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  1. inkwell

    inkwell New Member

    American Airlines Flight 77 is missing from the departure list leaving Washington Dulles Airport the morning of 9/11. This is referenced among conspiracy theorists asserting AA77 was a cover story for a missile or other aircraft hitting the Pentagon. Comparatively, United Airlines Flight 175 (plane that hit Tower 2) is listed in the departure results for that day. What reasonable explanation would there be for the missing data?

    upload_2017-12-8_13-29-27.

    Link where you can run a query for departures by airlines on 9/11/2001:
    https://www.transtats.bts.gov/ONTIME/Departures.aspx
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 8, 2017
  2. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Different airlines reacting differently to the events of the day. The information is airline reported.

    AA11 was also not recorded in that particular database.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    Doesn't the text at the top of the table explain this?

    "Airlines began reporting tarmac times for cancelled and diverted flights in October 2008. Tarmac times for cancelled or diverted flights operated prior to Oct. 1, 2008 are not available."

    I would have thought AA77 would be classed as a "cancelled or diverted flight", as it did not reach its destination.
     
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  4. The BTS statistics track completed and cancelled flights. The 911 Flights technically were neither.
     
  5. fmosm

    fmosm Member

    I looked into this quite a bit back in the late 2000's, it was for me one of the strongest pieces of suggestive evidence available at the time, I believe I have screen shots of each set of records for all four flights.

    Previously there were no recorded statistics for either flight 11 or flight 77 despite each flight being present on the sheet, however American Airlines did keep records for other planes that flew that morning. United Airlines kept records of absolutely everything, taxi time, take off time, flight duration, etc, and those can still be viewed.

    The AA entries, as you've pointed out, have now been purged from the statistics. The big question is, why? It's pointless debating over why AA didn't keep or publish the initial records, I think it's too late to make those kinds of assumptions as there could be many legitimate reasons that we'll just never know about, and I doubt they'd be open to answering questions on the matter. Perhaps since it was flight 77 that allegedly struck the Pentagon that made it a matter of national security, or some BS.

    However the purging of the statistics from the records is particularly interesting, because there is no urgent motive there to do that, especially considering every other AA flight after the hijacking is also blank. Perhaps it was to stop people pointing fingers at AA? If people are constantly suggesting AA had involvement in a false flag due their neglect of duties, when in reality they simply kept their records private, it kind of makes sense to purge them from the database.

    I don't know. It's disappointing that the records are gone, they were interesting to look at and were a key piece of suggestive evidence from official government records that gave the power to raise questions, now that power is gone. It is what it is I guess, it's not the first time important details and key pieces of evidence have been purged from the public domain.
     
  6. Keith Beachy

    Keith Beachy Active Member

    What was purged, where is the evidence, why is it important? If it was purge, then it once existed? This topic is not evidence for conspiracy theories.

    This kind of statistical data is not needed to prove 77 existed and hit the Pentagon. Radar data for 77 proves 77 took off and impacted the Pentagon. Radar was a small part of the evidence which proves it was 77 at the Pentagon, not alleged but proof positive. DNA from all but the small kid, and the debris from 77, including the FDR, inside and outside the Pentagon. The explanation in the post above are rational reason, but not needed to prove it was 77.

    For this specific OP item, it was already in the original post, the answer why 77 did not show up.
    "Tarmac times for cancelled or diverted flights operated prior to Oct. 1, 2008 are not available"
    Flight 77 was diverted due to crime. It was not purged.
     
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  7. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    I'm having a hard time following what you are saying. Are you trying to comment on the info in this link, which seems to say that what you are saying is backwards. http://www.serendipity.li/wot/aa_flts/aa_flts.htm


    So they weren't purged.
     
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  8. fmosm

    fmosm Member

    The National Bureau of Transportation Statistics held and holds records of all flights that had and have travelled in the US. Those records used to include AA flight 11, AA flight 77, UA flight 93 and UA flight 175 dated 9/11/01.

    Previously to recent date all records for all four flights were available to view on the NBTS, however both sets of AA flight statistics were never available despite flight 11 and flight 77 being logged and recorded in the list of flights scheduled that day, and this information (or lack there of) was available for many years.

    Iirc that Oct. 2008 message regarding cancelled or diverted flights was there even when I was looking at the old records. None of the flights were cancelled or officially diverted, all four took off the runway, were hijacked and used for crime. All flights in the database that were officially cancelled after the hijacking are all still there logged in the records, minus statistical information that never came to be.

    The records for both of the two UA flights are still there in the list of flights scheduled for 9/11/01 and you can see exactly what those planes did, as explained above. The records for the two AA flights that day however are gone, purged from the public database, you will not find flight 11 or flight 77 on the list of flights dated 9/11/01, you will however still find flight 93 and flight 175.

    So the omission of flight data previous to Oct. 2008 has nothing to do with the hijacked planes. Perhaps this info is relatively new to you and you did not see the old records? I do have screen shots somewhere but it might take me a while to dig them up so you'll just have to trust that I wouldn't mislead you on what I'm saying. My old screen shots might still be online somewhere so if I find them I'll link them.

    In regards to flight 77, I have no substantial info to detail that the plane struck the Pentagon, so the most I can say is allegedly. That's not a denial of the evidence, just a limitation in what I can say about that particular flight, since it's not one that interested me much like flight 93. The NBTS information is not necessary in proving that flight 77 struck the Pentagon, but it might be the key in explaining why AA never published the statistics about their flights, since flight 77 struck one of the biggest and most secure intelligence buildings in America.
     
  9. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    No they weren't.
     
  10. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    That's not how it works here. If you want to claim something related to the topic, then link it and screenshot it. The topic here is quite narrow. AA77, please don't go off on tangents.
     
  11. fmosm

    fmosm Member

    OK I've got you.

    The original question was "what might account for the missing data?" So I was providing context to what has happened on the NBTS website over the past however many years since the information was purged. That hopefully would provide insight into the explanation of the missing data. But you would like a reference, so I've done my best to find one.

    This video is not mine. Please ignore the title, and please watch on mute to save your ears from the untasteful music in the background.


    Source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mHhgWaIoFsc


    So this video displays screen shots from the old records from NBTS in contrary to the OP where flight 77 is present on the departure list, and as I've previously mentioned even though the flight is there it's flight statistics are not available. I think sufficient explanations to the OP's question have been given, this just hopefully provides greater context and elaborates on the subject of missing data.

    I can verify that the screen shots are not forgeries and are identical to what was publically available at the time, however these records are now purged from the government website so we have to rely on a 3rd party as a reference. I have original screen shots that I've taken my self but that was like a decade ago, so until I find mine or find something better should this not be sufficient enough, which I'll keep trying, this is the best I can provide.
     
  12. Keith Beachy

    Keith Beachy Active Member

    BTS is a leading source of timely, accurate, and reliable information on the U.S. transportation systems used for moving people and goods, and on their impacts on the economy, society and the environment. 11, 175, 93, and 77 are not exactly useful data for this BTS database - more like FBI stuff, crime.

    19 terrorists crashing four plane on 9/11 is a crime, not about "moving people and goods, and on their impacts on the economy, society and the environment" which is what the database is about. 19 terrorists were about killing people, not moving them. Why does info on 11, 175, 93, and 77 need to be saved when it is not related to the purpose of the data collection.

    I am not new to this, I flew the day after 9/11 (USAF), and have the FDR readouts for 77 and 93, and raw Radar data, and over 37GB of 9/11 information. Pilot since 1973, thousands of hours in heavy jets.

    As trained aircraft accident investigator, would not use BTS data as evidence for takeoff time, or landing times. Evidence is tower logs, FAA Radar tapes, FDR, ATC tapes. We ordered Radar data when we investigate accidents/incidents in the USAF. The data in 1995 came as computer pages with the data requested.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
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  13. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    could you possibly find a more annoying video? :)
    there are only 4 screen shots in that video of any significance. but you make me suffer through 2 minutes of that??
    Please read MB's Link Policy
    https://www.metabunk.org/metabunks-link-policy.t5158/

    I see what you are saying now.

    1. Archives of bts 9/11 data archived November 2003 show AA11 and AA77 not even listed.
    2. Archive screenshots from your video (undated) show AA11 and AA77 listed with repeatable daily info intact but no "departure time" or "plane number".* but wayback machine shows this was the case in at least sometime prior to 1/26/2006 https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.serendipity.li/wot/aa_flts/aa_flts.htm
    upload_2018-7-16_23-36-12.



    3. Current BTS searches {OP:Opening thread post] do not have AA11 or AA77 listed at all. But we don't know the date that this changed.



    I'm thinking, just like in the 'Sandy Hook was a closed school' situation, it is a matter of change of website and probably software being used.


    You can see in the #2 screenshot I posted here above, the only information listed is daily information, which likely was 'hard-written' into AAs computer system. (I'm not sure a better way to say that.. ie. fields you don't ever change)
    Here are the previous 3 days, they all say LAX 8:10 departure time.
    98.PNG

    99.PNG

    910.PNG



    When I tried to check the link with the flights AA11 and AA77 listed to the #2 data in my Truther link in the Wayback Machine, I got. https://web.archive.org/web/*/http:...tics/OAI_B1.PL?DetSta=DepSta&FirLevSel=DetSta
    upload_2018-7-16_23-42-3.





    the 2004 jump there connects to bts.
    the 2013 jumps link/redirect to something called "rita.gov" https://web.archive.org/web/2013032...tics/OAI_B1.PL?DetSta=DepSta&FirLevSel=DetSta
    upload_2018-7-16_23-44-11.


    So it appears "bts" moved its data to another web address. And like I said, this new site possibly used different data or didn't know it was supposed to manually remove the AA11 and AA7 flights (because it's super morbid that the UA flights are listed).

    when you type "rita.dot.gov" now, it takes you to this page with is also full of FAA data https://www.transportation.gov/research-technology

    Perhaps the AA77 and AA11 flight info is still on there somewhere? I tried a few airport statistic links, but it's too confusing to me.

    Hope I wrote this in a somewhat followable fashion.


    edit add: oh and the current BTS site is https://www.transtats.bts.gov/ONTIME/Departures.aspx
    the wayback machine only has it listed back to 2016, but it could have changed earlier and wayback just didn't record it.
    https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://www.transtats.bts.gov/ONTIME/Departures.aspx
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
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