I had a very similar reaction when I saw it was LV. Seemingly near impossible in real world terms. I've never seen it, or ever seen a video of it.
The Denbigh Lights UFO Analysis - Jan 2012 - [Likely sparking powerlines]
Anything electrical can spark, of course. I took a vape in to a hot tub by mistake once and it blew up in my pocket and I saw the spark from under the water. Was most embarrassing considering I'd had a few shandy's. But we're talking about LV cable in a 160a fuse that has a sustained multiple minute powerful arch across multiple points up to 45 meters, seen from 1.4 km away. The chances of which are lower than 1% imo.
John J.
Senior Member.
Nevertheless SP Energy Networks think it's possible, and fixed the problem. They were alerted by reports of sparking power lines.
Based on what? How have you assessed the visibility of any sparking? The power company documented reports of sparking low voltage power lines. I doubt they're involved in a cover-up
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Doing a bit of an experiment with the new buildings in Sitrec (I added a "ridgeline inset", just for this):
https://www.metabunk.org/sitrec/?cu...zonaws.com/1/Denbigh Redux/20251115_163736.js
Pretty much where we had it before, I think. Top of the path with the powerline, and right by the golf course. It's hard to be perfect, as there's imperfect elevation data, and estimates of building heights, and the camera position
https://www.metabunk.org/sitrec/?cu...zonaws.com/1/Denbigh Redux/20251115_163736.js
Pretty much where we had it before, I think. Top of the path with the powerline, and right by the golf course. It's hard to be perfect, as there's imperfect elevation data, and estimates of building heights, and the camera position
Chimneys, not 100%, busy today
https://www.metabunk.org/sitrec/?cu...om/1/Debnigh with Chumneys/20251115_175529.js
I'm having some trouble lining up this photo
https://www.metabunk.org/sitrec/?cu...om/1/Debnigh with Chumneys/20251115_175529.js
I'm having some trouble lining up this photo
FatPhil
Senior Member.
The arc travels through the dielectric - air. Ionised air has a lower resistance than non-ionised air (I seem to remember from ESD training that the effect can be many orders of magnitude, but of course the outside isn't a lab), and lightning conductors ionise air.
And the speed of the arc through the medium is not relevant.
Yes, Flarkey and I did this to death yesterday and the day before over on X. Several models all indicating near zero chance.Nevertheless SP Energy Networks think it's possible, and fixed the problem. They were alerted by reports of sparking power lines.
Based on what? How have you assessed the visibility of any sparking? The power company documented reports of sparking low voltage power lines. I doubt they're involved in a cover-up
Happy to stand corrected if you can find a single case in history and in any country where a low voltage line arches in multiple spots for a prolonged time as seen in this footage.
The energy company didn't think it was possible, or not think it was possible, they didn't comment on it. They just confirming they had a report some 7hrs after our event, somewhere within a 100 acre radius of some sparking and told us what they did to fix it. The rest is us all guessing.
Hey @Trailblazer - I don't agree with your arboreal-location here. Yes, the line of sight is correct but the prominent tree beside the tv aerial arent the ones at Coppi Farm. There is a better Streetview of the landscape not far from the witness location at a slightly higher elevation. <linky> - that lets us see that the prominent tree is beyond the line of scrub and bushes close to Coppi Farm. The farmbuildings (green roof) and the trees can be seen on the streetviews and confirm the relative positions.
Edit,. ^^^^^ typo, image top right should say 15th tee.
The prominent tree is on top of the ridgeline beside the 15th Tee of Denbigh Golf club. (Source).
The tree can be seen here, just in front of the 15th teebox.... (Source):
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You are quite correct. I didn't look far enough up the hill. I was confused as the tree looked much more than 500 metres away, so that explains it.
Totally different angle. My street view data relevant and looking up the hill, closest fit visually and your image is from 2023 and a different angle entirely.
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So you're dismissing this unidentified electrical phenomenon because you've never seen good evidence of it before? That's kind of ironic, coming from the host of a UFO Podcast
The LV overhead cables are quite sparsely located in that area:
Source: https://www.spenergynetworks.co.uk/pages/connectmore_interactive_map.aspx
The DNO website says it is 3-phase 230V. I would be rather miffed if you connected my kettle or toaster to a 3-phase supply.
The potential difference between 2 phases of 3-phase electrical supply can reach almost 400V - which is enough to cause bright sparking. Here's a video showing 400v sparking...
Source: https://youtube.com/shorts/l_pTWOyMGQg?si=4jL3dKHb6q-EMa_O
The angles all fit. Even the Street view up the hill intersects with the witness LOS at the location of the tree on the ridge line.
The trees are not at Coppi Farm. I've had another look and @flarkey is definitely right here. The trees are up on the skyline. Coppi Farm is hidden behind the houses from the video vantage point, much lower down.
The full view shows that the lights were nowhere near the farm, but up on the ridgeline near the golf course, another 1km or so beyond the farm, as we thought originally.
These are the trees, at the left, with the fields crossed by the power lines visible to the left and in front as viewed from the house.
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The propagation speed of an electrical arc is tens to hundreds of thousands of metres per second, while wind moves at only 5–20 m/s.
Because the leader forms orders of magnitude faster than the air can be displaced, wind simply cannot steer the arc, the path is determined almost entirely by the local electric-field gradient.
Ionised air does have lower resistance, but the ionisation channel exists for "microseconds" and collapses almost instantly. It does not drift far enough or persist long enough for wind to influence the lightning path. And if we use our case in question, that doesn't make sense does it?
Yes, because I'm an expert with electrical installation and armoured cable lol. But like you, I'm a layman with UFO identification.So you're dismissing this unidentified electrical phenomenon because you've never seen good evidence of it before? That's kind of ironic, coming from the host of a UFO Podcast
I'm saying my house and your house run of 230v. Standard stuff, kettles and TVs are connected.The LV overhead cables are quite sparsely located in that area:
Source: https://www.spenergynetworks.co.uk/pages/connectmore_interactive_map.aspx
The DNO website says it is 3-phase 230V. I would be rather miffed if you connected my kettle or toaster to a 3-phase supply.
What you've missed is 3 phase tend to have less current in each conductor than a single-phase system. You know, for longer cables than run out to a barn or workshop or somet.
My
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Mendel
Senior Member.
Please rewatch this video, explain why the arc starts at the bottom, and then moves upward at a "leisurely" speed, and vanishes.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-oqRBuw-hM&t=8
Yes, I said that in post #89 above - and in the annotated images. The view is not for lining up with the rooftops, it is from a position 130m SE of the Witness location (assuming we have that right) and 15ft higher. It gives a better view of the landscape and Coppi Farm becuse it is slightly elevated.
Streetview link
This is the difference in the Lines of Sight from the witness video and the images above. (assuming we have the witness location right?)
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The video you posted is a Jacob's ladder and the physics of that device does not apply to lightning leaders or flashover arcs.
A Jacob's ladder arc rises because the arc heats the air, the hot air becomes buoyant and convection lifts the arc slowly upward at about 1–3 m/s. The arc follows the rising "plume" because the electrodes are shaped so that the gap widens as it rises, causing the arc to extinguish at the top.
This is a thermal buoyancy effect, not an electric-field-driven propagation effect…what we're discussing here.
A lightning leader is veeeery different. Leader propagation occurs at tens to hundreds of thousands of metres per second and is driven entirely by the local electric-field gradients, not by "airflow". The ionisation channel in a leader lasts microseconds, collapses almost instantly, and does not drift with the wind.
So the Jacob's ladder arc in the video is not relevant as a counterexampl, it's a different phenomenon with completely different physics/timescales.
Mauro
Senior Member.
Yes, but we're talking of two different things. One thing is the propagation of the arc, between the wires which is as you say, very fast and barely influenced by the wind, if at all. But what matters here is how the position of the arc moves along the wire, which happens on a totally different timescale. It was already said that the wind can make wires oscillate, which means that the distance between the wires varies: the arc position moves along the wires, following the path where the minimum distance lies and where the discharge is more probable to happen.
230V~ is a rather mild voltage which is unlikely to arc in normal conditions, but during a thunderstorm there will be voltage surges on the lines (due to lightnings), which can easily reach thousands of volts even on low-voltage lines (ie. 230V~ insulation devices are commonly rated for pulse surges of 6kV). Add in air saturated with humidity and the wind swinging the cables, changing their distance, and arcing becomes quite possible.
Oh ok, so as it stands, the images you initially shared and agreed on and from the investigators at the time (that I agree on) are showing a likeness to "my" trees. And the images of rooftops 2 roads away from a different angle are identifying "your" trees are these new different angles?
No, not a likeness. A match. They are showing the same landscape, hills, buildings and trees in the distance around 1.5km away. Although they from slightly different positions (one street away) and elevations (15ft higher) they are looking towards the same direction at the same hill, wood and ridgeline near Denbigh. Do you not agree?
Mendel
Senior Member.
I agree we are not talking about lightning leaders.
It does seem similar to a flashover arc.
The arc moves with the air; the air is moved by convection. It would also move with the air if the air was moved by wind, as long as the length of the path remains short enough to be sustainable.
I don't think anyone discussed "electric-field-driven propagation".
Well...
Article: For example, in air, at a pressure of one atmosphere, the distance for minimal breakdown voltage is about 7.5 μm. The voltage required to arc this distance is 327 V, which is insufficient to ignite the arcs for gaps that are either wider or narrower.
A 230V RMS power supply has a peak voltage of 230V × sqrt(2)=325V.
This would not normally spark, unless there were fluctuations, or two separate phases touched, or e.g. a tree branch touches from a slightly different neutral potential. Ignition also depends on air pressure and humidity. I also don't know what happens when two wet wires touch, i.e. the initial current goes through water which ionizes—that could immediately ignite if I understand the phenomenon correctly.
Mauro, you're mixing two very different processes.
Where along a wire an arc might start (due to wind shifting the cable spacing) is not the same as how an arc propagates.
The electrical discharge itself propagates at tens to hundreds of thousands of metres per second and is governed by electric-field gradients, not by cable sway or wind... Changing the mechanical spacing of wires only changes where a fault might occur, it does not produce a slow moving or wind guided arc. Also 230v lines simply cannot create visible arcing in open air.
Air breakdown is ~3 million volts per metre. Even with surge conditions, LV lines only reach a few kV, which is why they do not arc in normal operation, storms, or otherwise. The 6kV surge rating of LV insulators is exactly because surges remain below that level.
The behaviour in the Jacob's ladder video is caused by buoyant hot air and requires 10–20 kV continuous supply. It is not comparable to LV distribution wiring, lightning, or arc leaders.
Gaspa
Senior Member.
The plasma in the arc, which creates a path of least resistance, is made up of ions, which are moved by the wind. So, in this sense, arcing is driven by wind direction.
If @UAPF isn't convinced, perhaps this visualisation in Google Earth will help.
The Coppi Farm conifers are down in a dip and not visible from the bedroom window. The golf course trees appear on the skyline from both the bedroom video location and from the Street View location a short distance away.
Gaspa, the plasma in an arc only exists for microseconds before it collapses and reforms.
In microseconds, air moved by wind travels only a few microns, far too small to shift the ionised channel.
That's why I'm so confident that those lights aren't from a LV cable 1.4km away. Just goes against everything I know. We can debate the location till we're blue in the face (not you, others) but that ain't no LV cable. Nagative, nada, nope.
Well whatever it is, it appears to follow the track at the top of the hill. If it's not sparking cables then it could be lights from pedestrians or vehicles following that track (perhaps to inspect damage).
Either way, there appears to be absolutely no reason to believe it is either (a) something up in the sky or (b) something unusual. Which makes the original description ("UFO") rather inaccurate.
Gaspa, the plasma in an arc only exists for microseconds before it collapses and reforms.
In microseconds, air moved by wind travels only a few microns, far too small to shift the ionised channel.
I appreciate you making your position clear, but I actually think we've all got the angles wrong.
I can't draw an accurate line on my phone at present due to limitations of mobile google earth, but I think this is actually the LOS. He describes it as "over the woods" which would match. And specifically in his interview with me (he's lived there all his life) "not over the golf club".
This is a photo from inside his bedroom.
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JMartJr
Senior Member.
I call your attention you videos I posted in Post 78 above, clearly showing electric arcs on power lines moving ar relatively sedate speeds along the lines.
I am not sure I am following your argument, but IF you are maintaining that this cannot happen, you are in error. If instead you agree that it happens but are arguing CAUSE, I'm not blessed with lots of electricity knowing so probably can't contribute to that.
I think the confusion is that you think I'm arguing a different point. You think I'm denying that arcs can travel along power lines. I'm not.
The cause of that movement is electrical geometry + wire spacing + faults in the hardware — NOT the arc "propagating through the air like a slow-moving lightning bolt. We were discussing environmental impact factors.
Aside from that, the videos you've posted appear to be medium, to high voltage distribution, almost certainly 7.2 kV – 34.5 kV. This is not relevant to 230V domestic lines, which absolutely cannot do this. They just don't have enough voltage to sustain an air arc or visible discharge like the ones in the video (or allegedly seen in the original Denbigh UFO video).
I'll give you an example LV power lines basically
230/400 V AC. HV power lines usually 11 kV. Extra HV (things like distribution and transmission more like 66kV-132kV
These lager-end ones will be what you're seeing in the crazy videos that look like lightning.
So that's the real problem that has to be overcome to blame/resolve the UFO on the "likely sparking power lines" argument as listed in the thread title.
Again it's definitely not likely..if a subject matter expert means anything to you? Confirmed by any of the AI you can ask and the lack of a single real-world example? Add to that there aren't any HV lines in your current LOS…why are we keeping that title?
The lights aren't "over the woods", we have already established that. They are to the left of the woods.
I already overlaid the video with the photo from his bedroom and showed that the lights were just to the left of that "golf club tree", in post 31:
That screengrab just shows one of the lights, which happens to be about as far right as they go.
Here I have done it with another frame of the video which shows a whole string of lights. Lining up using the street light and the house corner and door:
This is the result, overlaid on the photo from the bedroom window. The lights aren't "over the woods", they run in a line that follows the track and/or field in front of the golf course. Which (coincidentally or not) is also the line of the power lines.
Attachments
They're definitely over the woods. Check the location of the furthest light to the right.
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Your images are not remotely lined up there, so your red arrows are meaningless.
When you overlay them correctly you can see that the lights are to the left of the woods.
Incidentally it also looks like the video was taken from a slightly lower vantage point than the bedroom window photo. You can see the mismatch in this short comparison:
Initially I thought it was a problem with the aspect ratio that stopped the vertical alignment being correct when the features were aligned horizontally. There may be a small part of that but also the nearer house on the right appears higher in the video. At the end of the above clip I circled a window with the cursor. In the photo it is above the roof of the nearer house, but in the video it is cut off by the slope of the roof.
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@UAPF You've lined them up with the wrong chimney on the wrong house....
When you draw a line of sight from the bedroom window over the correct chimney it points to the tree beside the 15th tee at Denbigh Golf club.
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@Trailblazer I like your overlay. It suggests the lights were in a line running left to right, slightly below the top of the ridge and on this side of the hill.
It really allows us to narrow in on the possible UAP landing zone and see what could be there.....
I also wonder if @UAPF could elaborate on some points I raised earlier, namely:
1) What is the red horizontal line meant to indicate at 4:25 in the video? The horizon is not remotely level here so which part is this supposed to approximate?
2) AT 4:54, why is the arrow on the photograph pointing to the telegraph pole while the arrow on the video inset (supposedly showing the same object) is pointing at the street light?
I think the second point stems from the same confusion over which house is which, and which chimney is which. The same mix-up between the street light and the telegraph pole makes you think the lights are further right than they actually are, i.e. over the woods rather than to the left of them.
1) What is the red horizontal line meant to indicate at 4:25 in the video? The horizon is not remotely level here so which part is this supposed to approximate?
2) AT 4:54, why is the arrow on the photograph pointing to the telegraph pole while the arrow on the video inset (supposedly showing the same object) is pointing at the street light?
I think the second point stems from the same confusion over which house is which, and which chimney is which. The same mix-up between the street light and the telegraph pole makes you think the lights are further right than they actually are, i.e. over the woods rather than to the left of them.
Lets not forget that the hypothesised Overhead Lines are 230V three-phase not 230V domestic lines , assumed to supply power to the reservoir machinery and pumps. My 3-phase experience is limited to what I studied at university and some electrical supplies on aircraft, and only then in fully functioning states and not fault conditions such as this. But I do understand the difference between single and multi-phase supplies and the increased hazards associated with them.
https://www.businessenergydeals.co.uk/blog/three-phase-power/
This is what Google has to say about the dangers associated with 3-phase supplies....
So they can create "more severe arc flash events and damage, posing a greater risk of burns, explosions, and injury."
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