Epstein Conspiracy / UFO Conspiracy Comparison

[Giddierone]

I'm curious if others have comments to make about the apparent structural similarities between the Epstein Conspiracy and the long running claims of a UFO conspiracy since 1947.

As I see it they share these similarities.

• A grand conspiracy between powerful people who have apparently been able to prevent its core from being revealed.
• Delayed and partial disclosure (e.g. the recent UAP summaries, or AARO's heavily redacted videos, and the various incomplete/ redacted Epstein releases.
• Government cover-ups and redactions by "three letter agencies" FBI, CIA (again, heavily redacted UFO files / see recent Dec 2025 "Epstein files" released with hundreds of pages blacked-out).
• Bipartisan frustration with Executive inaction — in both cases the US President holds ultimate declassification power and could radically change the public's understanding if they chose to.
• Witnesses/victims who have or are willing to testify, name names and be whistleblowers.
• Suspicious deaths, bizarre yet unfounded claims in documents seen amongst other more verifiable documents.
• Media hype Vs Reality cycles, anticipation that we'll have answers soon!
• The general consensus is there IS a public interest in both cases that is not being satisfied, and is thwarted by institutional resistance, and this won't change in any meaningful way. Nor will there be anything but token accountability (Ghislaine Maxwell in prison, or some new UAP language , like "non-human intelligence," inserted in US law).
• In addition there the numerous interconnected conspiracies that are claimed to intertwine with both UFOs and Epstein (secret technology research, international espionage etc, however, the thread should be less about those than pointing to how similar the main branches are in attracting other conspiracies to help explain or confuse and deepen the mysteries).

 

[JMartJr]

I'm not clear which Epstein conspiracy you mean... are you referring to the one by Epstein et al to carry out their crimes, or conspiracy theories about the case involving belief in who and how information about the crimes are being covered up?

 

[Ann K]

I'm curious if others have comments to make about the apparent structural similarities between the Epstein Conspiracy and the long running claims of a UFO conspiracy since 1947.

I don't see the similarity, except perhaps a mistrust of the official government statements. The protagonists are different and the reasons are different. Epstein was a real known figure, and UFOs are not. Child sexual exploitation, the human desire to hide one's crimes, and murder disguised as suicide are all known to exist and UFOs are not. One concerns a real problem and one concerns an imaginary problem. One is usually believed by people who have some knowledge of human nature, and the other is usually believed by people who are ignorant about the facts of science.

 

[Giddierone]

I'm not clear which Epstein conspiracy you mean... are you referring to the one by Epstein et al to carry out their crimes, or conspiracy theories about the case involving belief in who and how information about the crimes are being covered up?

The conspiracy of committing the crimes. The witnesses, the documents, the secrecy, yet the resistance (so far) of proper public understanding. Seems so similar to the UFO conspiracy claims of crash retrieval, secret tech reverse engineering etc. Obviously, I'd argue the Epstein conspiracy is more real than anything UFO related.

 

[RTM]

One question that conspiracy theorists ask skeptics is do they believe that conspiracies exist, and the answer is always yes. I heard an article being referenced on a podcast that delved into the difference between a conspiracy and conspiratorial thinking, I could never find the article in question but the gist of it was that conspiracies exist but conspiratorial thinking usually goes off the deep end into the usual tropes we are all familiar with (some of which are mentioned in the OP).
In my opinion the Epstein case seems to have some conspiracy at the root of it his lenient sentencing in the original case, and what looks like heel dragging in the current administration etc., and it also lends itself to conspiratorial thinking such as elites/cabals, cover ups, disguised suicides etc.(I supposed you could argue my prior statement is conspiratorial thinking).

 

[Giddierone]

I don't see the similarity

The witnesses ready to expose the whole thing yet never managing to cross an unseen line is one of the things that made me consider them similar. The same for the media flirtation/revulsion with each topic. In some respects it appears the Epstein case is being manipulated to make it conform to the UFO conspiracy model—one with no resolution. Yet, with Epstein there is a real there, there.

the difference between a conspiracy and conspiratorial thinking,

Evidence, right? Seems healthy enough to be a bit paranoid that they're out to get you, just as long as you know how to weigh any evidence that they really are.

 

[RTM]

Yes. It's very easy to throw out the usual tropes (I'm sure some of them must have a wheel they spin), but it's not as if they have a team of journalists or researchers they send out into the field.

 

[Montauk]

The Epstein conspiracy (not theory as I don't think it is anymore) has credible evidence which the UFO conspiracy theory (along with many others) has always been lacking. Those people were abused, nuff said. That's my simplified view. But I do think it's being blown out of porportion by Qanon and other similar groups.

 

[Montauk]

I don't see the similarity, except perhaps a mistrust of the official government statements. The protagonists are different and the reasons are different. Epstein was a real known figure, and UFOs are not. Child sexual exploitation, the human desire to hide one's crimes, and murder disguised as suicide are all known to exist and UFOs are not. One concerns a real problem and one concerns an imaginary problem. One is usually believed by people who have some knowledge of human nature, and the other is usually believed by people who are ignorant about the facts of science.

Exactly.

 

[Ann K]

Evidence, right? Seems healthy enough to be a bit paranoid that they're out to get you, just as long as you know how to weigh any evidence that they really are.

Think of it this way: real conspiracies exist about real events. But if the topic is imaginary, it's a conspiracy theory, i.e. a theoretical conspiracy, in the non-scientific meaning of "theory" as purely a guess or a fantasy. The advantage (politically speaking) is that if the theory isn't real, nobody can disprove their participation, and it can be used to slander anyone the participants choose.

 

[Mendel]

The witnesses ready to expose the whole thing yet never managing to cross an unseen line is one of the things that made me consider them similar.

You mean victims reported to have received huge out-of-court settlements?

The thing we don't have in UFO cases is witnesses afraid to incriminate themselves.

 

[JMartJr]

But I do think it's being blown out of porportion by Qanon and other similar groups.

I'm putting on my "quibbling hat" for a moment of quibbling...

I don't think the problem with Qanon and friends is one of proportion, I think it is one of making up stuff, and passing made up stuff around. For example, looking at the case of the guy from NC who drove up to DC to rescue what he was led to believe was a basement full of enslaved and abused children*, IF one sincerely believed that there were children being held captive by a pedophile ring in the basement of a pizza joint then going to do something about it is a proportional response** (perhaps not the BEST response, but one proportional to the situation.)

The issue is not one of proportion -- a pedophile ring involving important people is a big deal -- but one of spreading untrue stories that accused the wrong people and wasted energy and resources. The "it's not true" bit was the problem with Qanon conspiracy theories, to my way of thinking.

*

Spoiler: The story of the NC Qanon guy who went to "self investigate" the Comet Ping Pong Pizza Parlor

The man who brought a gun into a pizza restaurant to "self-investigate" a series of fake news stories was charged Monday with four offenses, including assault with a deadly weapon and carrying a pistol without a license.

The US attorney's office for the District of Columbia also charged Edgar Welch, 28, of Durham, North Carolina with the unlawful discharge of a firearm and carrying a rifle or a shotgun outside a home or place of business. He is being detained until a preliminary hearing in DC superior court on Thursday.

On Sunday afternoon, Welch walked into Comet Ping Pong, a popular pizza spot in the Chevy Chase neighborhood, wielding a shotgun and fired three shots, according to the charging documents. Comet has been part of a bizarre fake news conspiracy that drew unsubstantiated links between the Hillary Clinton campaign and a fictitious child sex ring, which the stories said were being run from secret tunnels beneath the restaurant.

Police said that Welch had gone into Comet to "self-investigate" the restaurant. Welch told police he had "read online that the Comet restaurant was harboring child sex slaves and that he wanted to see for himself if they were there", according to the charging document. He said he was armed to help rescue them. And police said he "surrendered peacefully when he found no evidence that underage children were being harbored in the restaurant".

Welch is one of several people who have come to the area searching for the supposed tunnels in recent days. The difference is that he brought a gun that charging documents say he pointed at at least one police officer on Sunday, before he was led onto the street outside and arrested.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...on-pizza-child-sex-ring-fake-news-man-charged

** It is interesting to note that in spite of a significant percentage of the population professing to believe Qanonsense, and being aware of the stories of children being held captive in the basement of a pizza joint that turned out not to have a basement, so few went there to try and do something about it. I am not sure of that speaks more to people, deep down, knowing it was not true, or people deep down not being willing to actually do anything about a situation that should have driven thousands of them to go try and help the supposed children. Qanon has been compared to an online roll-playing game; much of the fun in such a game is the "willing suspension of disbelief," while deep down you know that you are not a mighty wizard or a heroic barbarian swordsman it is fun for you and your online froends to pretend you are. It may be that, under the willing suspension of disbelief necessary to enjoy the dopamine hit of playing the Righteous Fighting Evil Child Traffickers Qanon Game, there was more awareness that it was just an exciting game with a cool group of new online friends playing along with you than I'd assumed.

 

[MonkeeSage]

Here's a difference I see: there is documentary evidence of White House and Congressional delay, obfuscation and denial with the Epstein files.

In Congress, Speaker Mike Johnson recessed the House early in August just as the Massie-Khanna discharge petition ripened, ostensibly to prevent a vote. Johnson said in an interview regarding calling recess early, that the White House needed "room to do what they are doing" before Congress intervened. He refused to swear in Rep. Adelita Grijalva after they returned from recess, for seven weeks after she was elected on September 23 until November 12, ostensibly because it was clear from her statements that she would be the final signature needed to force the vote. Trump publically called Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene and other Republicans traitors for signing the petition and supporting the release of the files.

In the Senate, Chuck Schumer used a rare cloture motion to attempt to move the same legislation forward in the Senate, which they voted to table 51 to 49 within a couple hours of being filed, with only two Rupublicans (Reps. Josh Hawley, Rand Paul) voting against tabling the bill.

DOJ's attempts to unseal grand jury testimony rather than releasing the files they already possessed were called "a 'diversion' from the breadth and scope of the Epstein files in the Government's possession" by two federal judges.

After Grijalva was sworn in, the discharge petition went through and the House voted to pass the Esptein Files Transparency Act almost unanimously, and Senate agreed to pass the House version as is with no reading or debate within a couple of house, and it then signed into law by Trump.

DOJ has now ostensibly illegally redacted information contrary to the Act in the files they have release so far. Additionally, internal FBI emails/memos that were released have mentioned 10 potential co-conspirators who were subpoenaed during the investigation, which contradicts what FBI director Kash Patel testified to the House and Senate regarding there being no other potential co-conspirators besides Maxwell.

On the UFO side the opposite happened: Roadblocks have been removed and transparency and oversight has been codified in law.

UAPTF claimed there were at least some real threats to sensitive airspace. Whistleblowers came forward to ICIG and Congress.

Congress established a dedicated office (AARO) with broad UAP oversight over all agencies, able to receive all levels of classified info related to UAP.

Congress established an authorized reporting mechanism with broad protections from NDAs, DoE policies and any other laws that would prevent disclosure, and protections from personal retaliations for making authorized disclosures.

The Schumer-Rounds UAP Disclosure Act has been proposed 3 times and has been mostly rejected each time, but there's no indication it has been actively opposed or rejected along party lines, and the principals who created the AARO legislation have supported it (Sens. Rubio and Gillibrand).

The House Oversight Committee has held three public hearings with testimony from various UAP whistleblowers.

AARO published a historical assessment of government UAP programs and whistleblower claims. They found no undisclosed programs and found the claims were unsupported, and often involved circular reporting and/or misidentified real programs unrelated to UAP.

 

[Montauk]

I'm putting on my "quibbling hat" for a moment of quibbling...

I don't think the problem with Qanon and friends is one of proportion, I think it is one of making up stuff, and passing made up stuff around. For example, looking at the case of the guy from NC who drove up to DC to rescue what he was led to believe was a basement full of enslaved and abused children*, IF one sincerely believed that there were children being held captive by a pedophile ring in the basement of a pizza joint then going to do something about it is a proportional response** (perhaps not the BEST response, but one proportional to the situation.)

The issue is not one of proportion -- a pedophile ring involving important people is a big deal -- but one of spreading untrue stories that accused the wrong people and wasted energy and resources. The "it's not true" bit was the problem with Qanon conspiracy theories, to my way of thinking.

For sure. I regret using "proportion" as it was not really what I mean or feel. You articulated it better than I could have done. What I don't like is people making stuff up about people who weren't even tangentially involved with Epstein.