A great book. I have used it in class for the last eight years.Rob Brotherton's 2015 book Suspicious Minds: Why We Believe Conspiracy Theories is one that hasn't yet come up in this thread but is worth checking out for anyone looking for something by an academic psychologist written in a fairly pop-science, colloquial fashion (shot through with dry, Irish humour).
His findings are delivered in somewhat of a "There but for the grace of God goes anyone" framing, making the case that conspiracy thinking isn't a different type of thinking from "normal" thinking, it's more like "normal" thinking which has been misdirected/extremified by emotional drives, and that said emotional drives are much less simple to understand/explain than they might seem.
I read it around the same time as I read Escaping the Rabbit Hole and found it a fairly good companion work - both books suggesting, in different ways, the worth of approaching a person who has been seduced by a grand conspiracy (or three) with a healthy degree of respect.
Meanwhile, here's a non-standard take that I do not consider to be at all convincing, but for obvious reasons I wish were true...a standard work on the construction methods for the pyramids, whose thesis I consider to be the most convincing.
Meanwhile, here's a non-standard take that I do not consider to be at all convincing, but for obvious reasons I wish were true...
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There's a book, which is on my "to read" list,but the list is long so don't know when I'll get to it...
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The blurb also makes her sound very inspirational:External Quote:
It's an unforgettable sight: innovation expert Maureen Clemmons can lift and "fly" massive objects, including five-ton stones, with little more than a steady wind and a good kite.
...and open up a dangerous opportunity to try lifting a sixteen-ton, twenty-five-foot-tall megalith as the History Channel's documentary cameras roll.
But it also invokes the Galileo excuse:External Quote:
Buoyed by grassroots support and determined to show her children that science is for everyone, she launches into a series of stunning, block-heaving experiments that draw national news coverage.
Clemmons' unrelenting efforts not only advance a simple "Eureka!" moment to the halls of academia but prove an important point: you don't need a degree, just an inspired idea and some passion, to be a good scientist.
https://www.amazon.com/Soaring-Stones-Kite-Powered-Approach-Building/External Quote:
But did the ancient Egyptians do the same thing when hoisting immense obelisks and pyramid stones? Egyptologists say no. Clemmons, backed by a decade of field tests and a Caltech aeronautics team, isn't so certain—especially when she learns the Egyptologists will not consider evidence from anyone outside their insular field.
Considering how many laborious man-hours it took to cut a stone, it seems unlikely that they would risk its safety to a technique that could easily send it crashing down with such a simple and unpredictable thing as the wind suddenly dropping.Seriously? I know you love your kites, but really? Are they insinuating that something like your diagram would actually work?
It's a serious proposal, I do not think it would work with anything that could be built before the invention of ripstop nylon and extremely strong fibers for rope. But as I said, I have not read their book yet, perhaps they can make a case. My main objection, though, is "Where are the carved and painted illustrations of the technique? We have representations of the "line up a zillion guys to pull on ropes and have one or two guys to poor fat or water or something in front of the big rock" method...Seriously? I know you love your kites, but really? Are they insinuating that something like your diagram would actually work?
I'd have to go ask some questions, a kite genius in NZ did some experiments on that at one point, and the answer was "an impressively large amount" but I don't recall the specifics of how big a kite (designed for maximum lift) and how big a weight was lifted.You know better than anyone JMart, how much could a large kite actually lift in terms of weight?
Assume the obelisk weighs 100 tons (some are heavier).Meanwhile, here's a non-standard take that I do not consider to be at all convincing, but for obvious reasons I wish were true...
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And that is probably more than enough about THAT! If I get a definitive reply on what was ultimately lifted in the experiment, and with what sized kite, I'll share that.
If the Egyptians had kites of more than kids toys size, or they used them for something adults would be interested in, I would expect them to be depicted on monuments and tomb paintings. They would be something you could put on ceilings and the upper sections of wall paintings, if only to fill in the space.It's a serious proposal, I do not think it would work with anything that could be built before the invention of ripstop nylon and extremely strong fibers for rope. But as I said, I have not read their book yet, perhaps they can make a case. My main objection, though, is "Where are the carved and painted illustrations of the technique? We have representations of the "line up a zillion guys to pull on ropes and have one or two guys to poor fat or water or something in front of the big rock" method...
I'd have to go ask some questions, a kite genius in NZ did some experiments on that at one point, and the answer was "an impressively large amount" but I don't recall the specifics of how big a kite (designed for maximum lift) and how big a weight was lifted.
But for most folks, what we want is a large kite that will NOT lift too much, as we don't want to get lofted (it is a way to get injured or killed when you fall back down!) and we don't want to have to use excessively big anchors -- so big kites are mostly engineered to minimize lift and drag, down to where they are reasonably safe to fly. Even with that, when flying what was then in a three-way tie for "world's biggest kite," I had my Chevy Astro van tied in to a stabilizing line, not the line getting the main pull (that was tied into a dump truck)and it slid the van across the ground like it was nothing when the wind shifted (so drag rather than lift, but then this kite was engineered to be massively underpowered for its size.) I've been lofted once by a stack of just normal large kites and was lucky enough to lose my grip or reflexively let go before I was more than about 7 or 8 feet off the ground. I was present when a friend was fooling around with a very large kite for the media, got careless, and went up maybe 15-20 feet before falling to the sand. Fortunately he was not seriously injured, but he spent the rest of the festival in a wheelchair with a busted knee, on some apparently quite enjoyable pain meds...
I'll reach out to Peter and see if I can get data on the lifting experiments they did.
Remember that ancient Egypt had professional mathematicians: because the annual flood of the Nile would deposit fertile mud on the fields, geometers would need to measure and reallocate the land as the landmarks were covered up or washed away.As a proof of what human ingenuity can achieve, here a man, after showing how to move heavy items aroud, lifts a 9 ton (19200 punds) concrete pillar one meter off the ground, all alone and using only pieces of wood and rocks as tools, no ropes, no pulleys. Then he sets it vertically in a hole in the ground using just a rope as a restraint (I'm not saying this is what ancient Egyptians did, just that it's astonishing what just a single man can do).
As a proof of what human ingenuity can achieve, here a man, after showing how to move heavy items aroud, lifts a 9 ton (19200 punds) concrete pillar one meter off the ground, all alone and using only pieces of wood and rocks as tools, no ropes, no pulleys.
Not dissing on engineers, they're very important, but sometimes it's the guy out in the field tasked with actually moving or stacking the blocks, that works out an often elegant solution.
I agree.Remember that ancient Egypt had professional mathematicians: because the annual flood of the Nile would deposit fertile mud on the fields, geometers would need to measure and reallocate the land as the landmarks were covered up or washed away.
Now it is well within the scope of the skills of these people to realize:
• the upright obelisk has a center of gravity (CoG) at a certain height
• we can raise a lying obelisk to that height
• if we slide that obelisk down a curved ramp that preserves the height of the CoG, we have eliminated gravitational pull
If this works as I imagine, it'd be easy to get this confirmed on a small model. In that case (and as the guy in the video demonstrates), an obelisk could be raised with relatively small forces—no lifting harness, pulleys or kites would be needed.
I see evidence for a water treatment system, up until the underground pipe leading into the pyramid. I can't judge how well it holds up.In a nut shell, he proposes that the builders of Djoser's pyramid, first built a dam nearby to create a lake when it rained a lot. The water contained in the dam then went through a water treatment system to clean and de-silt it so it could then be channeled to the construction site, then under the base of the pyramid where huge granite stone doors could be opened allowing the water to rush into a central shaft. A wooden raft, controlled through a rope and pully system could then be loaded with material and then be pushed up "volcano style" on the column of water to the next highest section where the material could then be off loaded.
Wirsching (he was a naval architect) breaks it down into several sections: processing and transport from the quarry, then the thesis on shipbuilding (the obelisk is suspended between rafts linked together, utilizing the carrying capacity of the water and keeping the center of gravity low), and loading. It should be noted that Wirsching places the time frame in the flood phase of the Nile, which also puts the work of lifting into perspective. The dry transport from the quarry to the ship is carried out using a step-by-step "rowing" technique with levers.@Nemon what does Wirsching think how it was done?
Hydraulic lifts in an arid region would either be constrained to flood-season activity only, or use of a pump system to recycle the water, wouldn't it? I think if a civilization could construct and move the "huge granite stone doors", then surely it could construct a pyramid without the whole hydraulic system.The water contained in the dam then went through a water treatment system to clean and de-silt it so it could then be channeled to the construction site, then under the base of the pyramid where huge granite stone doors could be opened allowing the water to rush into a central shaft. A wooden raft, controlled through a rope and pully system could then be loaded with material and then be pushed up "volcano style" on the column of water to the next highest section where the material could then be off loaded.
To prevent the underground pipe from clogging up.I'm not sure why a "water treatment system" would be needed.
But the dam itself would do that, simply providing a settling basin, wouldn't it?To prevent the underground pipe from clogging up.
Yes. As I understood it, their "treatment system" is a series of settling basins.But the dam itself would do that, simply providing a settling basin, wouldn't it?
To a point. In a windy dusty desert, fine dust blows around and gets into everything. Your settling basin will be perpetually replenished with fresh dust sediment that needs to settle, unless you put some sort of cover on it.But the dam itself would do that, simply providing a settling basin, wouldn't it?
There's a nearby dam that they want to take out, but first have to figure out a safe way to dispose of a century's worth of sediment behind it, some of it hazardous.Yes. As I understood it, their "treatment system" is a series of settling basins.
Hydraulic lifts in an arid region would either be constrained to flood-season activity only, or use of a pump system to recycle the water, wouldn't it? I think if a civilization could construct and move the "huge granite stone doors", then surely it could construct a pyramid without the whole hydraulic system.
I'm not sure why a "water treatment system" would be needed.![]()
this is not exactly an authoritative source, but...They mention "pipes" being found in recent excavations, which to me suggests steel or reinforced concrete pipes, but I suspect what they found were simply tunnels through rock.
Article: Many of the earliest plumbing systems were made with clay sewer pipes. The first known example of clay pipes dates back to 4000 BCE.
Although the overall spread of aridity and desertification led to various populations orienting themselves increasingly towards the Nile and the establishment of the Pharaonic dynasties from ~5,000 BC - and the power structures were closely linked to agriculture - it is difficult to determine from the current state of research where and when exactly a sandy desert already existed in the period that includes the construction of the Great Pyramids. There are some indications that the region was considerably more humid, even later, and that we must assume that it was more of a savannah landscape. Evidence for this can be found in the findings concerning animal populations, but also cults that were associated with them. Yet it is very difficult to determine this more precisely because there may have been significant regional and temporary fluctuations in the climate.In a windy dusty desert, fine dust blows around and gets into everything.
...this is:this is not exactly an authoritative source, but...
Article: The Historical Development of Sewers Worldwide
by Giovanni De Feo et al., Sustainability 2014, 6(6), 3936-3974; https://doi.org/10.3390/su6063936
4. Ancient Egyptians (ca. 2000–500 BC)
The Early Dynastic Period is a period of some 5000 years or more, the beginning of which is conventionally considered as the history of Ancient Egypt. A very important change that marks this period is the rise of urbanism. [..] Finer houses had bathrooms and toilet seats made of limestone. [..] Certain homes of aristocrats had copper pipes that carried hot and cold water. [..]
At the same time, ancient Egyptians were early developers of pipes. In the beginning, of course, their pipes and fittings were very crude. Like the Mesopotamians, they used clay pipe made from a combination of straw and clay. First it was dried in the sun, and then baked in ovens. As they improved, they worked deposits of the lead ore galena at Gebel Rosas to make net sinkers and plumb bobs. They were also early developers of Copper and the techniques of making copper alloys. Copper was the most important metal for tool making in ancient Egypt and was smelted in furnaces from malachite ore mined in the Sinai [33].
Copper pipes were used to build elaborate bathrooms inside the pyramids and intricate irrigation and sewages systems (2500 BC). According to their religion, to die was simply to pass from one state of life to another. If the living required food, clothing and other requirements of daily life, so did the dead. Thus, it's not surprising that archaeologists have discovered bathrooms in some tombs.
Excavators of the mortuary temple of King Suhura at Abusir discovered niches in the walls and remnants of stone basins. These were furnished with metal fittings for use as lavatories. The outlet of the basin is closed with a lead stopper attached to a chain and a bronze ring. The basin emptied through a copper pipe to a trough below. The pipe was made of 2.5/40 cm beaten copper to a diameter of a little less than 5 cm. A lap joint seam hammered it tight. Also, found within a pyramid temple built by King Tutankhamen's father-in-law at Abusir, was a brass drain pipe running from the upper temple along the connecting masonry causeway to the outer temple on the river.
Excavators have discovered a tomb which supposedly contains the body of Osiris before he became a god. It contains the dividing line between Life and Death, i.e., a deep moat containing water that surrounds all sides of the figure of the god on his throne. After 5,000 years, water still fills the canal through underground pipes from the River Nile. Recent excavations made on the site of Solimans Temple, establishes the fact that a thorough system of drainage and sewerage, was provided for the temple and its surroundings [34].
Article: The complicated drainage and sewerage systems of Minoan palaces were greatly admired by people from other areas and/or from later periods, while sometimes they were also misunderstood. It can be argued that this is one of the factors that led to the conception of the complicated labyrinth mentioned in the Hellenic myth of Theseus and the Minotaur [15].
OT: I once read a book that, as I recall, was a journal kept by an Englishwoman who was sent to Egypt "for her health". She described the rebuilding of the levees every year after the Nile floods, and said each village was required to provide their quota of workers. The men brought their own provisions and stayed for a few weeks.the power structures were closely linked to agriculture
For what I know, during the Nile floods (some months each year) people could not work in the fields and had nothing to do, so the Pharohs used this source of manpower to build the pyramids. They were housed (in camps) and fed by the Pharoh, they did not need to take their own supplies with them.It's hard to avoid the supposition that this same sort of system was used to get workers to build the pyramids; a required number of men per village, a few weeks work, then back home to tend their fields.