Gallbladder Flush Real or Fake

[dan theman]

Gallbladder Flush Real or Fake?

 

[Cairenn]

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/flushes.html

t seems likely that gallstones might occasionally be expelled. Small stones are regularly expelled from the gallbladder. There is some risk that stones over about 5mm in diameter will lodge in the bile duct, but most pass on into the bowel and out of the body unnoticed. Gallbladders may spontaneously empty themselves of small stones, but this is rare [9].

Also, the large oily meal would stimulate strong gallbladder contraction. This could help expel small gallstones or even, very rarely, a whole crop of small gallstones or sludge. Whether the whole ritual is needed is another matter. A meal of fried fish and chips, or the "whole fat milk and a Mars bar" sometimes used to stimulate gallbladder contraction during x-ray examinations might serve as well.

The magnesium sulphate (Epsom Salts) could have an added effect, as it also stimulates gallbladder contraction and relaxes the muscles controlling the release of bile into the intestines. However, it acts in the same way as would fat or oil, causing the release of cholecystokinin from the upper small intestine [10]. The availability of that hormone and the ability of the gallbladder to respond to it would be limiting factors. The chance of success is further diminished by the fact that patients with symptomatic gallstones often have impaired ability of the gallbladder to empty (a factor in gallstone formation), stones that are too big to pass, or a blocked gallbladder duct (the "non-functioning gallbladder" in contrast studies)

http://surgeonsblog.blogspot.com/2008/01/flush.html

Let's start with a gentle statement of fact: OF ALL THE BOGUS, DISHONEST, DISINGENUOUS AND STUPID BULLSHIT THAT MASQUERADES AS ALTERNATIVE MEDICAL METHODOLOGY, "GALLBLADDER FLUSH" IS AT THE TOP OF THE LIST. THE PURVEYORS OF IT ARE, AT BEST, CREDULOUS; AT WORST, THEY ARE CHARLATANS AND (LITERAL) SNAKE-OIL SALESMEN WHO WILLFULLY DECEIVE AND STEAL FROM THE SICK AND THE VULNERABLE, AND ARE TO BE COUNTED AMONG THE SCUM OF THE EARTH.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/would-you-like-a-liver-flush-with-that-colon-cleanse/

But on to the case report to which I refer that a group in New Zealand contributed to the Lancet:

A 40-year-old woman was referred to the outpatient clinic with a 3-month history of recurrent severe right hypochondrial pain after fatty food. [Note: Here "hypochondrial" means "below the ribcage,' not "hypochondriac."] Abdominal ultrasound showed multiple 1-2 mm gallstones in the gallbladder.

She had recently followed a "liver cleansing" regime on the advice of a herbalist. This regime consisted of free intake of apple and vegetable juice until 1800 h, but no food, followed by the consumption of 600 mL of olive oil and 300 mL of lemon juice over several hours. This activity resulted in the painless passage of multiple semisolid green "stones" per rectum in the early hours of the next morning. She collected them, stored them in the freezer, and presented them in the clinic.

Microscopic examination of our patient's stones revealed that they lacked any crystalline structure, melted to an oily green liquid after 10 min at 40°C, and contained no cholesterol, bilirubin, or calcium by established wet chemical methods. Traditional faecal fat extraction techniques indicated that the stones contained fatty acids that required acid hydrolysis to give free fatty acids before extraction into ether. These fatty acids accounted for 75% of the original material.

Experimentation revealed that mixing equal volumes of oleic acid (the major component of olive oil) and lemon juice produced several semi solid white balls after the addition of a small volume of a potassium hydroxide solution. On air drying at room temperature, these balls became quite solid and hard.

We conclude, therefore, that these green "stones" resulted from the action of gastric lipases on the simple and mixed triacylglycerols that make up olive oil, yielding long chain carboxylic acids (mainly oleic acid). This process was followed by saponification into large insoluble micelles of potassium carboxylates (lemon juice contains a high concentration of potassium) or "soap stones".

 

[Pete Tar]

So the same would be suggested as to the 'kidney stones' people report passing after taking a dose of olive oil and lemon juice, or is there no way the 'fat balls' could get into the bladder?

(and how could suggesting people drink lemon juice and olive oil be considered charlatanism, unless they are profiting from it some how? Those things are cheap. It's got to at least be somewhat nutritious if gross.)

Does lemon juice alkalize the kidney/bladder system?

 

[dan theman]

It was "claimed" that it was invented hundreds of years ago by the ancients (can't find any evidence for that anywhere). Anyone else have any luck?

Yeah it would be pretty gross to drink all that olive oil. I wouldn't fancy fishing through my poop either. Some seem quite obsessed with it.

 

[Cairenn]

I pointed out to a lady on Mother Jones today, that even '1000s of years of use', doesn't make something useful. She seems to prefer alternative medicine and it's anecdotal evidence to modern medicine with things like double and even triple blind studies and lab tests. I asked her if she thought that rhino horn and dried tiger paw and dried bear's livers were medicine. All of those have been used in traditional Chinese med for centuries.

 

[Pete Tar]

I pointed out to a lady on Mother Jones today, that even '1000s of years of use', doesn't make something useful. She seems to prefer alternative medicine and it's anecdotal evidence to modern medicine with things like double and even triple blind studies and lab tests. I asked her if she thought that rhino horn and dried tiger paw and dried bear's livers were medicine. All of those have been used in traditional Chinese med for centuries.

Don't you have a naturopath practising friend you can ask about this?
I am curious as to whether there's any mechanism for it to work in the case of kidney stones.

I suppose all the anecdotal evidence in favour of the treatment here http://www.earthclinic.com/CURES/olive-oil-lemon-juice-for-kidney-stones.html#LEMONOLIVE is suspect in that they were also drinking a lot of water and they were aware they had stones that were in the process of coming out (the fact they had pain) so it may be coincidental.
Still if there is a way the lemon and oil can affect the excretion from the kidneys then it may be working, and is preferable to the several thousand dollar + cost of the alternative.

 

[scombrid]

(and how could suggesting people drink lemon juice and olive oil be considered charlatanism, unless they are profiting from it some how?

Consult fees, books, pre-made concoctions. It's charlatnism because they are selling something an likely are doing harm either directly by the bogus remedies or by keeping people from actual treatment.

They aren't running all those websites for nothing.

It's got to at least be somewhat nutritious if gross.

One of the regimens listed said "'followed by the consumption of 600 mL of olive oil and 300 mL of lemon juice'". Over half a liter of olive oil? They're just giving themselves the shits. That's not nutritious. If done often enough it is going to cause problems because vitamins aren't going to be absorbed properly if someone is always crapping their brains out.

Still if there is a way the lemon and oil can affect the excretion from the kidneys then it may be working, and is preferable to the several thousand dollar + cost of the alternative.

If there is a way?

I think that it is up to the purveyors of the remedy to explain in detail the physiological mechanism through which the product works and then provide blinded controlled study results.

 

[David Fraser]

It all sounds like a very unusual way to make soap through saponification. There could be a business opportunity here I think. I might see if the Natural News is interested.

 

[Pete Tar]

...

One of the regimens listed said "'followed by the consumption of 600 mL of olive oil and 300 mL of lemon juice'". Over half a liter of olive oil? They're just giving themselves the shits. That's not nutritious. If done often enough it is going to cause problems because vitamins aren't going to be absorbed properly if someone is always crapping their brains out.

The one I read for kidney stones said 1 oz of each, or 60ml in all, so not that bad really.
But if a person was convinced of the need to use a large quantity, that would be rather unfortunate for them.

If there is a way?

I think that it is up to the purveyors of the remedy to explain in detail the physiological mechanism through which the product works and then provide blinded controlled study results.

That's true. It seems to tie into the 'alkalize your body' meme which is bunk as the bodies ph is not regulated via the stomach - but lemon juice does seem to break down to a more alkaline fluid in the body, and this assumably *would* have some impact on the excretory system as it changes the nature of what the kidneys are dealing with.

You should not believe that it matters whether foods are acidic or alkaline, because no foods change the acidity of anything in your body except your urine. Your stomach is so acidic that no food can change its acidity. Citrus fruits, vinegar, and vitamins such as ascorbic acid or folic acid do not change the acidity of your stomach or your bloodstream. An entire bottle of calcium pills or antacids would not change the acidity of your stomach for more than a few minutes.

All foods that leave your stomach are acidic. Then they enter your intestines where secretions from your pancreas neutralize the stomach acids. So no matter what you eat, the food in stomach is acidic and the food in the intestines is alkaline.

Dietary modification cannot change the acidity of any part of your body except your urine. Your bloodstream and organs control acidity in a very narrow range. Anything that changed acidity in your body would make you very sick and could even kill you. Promoters of these products claim that cancer cells cannot live in an alkaline environment and that is true, but neither can any of the other cells in your body.
...

Certain foods can leave end-products called ash that can make your urine acid or alkaline, but urine is the only body fluid that can have its acidity changed by food or supplements. ALKALINE-ASH FOODS include fresh fruit and raw vegetables. ACID-ASH FOODS include ALL ANIMAL PRODUCTS, whole grains, beans and other seeds. These foods can change the acidity of your urine, but that's irrelevant since your urine is contained in your bladder and does not affect the pH of any other part of your body.
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html

 

[dan theman]

Funny thing though, if it is fake, why are there so many people raving about how amazing it is...

 

[Landru]

Funny thing though, if it is fake, why are there so many people raving about how amazing it is...

The placebo effect is one possibility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_Effect#Mechanism_of_the_effect

Expectancy and conditioning
The placebo effect is related to the perceptions and expectations of the patient; if the substance is viewed as helpful, it can heal, but, if it is viewed as harmful, it can cause negative effects, which is known as the nocebo effect. In 1985, Irving Kirsch hypothesized that placebo effects are produced by the self-fulfilling effects of response expectancies, in which the belief that one will feel different leads a person to actually feel different.[38] According to this theory, the belief that one has received an active treatment can produce the subjective changes thought to be produced by the real treatment. Placebos can act similarly through classical conditioning, wherein a placebo and an actual stimulus are used simultaneously until the placebo is associated with the effect from the actual stimulus.[39] Both conditioning and expectations play a role in placebo effect,[40] and make different kinds of contribution. Conditioning has a longer-lasting effect,[41] and can affect earlier stages of information processing.[42] The expectancy effect can be enhanced through factors such as the enthusiasm of the doctor, differences in size and color of placebo pills, or the use of other interventions such as injections. In one study, the response to a placebo increased from 44% to 62% when the doctor treated them with "warmth, attention, and confidence."[43] Expectancy effects have been found to occur with a range of substances. Those that think that a treatment will work display a stronger placebo effect than those that do not, as evidenced by a study of acupuncture.[44][45]

 

[Cairenn]

If you are inclined to think it will help, the placebo effect will ensure that you think it does.

Even the cost of medicine can improve it's 'effect'.

http://freakonomics.com/2008/03/06/more-expense-less-pain/

 

[inquirer]

The one I read for kidney stones said 1 oz of each, or 60ml in all, so not that bad really.
But if a person was convinced of the need to use a large quantity, that would be rather unfortunate for them.



That's true. It seems to tie into the 'alkalize your body' meme which is bunk as the bodies ph is not regulated via the stomach - but lemon juice does seem to break down to a more alkaline fluid in the body, and this assumably *would* have some impact on the excretory system as it changes the nature of what the kidneys are dealing with.

You should not believe that it matters whether foods are acidic or alkaline, because no foods change the acidity of anything in your body except your urine. Your stomach is so acidic that no food can change its acidity. Citrus fruits, vinegar, and vitamins such as ascorbic acid or folic acid do not change the acidity of your stomach or your bloodstream. An entire bottle of calcium pills or antacids would not change the acidity of your stomach for more than a few minutes.

All foods that leave your stomach are acidic. Then they enter your intestines where secretions from your pancreas neutralize the stomach acids. So no matter what you eat, the food in stomach is acidic and the food in the intestines is alkaline.

Dietary modification cannot change the acidity of any part of your body except your urine. Your bloodstream and organs control acidity in a very narrow range. Anything that changed acidity in your body would make you very sick and could even kill you. Promoters of these products claim that cancer cells cannot live in an alkaline environment and that is true, but neither can any of the other cells in your body.
...

Certain foods can leave end-products called ash that can make your urine acid or alkaline, but urine is the only body fluid that can have its acidity changed by food or supplements. ALKALINE-ASH FOODS include fresh fruit and raw vegetables. ACID-ASH FOODS include ALL ANIMAL PRODUCTS, whole grains, beans and other seeds. These foods can change the acidity of your urine, but that's irrelevant since your urine is contained in your bladder and does not affect the pH of any other part of your body.
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html

Not to argue with you, because i know little about how the body works. But if something makes the urine more acid, than mustn't too much acid (say from a food) be getting into the bloodstream--that the body via the kidneys then needs to get rid of? it must be doing Something to change urine, i would think...So it would seem not all food is equally acidic/alkaline as it's absorbed from the intestines/stomach?...

 

[inquirer]

No offense guys, but the New Zealand report either has much relevance, or there's SOMETHiNG real going on with these flushes! The one i've heard about (sorry my "i" won't cap) (the amazing liver & gallbladder flush)... Produces dozen even hundreds of "stones" (my friend said the first time the size of lentils, the 2nd time some much bigger). i've been trying to research before i try because while i know it's true what she's saying, i'm wondering WHY and are they really "stones" or something the food is causing/creating (tart cherry juice for a week before, then epsom salts then olive oil (maybe lemon too i don't remember her mentioning that) She's a PT and i know her & her sister (same "testimony") pretty well no way are they making it up and they have nothing to gain, plus she says some patients have had same results...