not the best strategy . . .

It is more likely caused by the types of things that science is currently discussing. By more likely I mean no evidence to support geoengineering. Do you ever notice when you type geoengineering the word gets flagged by the spellchecker?
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
It is more likely caused by the types of things that science is currently discussing. By more likely I mean no evidence to support geoengineering. Do you ever notice when you type geoengineering the word gets flagged by the spellchecker?
Yes, geoengineering is usually flagged . . . geo-engineering is, however, not . . . as far as I am concerned there is no direct evidence to support the amount of SO2 in the stratosphere is from biomass burning, fossil fuels, etc. . . . the only direct evidence is SO2 comes from volcanic eruptions . . . because the volcanic ash can be fingerprinted along with the accompanying increase of SO2 from known eruptions as in Mt Pinatubo . .
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Yes, geoengineering is usually flagged . . . geo-engineering is, however, not . . . as far as I am concerned there is no direct evidence to support the amount of SO2 in the stratosphere is from biomass burning, fossil fuels, etc. . . . the only direct evidence is SO2 comes from volcanic eruptions . . . because the volcanic ash can be fingerprinted along with the accompanying increase of SO2 from known eruptions as in Mt Pinatubo . .
Continued efforts to update the ability (because it is inadequate) to distinguish between man made and natural sulfur compounds is demonstrated by the following:
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
It is possible there are Vulcans living among us. There is no evidence to support this theory. The human activities you highlighted and put in red are described in the image below.

particlesfigure_300.jpg

And yet there is evidence of 'alien life' living amongst us which may or may not have originated or at come from another planet. In fact life as we know it could have originated elsewhere.
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
And yet there is evidence of 'alien life' living amongst us which may or may not have originated or at come from another planet. In fact life as we know it could have originated elsewhere.
I said Vulcans. Do you have any evidence or are you crawdading?
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Because there is NO EVIDENCE that any is happening.

Just because you are unaware, (I deliberately refrain from using debunker terminology such as 'ignorant' because i think although it is factually correct, it carries connotations) of evidence, does not mean it does not exist. Far from it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/apr/14/shadow-biosphere-alien-life-on-earth

Don't tell Jazzy about them because he may go and nuke them to stop them producing the extra carbon :)
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
My response was to geo engineering, not to alien life forms. Why did you think I was commenting on alien lifeforms?
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
Just because you are unaware does not mean it does not exist. Far from it.
Don't tell Jazzy about them because he may go and nuke them to stop them producing the extra carbon
Gibberish.

There is a finite amount of carbon on earth.

It is being neither created nor destroyed. It isn't being "given off".

It is not possible to "nuke" carbon away, except when exploding supernovae do it.

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe.

All mimsy were the borogroves, and the mome raths outgrabe.


The thing is Dodgson was a serious and accomplished writer, and put that in a book. Why don't you follow his example?
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
I don't know what crawdading is. However, what planet do Vulcans come from?
Crawdading is, I believe, coined by someone on this forum's daddy, as someone who when confronted with an obstacle backs up and tries to go around. My point is GB and I were in an exchange where he was trying to assert that geoengineering could have led to upper atmosphere aerosols. It was his belief and he did not want have any evidence. My point about Vulcans was to suggest that there is no evidence to prove they are not helping us cool the planet and that was not a good position. But you should know all that if you read the thread. If you would like to start a thread regarding alien encounters or any other thread not currently covered then start one.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Just because you are unaware, (I deliberately refrain from using debunker terminology such as 'ignorant' because i think although it is factually correct, it carries connotations) of evidence, does not mean it does not exist. Far from it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/apr/14/shadow-biosphere-alien-life-on-earth

Don't tell Jazzy about them because he may go and nuke them to stop them producing the extra carbon :)
I love it . . . pure speculation at its best . . . Me thinks geo-engineering at least has some serious computer modeling and SIMULATIONS :) accomplished to promote its speculative validity . . . (SIMULATIONS :) . . . the favorite method utilized by NIST to prove their most important theories and widely accepted without serious scientific debate . . . . except they don't share their data :) )
 

Alhazred The Sane

Senior Member.
Just because you are unaware, (I deliberately refrain from using debunker terminology such as 'ignorant' because i think although it is factually correct, it carries connotations) of evidence, does not mean it does not exist. Far from it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/apr/14/shadow-biosphere-alien-life-on-earth

Don't tell Jazzy about them because he may go and nuke them to stop them producing the extra carbon :)

But Doctor Cleveland is speculating there. She's a philosopher, according to the piece, and she's merely positing that microbial lifeforms we are unaware of might be responsible for something science hasn't yet explained. So saying "Just because you are unaware, of evidence, does not mean it does not exist. Far from it. " is hardly proving anything. Far from it.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
But Doctor Cleveland is speculating there. She's a philosopher, according to the piece, and she's merely positing that microbial lifeforms we are unaware of might be responsible for something science hasn't yet explained. So saying "Just because you are unaware, of evidence, does not mean it does not exist. Far from it. " is hardly proving anything. Far from it.
Hmmmm . . . so when does speculation become credible for inclusion in scientific debate. . . ? As when is NOAA allowed to SPECULATE on what has increased the Sulfur Aerosols in the stratosphere . . . ?
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Speculation would only have value if it was based on well documented scientific data. That's what separates speculation from science, data.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Speculation would only have value if it was based on well documented scientific data. That's what separates speculation from science, data.
NOAA admitted they had no data which explained the increase of SO2 in the stratosphere. . . that is why they were speculating . . .
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Puts this in perspective a bit.

 
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