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  1. Jeffrey Orling

    Jeffrey Orling Active Member

    Again those seem to be at least partially below the plaza level. The e was no OOS flooring and the bracing in the long axis of the core appears to be different than it is where there is OOS flooring which had a belt girder surrounding the core. This appears also to be below the below the lowest express elevator. Perspective makes it hard to read elevation.
     
  2. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

  3. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    This one dated Oct 22, 2001 (9 days earlier than the above)
    2243251751-911-cleanup-effort.
    Source Flickr.
    Metabunk 2018-01-29 08-46-43.
    Shows what looks like a few more columns on the north end of the core extending higher than the Jacobs Oct 31 photo, suggesting they were cut between these two dates.

    Similar photo same day.
    Metabunk 2018-01-29 08-46-43.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
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  4. Nada Truther

    Nada Truther Active Member

    Are there any phoots of what it would look like if Thermite, Thermate, Micro-Thermite, or some other mysterious chemical had cut through this size column? Does AE have a test subject that they created using Therm. that looks as precise as this angle cut? It is interesting that Gage uses the jagged, uneven cut beam at the memorial in Manitoba to illustrate that it was not cut by a torch, but then says that this column ws, when it is clearly not jagged and uneven!

    Here is the link to the thread from Metabunk: "A&E911 analysis of slag residue...."
    Having trouble hyper linking....
    https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-a...ag-residue-from-wtc-debris.t9468/#post-218379
     
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  5. benthamitemetric

    benthamitemetric Active Member

    Here is above photo of the WTC1 rubble taken by Gregg Brown, who was recruited by FEMA to take aerial photos of ground zero from an NYPD helicopter for 9 months:

    [​IMG]

    Brown's exhibition website dates this photo to 9 am on October 7, 2001. It appears to have been taken from the west with one of the Brookfield Plaza buildings in the foreground on the left. It's hard to make out exactly, but I believe this photo shows that the column in question remained mostly buried at that time.

    Amazingly, the folks who retained Brown never had him sign an appropriate intellectual property rights assignment with respect to his photographs and, as a result, he retained the copyright to all 30,000 photographs he took at FEMA's behest. This was a colossal blunder to say the least and likely why there are so few of his aerial photos publicly available.

    EDIT: Just some notes to help people clarify the perspective. This photo is taken from an angle very similar to that of the photo Mick last posted above, except that in this photo the Brookfield Plaza building obscures the northern outside wall of WTC 1 and the remains of WTC 6. Those would be on the lefthand side if the photo were wider and the Brookfield building were not in the way. If you look at the piece of the outer wall of the tower that is visible and still standing (its a piece of the eastern wall of the tower in the top left of this photo), however, you can see that uniquely shaped piece is visible in Mick's photo as well:

    This photo:

    upload_2018-1-29_13-45-10.

    The last photo Mick posted:

    upload_2018-1-29_13-46-2.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  6. benthamitemetric

    benthamitemetric Active Member

    Just a tip to help hose searching for other rarely circulated photographs of ground zero, I've been reading through another incredible book, Watching the World Change: The Stories Behind the Images of 9/11 by David Friend, which documents the accounts of many witness to the attack and its aftermath, and it notes that the following photographers (in addition to Gregg Brown) were known to have access to ground zero in the weeks and months following the collapse:

    Joel Meyerowtitz (a world renowned photographer who used various connections in the Park's Department, NYPD and Mayor's office to gain access, as I noted in my post on the last page)

    Andrea Booher (who was employed or retained by FEMA)

    Sergeant Patrick Jennings (who worked for the National Guard according to Watching the World Change)

    Stephen Delory (I can't find any additional information on him, his photos, or for whom he took such photos)

    Gary Suson (who worked for the FDNY's main union and who apparently published a book of images of Ground Zero)

    Sacha Waldman (who is now an esteemed celebrity/commercial photographer but who also took several panorama shots of ground zero according to Watching the World Change)

    Overall, however, I have to say it's a bit disappointing that there hasn't been a concerted effort to collect and archive all of the photographs, at least so far as I can find.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  7. Jeffrey Orling

    Jeffrey Orling Active Member

    The technical accounts are of little interest to the public who accept that the planes were the root cause which let to the towers collapse and that unfought fires did in 7wtc. However for the historical record and for those who want to drill into the mechanics of the collapse all photos and witness reports as well as technical reports are important.

    The diagonal cut column which Jones pushed as being an example of therm*te or similar used for demolition has been debunked.... especially since, I believe this was an acknowledged technique use in the clean up period. [...]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2018
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  8. benthamitemetric

    benthamitemetric Active Member

    Some more digging for documentation of early ground zero led me to a website maintained by the NY National Guard. There are two videos (1 and 2) there that contain interviews with guardsmen at ground zero on September 20, 2001, when the recovery effort was still in its frantic infancy. Included in these videos is some incredible footage of the north tower rubble that really gives great context to just how huge the pile was in the area where AE911Truth alleges without basis that the angled column was precut.

    The movies are posted as wmv files and so can't be attached here directly. But here are some shots of scene from the second video:

    Camera zoomed in on the long line of people digging and searching at the foot of the pile of debris covering the column in question (which is on the right):

    upload_2018-1-30_20-39-2.

    Camera zooms out showing the height of the pile, which is easily 60+ ft tall, based on the size of the people at its base:

    upload_2018-1-30_20-41-30.

    The relative sizes are much easier to make out when watching the zoom in the video.

    I agree with Jeffery that AE911Truth's claim is thoroughly rebutted. They have not presented any evidence that the column in question was precut and we now know it was deeply buried in the rubble and out of sight immediately after the collapse, and it almost certainly was cut by iron workers during the course of debris removal.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  9. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    considering we have photos before they were cut (October 2001) .. I'd say that kinda verifies they were cut during clean up.
     
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  10. benthamitemetric

    benthamitemetric Active Member

    Agreed. But, to play devil's advocate, I'm sure AE911Truth would say that they believe the column was still precut and then buried. The issue with that claim isn't that it's impossible, but rather that there is simply no evidence for it (and ample evidence for the alternative theory given the photos and testimony documented in this thread, but let's put that aside for a second). If there were photos of the column cut immediately after the collapse at a time when it was unlikely that iron workers could have made the cut, then they'd have an inference against the cut being made by a iron worker. But since the column remained buried for at least a month, we know AE911Truth's photo cannot give rise to that inference. This directly contradicts the caption in the AE911Truth slide that states their photo of the angle cut was taken before iron workers were at ground zero and so we know that caption is patently false. AE911Truth is factually wrong on the timing of their photo without any doubt.

    AE911Truth also raises issues with the visible slag and the angle of the cut, but those have also been addressed in this thread.
     
  11. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    looking through apimages... it looks like those beams were cut down to the OP pic October 29th.

    I used search "world trade center" then dates from nov 5-oct 25th I think. Lots of focus on that area at those dates. see lots of beams being cut, firefighters spraying, firefighters finding their colleagues in the immediate area , etc. it all explains the oP pic quite well.

    little pics and im not sure we are allowed to post them. http://www.apimages.com/Search?quer...em=15&orderBy=Newest&searchMediaType=allmedia
     
  12. benthamitemetric

    benthamitemetric Active Member

    Agreed. There are some photos that seem to show larger column and beam assemblies at that location on 10/27 and 10/28, and then a number showing cut back columns in the area starting on 10/30 (though its hard to make out whether the diagonal cut column is there and cut as such from the low res, non-licensed preview photos). That's definitely a great way to photo hunt for across a tight time frame.

    AE911Truth obviously never took the time to do so and check its facts.

    Are there any other photos AE911Truth holds out as photographic evidence of the effects of thermite or explosives? We could probably debunk the lot in short order at this point. It's a pretty glaring hole in AE911Truth's theories if they cannot produce a single photo of the rubble that actually evinces the effects of their alleged controlled demolition. Over the last few days I realized I had previously just scratched the surface of the sheer number of ground zero photos and first hand accounts that exist. My library is about 15 books richer for the search.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
  13. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I think you can post the watermarked images you get with "download comp", or in the preview.

    You can get a higher resolution copy with the cheapest license for about $30, which allows you to display it on the internet for one day. Most of the AP images don't seem to exist anywhere else.
     
  14. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Matching up some more photos, this overhead view of the site was taken on September 23, 2001
    Metabunk 2018-01-31 09-45-06.

    Zooming in on the North Tower (WTC1)
    Metabunk 2018-01-31 09-43-56.

    We see what looks like the top of some columns, just to the east of the stairwell in the plan
    Metabunk 2018-01-31 09-47-11.

    Metabunk 2018-01-31 09-49-45.
    (FEMAphoto_WTC - 379.jpg)

    Which means that the angle cut is likely here - in this very rough match to the above photo.
    Metabunk 2018-01-31 09-52-13.

    That's column 504. @gerrycan told me he think's that's the angle cut column.
    Metabunk 2018-01-31 10-29-32.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
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  15. benthamitemetric

    benthamitemetric Active Member

    Alright, then this one is case closed as the following photo (previously posted by Mick) clearly shows the column was not yet cut at an earlier point in the recovery.

    InkedMetabunk 2018-01-28 21-53-39_LI_Moment.

    The top horizontal green line is the top of the second lobby window level.

    The bottom green line is the top of the first lobby window level (which is the floor).

    Mick already established that the angle cut column's top was roughly at the floor level.

    [​IMG]

    We can use Mick's diagram to see that column 504 was roughly in line with the 11th exterior column from the northeast corner of the building and we can count over to that column in the picture (long vertical green line) and then use the perspective to roughly trace it down to where it meets the floor level (short green line). If you then use the photo's perspective to roughly run a line at floor level (the blue line) to column 504 (extended by the lower yellow line), we can see clearly that the angle cut must have been made below an area of the column that was intact during the recovery (where the blue line meets the line yellow).
     
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  16. benthamitemetric

    benthamitemetric Active Member

    So I just received in the mail Joel Meyerowitz's seminal tome documenting the recovery, Aftermath. First, let me just say that this book is both enormous and voluminous, at 15" by 12" and several hundred pages. I cannot recommend enough that anyone who is interest in the subject of September 11 pick up a copy. It is a staggering collection of jaw dropping photos, including many multipage foldout panoramas. I've never seen anything comparable to this in terms of how well it documents the enormous scope of the rubble pile and the incredible efforts of the recovery workers. (I don't honestly know how controlled demolition beliefs could survive seeing so many clear shots of the rubble that offer absolutely zero evidence of controlled demolition devices and I hope some truthers do actually challenge themselves and read the book.)

    As a bonus, look what I found among the hundreds of photos (arrow added):

    IMG_4890.

    It's another incredibly clear view of column 504, which remains standing above the height to which it would later be shortened via the angle cut.
     
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  17. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    :) or....
    visual.JPG
     
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  18. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
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  19. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    The pic actually caught the very moment the upper part of the column is falling to the ground!

    Metabunk 2018-02-01 00-03-58. Metabunk 2018-02-01 00-04-26.


    Thanks to @deirdre for finding the better "before" photo.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
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  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    Isn't that (the column falling to the ground) actually the column immediately to the right of the famous one? Not that it makes any difference as they were clearly still joined together shortly beforehand!
     
  21. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It is, I though I'd matched it with the rust patterns. But they have similar rust.

    Still the comparison allows to match the base of the cut column to it's intact base.
     
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  22. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    Yes, the bent bit of crossbeam at the upper right is the giveaway, and the fact that it still seems to be attached (or nearly so) at the base).

    It doesn't make any difference to the debunking, though, as the "before" image shows that it was attached to the column in question by the crossbeam, which is photographed being cut on the same day, with the other column standing.

    This thread represents a truly amazing bit of sleuthing, by the way. From a single, undated, fairly close-cropped image of a column, to not only identify the column but to track down dated photos of it being cut down is very impressive!
     
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  23. aczlan

    aczlan Member

    Somewhat off topic, but I found that book (After 9-11: An Engineer's Work at the World Trade Center) at my local library and read it.
    It was (IMO) an interesting look into what it took to remove the remains of the buildings and the toll it took on the people who were working on the pile.

    Aaron Z
     
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  24. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    So presumably this partially hidden column:

    upload_2018-2-1_13-21-44.

    is the one actually being removed here?

    upload_2018-2-1_13-22-30.

    It looks as if the cut on that column was lower than on the angle-cut one we are talking about, which fits the positioning. That one seems to have been cut more straight across, though.
     
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  25. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    A team effort! Thanks everyone.

    It was aided by the use by several photographers of a vantage point directly to the South of WTC1, possibly on the south bridge

    Metabunk 2018-02-01 06-59-03.

    Once we'd identified the correct location I collected photos from this viewpoint, and stitched them together.
    Metabunk 2018-02-01 06-55-40.

    Metabunk 2018-02-01 07-04-47.

    The AP photos are only available as these comp images, and the majority are found nowhere else on the web as they are all rights managed. Much higher resolution images are available, for a cost. It's sad that such historical photos are essentially hidden away for decades to come.
     
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  26. Tomi

    Tomi Member

    Mr Szamboti, (@Tony Szamboti )

    Do you agree that the column shown by Ae911truth as evidence of CD was actually cut by the Recovery team?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 1, 2018
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  27. derrick06

    derrick06 Active Member

    I was always curious for the reasoning behind that claim. Good stuff Mick! (Haven't posted in a while hope you're all well!)
     
  28. Nada Truther

    Nada Truther Active Member

    Wow, you guys are all pretty amazing at all of this! I am just sitting here with my mouth open watching this research project unfold! A+

    I say this is debunked. The lack of Truthers chiming in is probably a pretty good sign that they have nothing to add.
     
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  29. @Tony Szamboti
    I join the question from Tomi and I would also like to read an answer from you about that. thanks in advance.
     
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  30. occams rusty scissor

    occams rusty scissor Active Member

    I have to find this book, I think. Every time I look at pics of the debris it never ceases to amaze me, the sheer scale of it all and the massive undertaking of restoring the area.

    9/11 was one of the reasons I came to this site, and this kind of resourceful use of open source pics and careful comparison of evidence is why I still come here. Top effort digging through all of that for a resolution!

    Back on topic - certainly the argument was put forward time and again that the column was cut during the rescue/cleanup stage? Have AE911 rebutted it in the past?
     
  31. occams rusty scissor

    occams rusty scissor Active Member

    Also, though maybe speculation on my part, if the cut were made prior to the building falling, it's not likely to show fresh, neat square edges around the cut. Some sort of deformation would occur to the edges if thousands of tons came down on it and around it.
    Another fair assumption would be that the hollow interior section of the column would be filled with debris, as the workers aren't likely to waste time cleaning out the interior of a column which is to be scrapped (if that is even possible).
     
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  32. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    And a few pages after that:
    IMG_2057.JPG

    Metabunk 2018-02-03 12-04-35.

    Background matches with the original photo.

    Metabunk 2018-02-03 12-11-06.

    Dated Oct 24, column still standing
    Metabunk 2018-02-03 12-19-48.

    So verified by photos from two independent sources.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
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  33. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I agree. There's stuff like closeups of the ends of giant core columns where you can see just how pitiful the partial penetration welds were in some places.

    Should be required reading before any debate.
     
  34. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    I would also have expected staunch AE911 supporters like @John85 to have spoken up by now.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
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  35. John85

    John85 Member

    I have seen references to columns cut like this in various materials, but my beliefs regarding the events of that day do not depend on them. This is a soft target for debunkers that doesn't deal with the most important evidence.
     
  36. Nada Truther

    Nada Truther Active Member

    And what evidence is that?
     
  37. FFTR

    FFTR New Member

    The thread was about a column that AE911T claimed was evidence of being cut pre collapse. It has been shown that AE911T position is not correct. The column was not pre cut by nanothermite or any other means.

    If it was not important why did AE911T and others use the column as an example of pre cutting for a controlled demolition?
     
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  38. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    If nothing else, it's watertight evidence that 'Truthers' have jumped to conclusions and presented misassumptions as hard and apparently convincing (to them) 'facts'.

    And if they're wrong about this, what else are they wrong about? That's the question I would be asking were I a 'believer'.

    It will also be interesting to see how they handle realising they've made a whopping error, and been called out on it. Or what people like this guy would now say:
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
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  39. Bruno D.

    Bruno D. Senior Member

    So, I assume you are saying that this thread convinced you that this particular piece of so called evidence for CD is not evidence of CD.

    Would I be correct to assume that if a fellow truther comes to metabunk and tries to argue that this diagonal cut is evidence for CD, you would help us explain to him that this is incorrect?
     
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  40. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    the real question is, will Truthers on OTHER forums be honest and explain the mistake when it is repeated.