9/11 - Did flight AA77 Hit The Pentagon?
- Thread starter Oxymoron
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One reason that the truthers will never go away is that they basically will not be satisfied with anything less than free and unfettered access to to all the data the the FBI, the CIA, and the White House have on 9/11 and any tangentially related topic. Of course they are not going to get it - either because it does not exist (demands for nano-thermite experiment results), or simply because it's classified, right or wrong. It's unfortunate, and I'm in favor of more openness in government, however that's the way the CIA works - they are not going to open their databases to the public - so there is always going to be some opacity that theorist can point to.
With these tapes, I imagine the reason they were not released it that they don't pertain to the case. Security footage showing nothing is the property of the person who recorded it, so it's not the FBI's to give.
Yeah, it would be great if we could have all those tapes digitized and on the web- but it really would not change anything, just one less thing of thousands for conspiracy theorists to talk about.
In fact it would probably just make things worse. You've see what happened with the Sandy Hook madness - people claiming family photos were photoshopped, and that the funerals were performed by actors. Im'm sure if they look hard enough they will find something suspicious in even a tape showing empty sky.
With these tapes, I imagine the reason they were not released it that they don't pertain to the case. Security footage showing nothing is the property of the person who recorded it, so it's not the FBI's to give.
Yeah, it would be great if we could have all those tapes digitized and on the web- but it really would not change anything, just one less thing of thousands for conspiracy theorists to talk about.
In fact it would probably just make things worse. You've see what happened with the Sandy Hook madness - people claiming family photos were photoshopped, and that the funerals were performed by actors. Im'm sure if they look hard enough they will find something suspicious in even a tape showing empty sky.
Billzilla
Active Member
But it's not.
An example is that at some point in the future a spacecraft will land somewhere near the Apollo landing sites on the Moon and photograph them from a distance, beaming that signal live back to Earth or where-ever.
There'll still be people that won't believe it.
You could fly them over the sites themselves and they still wouldn't believe it.
If I said what I really wanted to say, I'd get banned.
Yeah, unfortunately there's always going to be someone who thinks there still something hidden, no matter what you show them.
There's plenty of people (well, probably around 100 or so, but they are vocal) who actually think that planes did not hit the WTC, let along the Pentagon.
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/02/20/911-planesno-planes-and-video-fakery/
There's plenty of people (well, probably around 100 or so, but they are vocal) who actually think that planes did not hit the WTC, let along the Pentagon.
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/02/20/911-planesno-planes-and-video-fakery/
There really is no need of this tone Jazzy. I am not attacking you... merely commenting on your attacks on me.
I ask you, what sort of a CTist would I be if I did not visit the 'woo' sites as you call them. I do not call them woo sites, that does not preclude them from containing what may appear to be woo. If I find something I think may be woo, which I have often done, I will check it out to see if there is any substance in it. In short, I will attempt to debunk it myself.
However, oftentimes what I thought was woo is actually fact. Some of it is part fact and some supposition or extrapolation... it requires looking at the evidence dispassionately and often it is good to get an opposing viewpoint. This is why I post on this site. If you disprove something which is woo, I am pleased. There is nothing personal in it... merely a difference of opinion or a different viewpoint. I do not mean to be patronising but I feel we need to clear this up, it is generally known as free speech and free thinking.
To speak to me of 'spouting my ignorance over the corpses of other people', is IMO completely uncalled for.
There are many dead, that is true and I am not only referring to the official 3000 of 9/11, I am talking also about the millions of others who have died over political manoeuvrings and wars preceding and resulting from it. Many people are against the wars and we are entitled to be heard. We are not 'chips on the table', we do not have to have degrees or funny hand shakes to have opinions and expect to be taken into account. We will not shut up when we are told to just because the government or government sympathisers tell us to.
These people died, many more will die and it is only right that the truth of who killed them and why they died must be sought. So far there is a strong case that the Bush administration was either party to it or at least allowed it to happen with the apparent view that 'the ends justify the means'.
On a governmental scale, 3000 people are not that many. In previous wars 11,000 men have been sacrificed in a battle to take a completely worthless piece of land. At the end of the second world war thousands were lost in the last few hours taking land they could have walked into unopposed a few hours later. That is the way TPTB think when they have their grand plans.
To put it in perspective, 900,000 people go 'missing' every year in the U.S alone. That's 2500 per day. Add to that the accidents, natural deaths, murders etc, so yes I believe the Bush administration are certainly capable of being involved or worse.
I wouldn't call it 'zilch' if you showed from some independent source that it was unique to the RB211. I cannot locate such evidence.
You mention the holocaust but just look at that. People are imprisoned for pointing out the flaws in it and daring to question its accuracy. Is that what you want for all conspiracy theorists? Anyone who dares to question the official view should be killed or locked up or 're educated... is that what you actually want?
As far as 'hole in the pentagon' is concerned, I accept that it is bigger than stated in some instances but I do not accept it is as large as you suggest. I have modified your picture of the damage to show the actual hole through which an object could enter unobstructed by remaining pillars.
Tried to post pic twice but would not accept, will post separately
The actual 'gap' is only from yellow line to yellow line. How many feet do you estimate that to be?
Also there is debris in the form of giant spools, which I marked with red dots. I do not know where these originated but I assume they must have been moved there after the fire but if not they would have precluded any aircraft debris from entering at that point. Do you have any knowledge regarding these?
I surmise the blue highlight is where the tail went in.
Oxy, did you read the official Pentagon Performance report?
View attachment 1341
Particularly see pages 16 and 17
But I'd recommend reading the entire thing in depth. It really should clear things up.
View attachment 1341
Particularly see pages 16 and 17
But I'd recommend reading the entire thing in depth. It really should clear things up.
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Ok, so you basically just said absolutely nothing about building 7. What exactly was going on INSIDE the building that would cause it to collapse in pure symmetrical freefall? A few isolated office fires will not collapse a building in pure symmetrical free fall.
I don't recall Building 7 being hit by "high-speed and heavy aeroplanes".
wow a simple search disproves this ridiculous comment that there is no such thing as nano-thermite. Nano thermite can not be made naturally- you can't take the aluminum from the plane and iron oxide together to create it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3a0B4CAZVM
Yes I'm sure no one noticed it, especially the folks who provided security for the World Trade Center, a company called Securacom, whose principal, Marvin P. Bush was George Bush's younger. Total coincidence, nothing to see there.
Huh? the airplanes did not cause the collapse of the the buildings so it didn't really matter where the explosions were set in relation to the impact. Remember we are talking about BUILDING 7. NO AIRPLANE HIT BUILDING 7.
These responses are so ridiculous I am starting to wonder if this site is just pure cointelpro. Just confuse the average person with a large volume of ridiculous explanations and hope won't be able to tell truth from fiction.
Building 7 was a STEEL FRAMED SKYSCRAPER. 1700+ architects and engineers agree that the official story does not explain how that building collapsed. It was not HIT BY A PLANE. HOW THE HELL DID IT COLLAPSE?
Thanks for the good laugh by the way. This one will be a classic! Remember these 4 words about the big steel structure that was not hit by anything. It's not hard. Follow along:
BUILDING-7.
PURE.
Symmetrical.
FREE-FALL.
Billzilla
Active Member
I don't waste my time doing research for people that won't listen, do poor research, don't understand physics, and have already made their mind up. I can't see any reason to waste my time.
It's in an official report, you find it.
Correct, and I did not say nor infer that it was.
It's just regular thermite with very small particle sizes to maximise the surface area for the given volume. So, just regular thermite slightly more developed, nothing special at all.
So you're saying that someone was related to someone.
Amazing, do go on please, I think some of my family is like that as well.
Okay building 7 then. Your amazing powers of observation are correct in that no aeroplane hit building 7. However it was very badly damaged by debris from the other two towers smashing into it. There's photos of it with a huge hole in the side and if you look for them (not on woo-woo sites because they don't want you to see that) you will find them.
Do some research, you will see how the collapse mechanism occurred.
You will then ignore it and it'll somehow be my fault still.
Jazzy
Closed Account
Is foolish and glib, and untrue, calling in a mountain of unconnected material.
It answers nothing at all.
Jazzy
Closed Account
LOL
It's always woo.
It's necessary. You are voicing doubts before you have absorbed all the facts. That is pointless and socially dangerous.
Good. Instead you will not shut when you don't know what you're talking about, and a private citizen tells you that you are an arrogant and pompous prick. Didn't I?
That said, why don't you try it?
And you, of course, know.
Tut, tut. It's there. And the PTB are bad because you're too lazy to find evidence which might disprove this? LOL.
Why should I answer? You appear to know already what other people think.
I should care.
Read the report. Your assumptions are as usual, incorrect.
Neither the tail nor the wingtips penetrated the building.
Read the report.
scombrid
Senior Member.
Recently went to a public meeting about a lake in my region. Local residents were complaining that the aquatic plant management section was destroying the lake by using herbicide applications to control invasive exotic plants. They were claiming that the whole lake had been denuded of vegetation. Two or three days before the meeting the biologist that oversees those lakes had done over-flights and taken photographs showing a fairly robust assemblage of native submersed and emergent vegetation. Half the old rednecks in the audience told him flat to his face in the middle of his presentation that he was a liar and that the photographs were either faked or more than three years old.
scombrid
Senior Member.
Fantasy.
Actually Building 7 wasn't in the official 585 page 911 Commission Report. I can understand why, I mean there's nothing strange about a 47 story steel framed building, a football field away from the other two towers, collapsing at near gravity free fall speeds, after not being hit by an airplane in a matter of hours. Nothing worth noting in 585 pages.
Never in history has such large buildings nearly been cut in half by high-speed & heavy aeroplanes violently impacting them. as I have said many times in many places before, I am more surprised that they didn't collapse immediately. That would have been far less surprising that them taking an hour+ to fail.
Uh, yeah, you did infer that it was hit by a "high-speed and heavy Aeroplane"
Right, so this "regular" thermite that is not found OR created naturally in nature, is used to cut steel, and created in a military facility got there... how? From the thermite fairy? Or should I do some more "Research" and re-read the official stories?
Yes it's perfectly reasonable to ignore related parties in a crime. I mean, crimes are never related to people who know each other. Nothing to see here. Carry on.
I have looked for them and have not found them. A "huge hole" in one side of the building will not cause the entire footprint of the building to collapse in symmetry. Only part of the building should have collapsed if the damage was that bad (which they were not).
"Do some research" is the best you can do? You must have been the debate champion in highskrool.
Based on the number of mindless responses to this thread I have a suspicion that this is a cointelpro site. I just happened to have found this site and read some of the threads that were of interest to me but it is becoming clear to me that this is not a regular site full of people who are trying to figure out what is going on out there. Probably gov't agents acting as regular citizens to confuse the masses and demonize the truth seekers.
Grieves
Senior Member
Landru, note from the link you referenced:
The Doubletree footage had a view of the explosion upon impact. Why is this website implying it contained nothing? Why did the FBI apparently state it contained nothing in a sworn affidavit before a court of law? If the FBI misled a court on this issue, and 911myths is misleading their readers on this issue, is it wise to simply take their word on this issue?
Jazzy, Bill, before any discussions about what might have caused it's presence, are you acknowledging the presence of molten steel in the wreckage of the WTC buildings, or at least that the evidence available suggests it's presence was probable?
Chaps, it's not necessary to continually be pointing out the failing you perceive in the nature of others. It only leads to acrimony, which distracts from discussion.
Show, don't tell.
On track... the potential energy into molten steel discussion is interesting, but perhaps should be a different thread. I'll try to tidy this all up in a bit, split of sub-threads as needed. I like to make it so that if there's any useful discussion, it can be more easily found by future generations.
Show, don't tell.
On track... the potential energy into molten steel discussion is interesting, but perhaps should be a different thread. I'll try to tidy this all up in a bit, split of sub-threads as needed. I like to make it so that if there's any useful discussion, it can be more easily found by future generations.
HappyMonday
Moderator
*Facepalm*
Jazzy
Closed Account
Because there's nothing unusual about a long-frame steel building with 2-hour fire protection collapsing after a 7-hour fire. Caused, apparently, by being hit by WTC1 (everyone saw this!), which also "fell in its own footprint".
Didn't get there. Was primer and silver paint.
Without evidence. [...]
That the building was a bridge beam structure doesn't mean anything to you, does it?
So what is a bridge beam? What does structural instability mean?
Might as well demonize. [...]
This fellow likes to curse. Nevertheless his last question is mine also:
Which report are you referring to exactly? The 9/11 Commission report only had a few pages actually about the events on the WTC site. Here's the table of contents:
And you know there's a pretty good NIST report on WTC7.
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U
Unregistered
Guest
The Commission Report did not mention 7, not once. The Nist report failed to share its input data into its computer simulation on the ground that it 'might jeopardize public safety'. This failure negates any claim Nist might have to the concept of scientific openess - which is how science works - by sharing information so it can be reviewed by peers.
Lee, is that you?
U
Unregistered
Guest
Blimey! Thought you'd catch me quicker than that! Come on man, keep up! I felt compelled to have a butcher's and just couldn't help meself. Sorry.
How about a new year's amnesty! For the sake of intelligent argument....what do you say?
x
ps- I'll even really start a thread (my first ever) you might like - for less jousting and more discussion....
I'm a sucker for third chances. Go for it, lee h oswald is unbanned. You know the deal - polite and on topic please. No snark.
SR1419
Senior Member.
I suspect that it was simply viewed as ancillary to the main events of the day. It was collateral damage so-to-speak. It wasn't attacked, no one died in it. It was damaged, caught on fire and collapsed...they also didn't mention the other 40+ buildings that were damaged and/or caught fire from the collapse of of WTC 1&2.
Here is an interesting look at the fire in WTC 7- apologies if its been posted before.
[video]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d45_1320106542[/video]
There's a lot of good FOIA raw footage uploaded on this channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheMKMonarch/videos?query=wtc7
Here's a better quality version of the LiveLeak you posted:
One worth looking at is the video of the actual collapse, often the this is presented as evidence of demolition. But if you look at this, full screen, HD, you can see that the building interior collapsed several seconds before the exterior which then kind of folds a bit in before it collapses, just as NIST describes.
Those videos are part of the NIST FOIA 09-42 "Release 14" set found here:
http://911datasets.org/index.php/Main_Page
The full release 14 is nearly 1TB of uncompressed video, but there's also a compressed version at "only" 84GB. I'm going to download that for reference.
A lot of the videos are available in a near-original format here:
http://wtcdata.nist.gov/
Billzilla
Active Member
Bingo!
Unsurprisingly, Mick posts exactly what I was talking about. Isn't it amazing what you can find if you want to search for it?
The Doubletree footage did not show the impact site. You only see the part of the explosion.
The explanation and images showing the source documents that say that are on the website I posted. To state that the "FBI misled a court on this issue," is completely wrong.
Molten Steel and hotspot stuff moved to:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/1059-WTC-Molten-Steel-Was-there-any-Why-What-About-the-Hot-Spots
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/1059-WTC-Molten-Steel-Was-there-any-Why-What-About-the-Hot-Spots
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Coincidence after coincidence after coincidence... No video, no identifiable wreckage, no Arabic names
Not one of the planes alerted ground control that they were being hijacked... Shortly after climb-out to flight level, their transponders are de-activated...(they are no longer a blip on the radar screens)
The "pilot" Hani Hanjour didn't even have a ticket
And no black boxes.
http://www.911review.org/Wiki/Flight77BlackBoxes.shtml
Not one of the planes alerted ground control that they were being hijacked... Shortly after climb-out to flight level, their transponders are de-activated...(they are no longer a blip on the radar screens)
The "pilot" Hani Hanjour didn't even have a ticket
And no black boxes.
http://www.911review.org/Wiki/Flight77BlackBoxes.shtml
External Quote:On September 14, the DoDannounced that they had found the
Feb. 25, 2002 --FBI Director Robert Mueller said Flight 77's data recorder provided altitude, speed, headings and other information, but the voice recorder contained nothing useful.
FBI Director Robert Mueller said that the voice data recorder contained nothing useful, it would imply that there are no words of the hijackers on the tape, which would once again reinforce our feeling that there is no evidence of hijackers. We'd like to have a independent and reputable expert look at the originals - perhaps what they do or do not contain is useful. Because, as we shall see below, we are deeply suspicious of the FBI's withholding or burying all evidence related to Flight 77.
Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld said the data on the cockpit voice data recorder was unrecoverable.
If the cockpit voice data recorder was unrecoverable, it would be the first time in aviation history a solid-state data recorder (the type used on Flight 77) was unrecoverable after a crash. From a Scientific American feature article lauding the "Better Black Box" in theirSeptember 2000 issue:
Nearly 100,000 flight recorders have been installed in commercial aircraft over the past four decades. The prices of the latest models generally range from $10,000 to $20,000. Their survival rate has greatly improved in recent years as the FAA has raised the certification requirements. Although older recorders using magnetic tape were susceptible to fire damage, no solid-state device has been destroyed in an accident to date.
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Seems odd you would claim "no black boxes" and then link to an article explaining how the black boxes were found. Also:
You know all these things you keep bringing up have been debunked. Maybe the subject is new to you, but to avoid wasting our time why not at least look up the subject on Wikipedia, and then if still unsatisfied, explain why you think the debunking is incorrect. Like the ticket thing:
External Quote:
You know all these things you keep bringing up have been debunked. Maybe the subject is new to you, but to avoid wasting our time why not at least look up the subject on Wikipedia, and then if still unsatisfied, explain why you think the debunking is incorrect. Like the ticket thing:
Please don't Gish Gallop and then claim there's a weight of evidence. An avalanche of bunk does not provide a firm foundation.External Quote:
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MikeC
Closed Account
Not true - 1 frame is not much video, but it is not "no" video.
There is also no video of me typing this on the computer ....indeed there is no video anywhere where there is not a camera pointing at the right time. Not any sort of coincidence at all - just reality.
Proved wrong already - there is plenty of identifiable wreckage. Your continued refusal to acknowledge this fact is particularly damning of your inability to face reality.
Hani Hanjour, Nawaf al-Hazmi, Khalid al-Mihdha, Majed Moqed, Salem al-Hazmi
What is not "Arabic" about those names??
Wrong - radar coverage was retained on Flight 77 for 2 minutes after the transponder was turned off but was then lost to the Indianapolis centre (but the "blip" was still on the radar tapes).
At 9.32 Dulles centre picked up the "blip" that was Flight 77 and vectored a C-130 to intercept and identify it - which they did. The C-130 also reported that the 757 had crashed into the Pentagon.
He had a 1st class ticket for seat 1B purchased from Advance Travel Service in Totowa, N.J. as reported in hte NIST report and newspaper coverage.
External Quote:
Wrong as per the post above.
So you score 0.
Well perhaps you have a point Mick, but I thought I was supposed to be communicating with intelligent people who do not need every single t crossed, i dotted and apostrophe in exactly the right place.
Clearly, (to my mind), if someone were to post
and then express the view that it was suspicious there were 'no black boxes', I would understand with no difficulty at all that the poster was referring to the absence of useful black box data rather than the physical but useless entity itself.
Similarly, if someone were to complain there was no video footage of a major event which happened in a massively surveilled area, I would hardly expect someone to counter with 'that's a lie, there was one frame', when everyone knows that does not a video make, merely a photograph; which still diminishes not one jot the suspicious fact of the absence of video.
To me, it simply shows the mindset of people who are prepared to contest every aspect at such pedantic levels, apparently to score points. Whatever happened to 'concern for the truth'.
Ok, I would be very interested to hear your views on what process could account for the following event.
I must admit to being at a total loss to explain how 16 Inch Thick, Steel Cores can Melt/Vaporize before our very eyes.
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I think it's best to ALWAYS assume you audience needs thing speling out, in a nice polite way of course. It saves misunderstanding.
You see, you said "no black boxes", and then linked to an article explain how the black boxes were found and how data was recovered from the flight data recorder. It's a little hard to to extrapoloate "no black boxes" to "two black boxes were found, but only one had recoverable data".
Plus of course the article you linked to was incorrect about it being solid state (recording to chips). It was actually tape based.
But the truth is not semantics. The truth is not about if "black box" means "black box with recoverable data", or if "video" means "more than one frame of video". We should be seeking not to argue about semantics, but to accurately describe, and agree on a description, of what actually happened. Like now I think we agree what happened to the black boxes on flight 77? Would you still say that it's suspicious?
Ok, I would be very interested to hear your views on what process could account for the following event.
I must admit to being at a total loss to explain how 16 Inch Thick, Steel Cores can Melt/Vaporize before our very eyes.
It fell, leaving dust.
PLEASE STOP DOING THIS!!!! It's wasting time. Look things up.
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Ronald Wieck
New Member
aMick West is taking unfair advantage by invoking the Pentagon Building Performance Report. It is common knowledge that no conspiracy liar has ever attempted to read that document, or any other reality-based material.
When citing the "work" of the Pilots for Truth (I'd run out of scare quotes if I applied them wherever appropriate), let us bear in mind that Rob Balsamo suffered a massive breakdown and started posting as a woman after Warren Stutt decoded the final seconds of AA77's flight data recorder.
When citing the "work" of the Pilots for Truth (I'd run out of scare quotes if I applied them wherever appropriate), let us bear in mind that Rob Balsamo suffered a massive breakdown and started posting as a woman after Warren Stutt decoded the final seconds of AA77's flight data recorder.
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Ronald Wieck
New Member
Jim Fetzer, who currently peddles mini-nukes (that leave behind no ionizing radiation) in the towers, attempted to bamboozle the military historian J.R. Dunn. The result was not pretty:
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2006/09/the_911_pentagon_conspiracy_th.html
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2006/09/the_911_pentagon_conspiracy_th.html
Ronald Wieck
New Member
If you thought that Fetzer couldn't possibly be exposed more thoroughly, check out the Mother of All Ass Whuppings:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/09/the_911_pentagon_conspiracy_th.html
http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/09/the_911_pentagon_conspiracy_th.html
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