UAPs, Bigelow, and the "Invisible College"

[Ben Harris]

Looks like we both did it now, it was INGO Swann. My bad, and it should have been Joseph (Joe) McMoneagle, not John. My failing memory.

Lol. Need another coffee.

 

[Greene]

I'd argue we had one in the Navy from around 2004-2005, then another around Virginia Beach with naval pilots around 2019, if those were not all one extended cultural phenomenon.

I would classify them as a single phenomenon that was kickstarted by the Leslie Keane NYT article in 2017.

 

[Mendel]

I would classify them as a single phenomenon that was kickstarted by the Leslie Keane NYT article in 2017.

Keane kickstarting a 2004 UFO flap with a 2017 article would be proof of "breakthrough physics".

(And I'd say Keane was merely Elizondo's accomplice.)

 

[jarlrmai]

The term flap is being used with 2 slightly different meanings, a flap can be localised to a group or area. Someone has a weird experience tells people and then suddenly everyone is looking up and seeing and misinterpreting things and it spreads within the group, say for example the US Navy.

Or the flap can refer to an increase of interest in UFOs in the media which can then lead to a more widespread flap, in this instance one flap with delayed wider reporting led to another.

 

[FatPhil]

UFO flaps have been fizzling out since the late 1940s.

Google's NGrams says that, at least in books, they haven't.

 

[RTM]

UFO flaps have been fizzling out since the late 1940s.

I know "this time it's different" is a bit of a cliche, but I think this time it's at least a bit different. Obviously with the internet, social media etc. they got a lot more exposure, and there are the congressional hearings, influencing legislation etc. It just seems like this massive PR/lobbying campaign happened and the aliens never made an appearance, but instead of everyone shrugging their shoulders and turning to some thing else there seems to be an entrenchment of beliefs and a focus more on skeptics/debunkers.

 

[Ann K]

Google's NGrams says that, at least in books, they haven't.

Now add UAPs to that.

 

[JMartJr]

Now add UAPs to that.

That gets tricky, you start to get noticeable hits back as far as the 60s, apparently for things like Unlicensed Assistive Personnel, Urban Art Projects, Unstable Angina Pectoris, University of Asia and the Pacific, etc... though I was surprised to be reminded that the term had an early usage in USAF for "UFO" so some of them may be for that after all.

 

[FatPhil]

Now add UAPs to that.

I did that a few days ago and it kept its line just under both of the other two, IIRC, nothing particularly exciting.

 

[MonkeeSage]

This 1958 statement from Keyhoe shows not only the narrative is the same but even the same language is used today. If you replaced the date with 2025 and told me it was a recent tweet from The Disclosure Fund I would believe it.

Because of new developments, we expect a break in official secrecy in 1959. Verified UFO reports by many trained observers, here and abroad, have added strong evidence that the UFO's are real and under intelligent control. This, and documented proof of censorship, have led to Congressional support for open hearings in which hidden Air Force information would be revealed.

Source: Major Donald E. Keyhoe, NICAP mailing letter, 1958 (PDF pg. 18).

 

[NorCal Dave]

This 1958 statement from Keyhoe shows not only the narrative is the same but even the same language is used today. If you replaced the date with 2025 and told me it was a recent tweet from The Disclosure Fund I would believe it.

Indeed. And interestingly, I came across this passage from a book my wife found for me:

On November 16, 1966, The New York Times noted that "an Air Force plan to have university experts investigate unidentified flying objects is getting good acceptance in the academic world." The interest of the intellectual community coupled with the fact that The New York Times-which until recently, was somewhat hesitant about printing UFO stories at all-devoted a number of column inches to this subject, are two examples of the growing stature of, and interest in, this phenomenon.

The Flying Saucer Reader (1967) pg: vii

Again, just change the date to 2017 and once again the NYT is helping the "growing stature, and interest in, this phenomenon". Round and round it goes.

 

[Mendel]

Google's NGrams says that, at least in books, they haven't.

your graph shows several flaps, including in the late 40s

 

[jarlrmai]

I know "this time it's different" is a bit of a cliche, but I think this time it's at least a bit different. Obviously with the internet, social media etc. they got a lot more exposure, and there are the congressional hearings, influencing legislation etc. It just seems like this massive PR/lobbying campaign happened and the aliens never made an appearance, but instead of everyone shrugging their shoulders and turning to some thing else there seems to be an entrenchment of beliefs and a focus more on skeptics/debunkers.

It's prominence in US politics has found a bit of sticking point mostly it seems with the more anti-state/q-anon/election denying aligned Republicans (Burchett/Luna) but maybe also at least initially a little bit with the lefter leaning members of the Democratic party (was it AOC?) potentially based on the misappropriation of military funds angle.

Both seem to be from an anti-establishment perspective and those views these days do seemingly become more entrenched when they face resistance or don't come to fruition and "us vs them" becomes an issue.

 

[FatPhil]

your graph shows several flaps, including in the late 40s

One of your reactions to my post must be in error:

Z.W: UFO flaps have been fizzling out
Me: They haven't + image showing those flaps
You: "disagree"
Also you: They haven't, your image shows those flaps.

 

[RTM]

It's prominence in US politics has found a bit of sticking point mostly it seems with the more anti-state/q-anon/election denying aligned Republicans (Burchett/Luna) but maybe also at least initially a little bit with the lefter leaning members of the Democratic party (was it AOC?) potentially based on the misappropriation of military funds angle.

Both seem to be from an anti-establishment perspective and those views these days do seemingly become more entrenched when they face resistance or don't come to fruition and "us vs them" becomes an issue.

It's what happens when these claims/predictions don't come true that I find fascinating. Some conspiracies these days almost seem disposable, there almost seems to be one for whatever big story comes along, it then gets replaced by the next one.

 

[Ann K]

It's prominence in US politics has found a bit of sticking point mostly it seems with the more anti-state/q-anon/election denying aligned Republicans

Well ...they DO have excellent reasons to want to distract from things that are really happening. I don't think you can ignore the "shiny object" factor.

 

[JMartJr]

It's what happens when these claims/predictions don't come true that I find fascinating. Some conspiracies these days almost seem disposable, there almost seems to be one for whatever big story comes along, it then gets replaced by the next one.

Is that maybe the ARG (Alternate Reality Game) aspect of QAnon keeping the Game alive with new quests and side quests and the like?

(For those unfamiliar, the concept has been put forward that QAnon was either an intentional adaptation of ARG game practice for disseminating propaganda, or just happened to be the troll that took off in a huge way because it just happened to take on those characteristics. Artoicle on Q as ARG here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outl...d8ea46-928b-11eb-a74e-1f4cf89fd948_story.html

Q has specifically followed the model of an alternate reality game (ARG) using many of the same techniques. The games I design entice players through clever rabbit holes found in the real world that start them searching for answers — maybe something written on a billboard, seen at a rally or printed on a flier. Players are led through labyrinth-like stories full of puzzles, clues and group challenges. ARGs can have millions of people involved in them. (The 2007 game promoting Christopher Nolan's "The Dark Knight" had 11 million participants in 75 countries.) The similarities are so striking that QAnon has sometimes been referred to as a live-action role playing (LARP) or an ARG. But QAnon is the reflection of a game in a mirror: It looks like one, but inverted.
...
In many games, like the ones I work on, apophenia is a wild card that can lead participants away from the plot and force designers to scramble to get them back. Games can easily go off the rails — because there are rails. There are puzzles with real solutions and a real story to experience. In a well-designed game, players arrive at the intended epiphany, the puzzle is solved, new content is revealed, and the plot moves forward.

QAnon is a mirror reflection of this dynamic: Apophenia is the point. (JMartJr remarks -- Hence tghe current diversions of online conspiracy theory players chasing the Conspiracy of the Week, perhaps with no designer still running the game and the thing just lurching along on its own momentum?)
...
In a real game — or real life — it's hard to solve puzzles. First, there have to be actual puzzles or problems to solve. Then you need the skills to solve them, and your solution has to be right. Not so for the imaginary puzzles created by apophenia: There doesn't need to be anything to solve. You just have to be creative and follow along, leaping from one conclusion to the next. As Valerie Gilbert, the QAnon "meme queen," put it: "The world opened up in Technicolor for me. It was like the Matrix — everything just started to download."

 

[Mendel]

Article on Q as ARG here:

or here https://www.metabunk.org/threads/a-game-designer's-analysis-of-qanon.11509/ linking to medium.com which is not paywalled

 

[Mendel]

Does anyone get the feeling that their grand plan of disclosure (starting with the videos, NYT article etc.) has fizzled a bit?

UFO flaps have been fizzling out since the late 1940s.

This is true:

 

[FatPhil]

This is true:

View attachment 69348

"Flaps fizzling" means the set of flaps is fizzling - clearly false, they're continuing just fine, and certainly doing better after the 40s than before.
If "flaps fizzling" meant each individual flap, which is defined as a local peak, has a down side, then that's a zero-information statement. As a native speaker I consider your interpretation to be a deliberate attempt to misinterpret what was actually said. I certainly presumed Z.W. wasn't making a zero-information statement, and was merely misreading the media.

 

[Mendel]

"Flaps fizzling" means the set of flaps is fizzling - clearly false, they're continuing just fine, and certainly doing better after the 40s than before.
If "flaps fizzling" meant each individual flap, which is defined as a local peak, has a down side, then that's a zero-information statement. As a native speaker I consider your interpretation to be a deliberate attempt to misinterpret what was actually said. I certainly presumed Z.W. wasn't making a zero-information statement, and was merely misreading the media.

I quoted the context for you in my previous post.
@RTM said, "is this flap fizzling?"
@Z.W. Wolf said, "flaps have been fizzling"—this generalizes RTM's observation to UFO flaps in general—"since the late 1940s"—this is the information.
Wolf takes RTMs observation about this flap and puts it in the context of 80 years of UFOlogy.

Your analyses and nit picks tend to be particularistic, disregarding context. A more holistic approach would lead you less astray on assumed interpretations that do not reflect the intended meaning. Human language is ambiguous, and insisting that your reading is right derails the conversation.

You should grow suspicious when you assume that Z.W.Wolf is more likely to make a false statement than a redundant one. (And it wasn't redundant!)

 

[FatPhil]

I quoted the context for you in my previous post.
@RTM said, "is this flap fizzling?"
@Z.W. Wolf said, "flaps have been fizzling"—this generalizes RTM's observation to UFO flaps in general—"since the late 1940s"—this is the information.
Wolf takes RTMs observation about this flap and puts it in the context of 80 years of UFOlogy.

Your analyses and nit picks tend to be particularistic, disregarding context. A more holistic approach would lead you less astray on assumed interpretations that do not reflect the intended meaning. Human language is ambiguous, and insisting that your reading is right derails the conversation.

You should grow suspicious when you assume that Z.W.Wolf is more likely to make a false statement than a redundant one. (And it wasn't redundant!)

It was a terrible choice of tense/aspect in that case, and/or of subject. "UFO flaps always fizzle" would have been shorter and clearer.

But I accept that if you tie RTM's "their grand plan" and "Grusch" to be what Z.W. generalised to "flaps" then your view seems the most likely. (But I would argue that a *plan* isn't a flap, even if it's a plan to cause a flap, the flap is the response. However, that's unimportant now, that's just my weak excuse for not tieing the two together.)

 

[JMartJr]

linking to medium.com which is not paywalled

The WaPo article is available to me, though I have not got a subscription. Possibly they give a limited number of free views to stimulate interest? In any case, it's good to have an alternate source, so thanks!

 

[MapperGuy]

I know "this time it's different" is a bit of a cliche, but I think this time it's at least a bit different. Obviously with the internet, social media etc. they got a lot more exposure, and there are the congressional hearings, influencing legislation etc. It just seems like this massive PR/lobbying campaign happened and the aliens never made an appearance, but instead of everyone shrugging their shoulders and turning to some thing else there seems to be an entrenchment of beliefs and a focus more on skeptics/debunkers.

What's different this time is the maturity of social media and the number of persons who are making (or trying to make) a living by repeating and embellishing UFO stories. In the past making a living from UFO's required joining the speaking circuit and talking to convention crowds of true belivers between writing books regurgitating older stories. The internet has greatly widened the circle of people who are aware of and follow UFO stories and created more ways to separate them from their money.

The baseline for any graph of UFO fan numbers has been permanently raised because of the simplicity of just clicking "follow" on some website or feed.

 

[Ben Harris]

What's different this time is the maturity of social media and the number of persons who are making (or trying to make) a living by repeating and embellishing UFO stories. In the past making a living from UFO's required joining the speaking circuit and talking to convention crowds of true belivers between writing books regurgitating older stories. The internet has greatly widened the circle of people who are aware of and follow UFO stories and created more ways to separate them from their money.

The baseline for any graph of UFO fan numbers has been permanently raised because of the simplicity of just clicking "follow" on some website or feed.

So true.

 

[Mendel]

A major PR push around Tim Gallaudet which was sort of doused a bit by his other beliefs in poltergeists and psychics as openly announced by Tim in an interview from a while a go and recently reshared by Greenstreet, much to the chagrin of believers.
And now the push seems to be around Karl Nell, another name that's been around for a bit.

Part of the push: Pippa Malmgren, see https://www.metabunk.org/threads/new-names-in-the-ufo-space-pippa-and-harald-malmgren.13611/

 

[Nemon]

I think it's worth mentioning that @Luis Cayetano has continued to maintain and update the diagram he originally presented here on the interconnections within the U.S. UFO business. There was another update quite recently. I came across it again because I suspect that the disclosure rumor currently being pushed around the president must have been produced somewhere within this machinery.
Source (Metabunk doesn't seem to be accepting the graphic, even though it's still displayed in the preview — can someone fix that?)

The Lue Elizondo/Tom DeLonge/AATIP/AAWSAP/TTSA/David Grusch/whistleblower saga:
https://static.wixstatic.com/media/466531_841d6a64a67a4a4e92cfe4e5cf50e3ac~mv2.jpg​

 

[MonkeeSage]

Robert Bigelow recently started a podcast with George Knapp which is hosted on the youtube channel of CBS affiliate KLAS 8 in Las Vegas (where Knapp has worked since 1981).

In the fifth episode, the current owner of Skinwalker Ranch and producer of the TV show The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch, Brandon Fugal, discusses the future of the Ranch with Knapp and Bigelow.

From the excerpted conversation below, it appears that future seasons of The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch might move further away from the pretense that they are performing empirical scientific experiments to more fully embracing spiritual / supernatural / new age consciousness ideas and experiments based on the advice and guidance of Bigelow.


Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxi9PBjw4DY&t=259s

Timestamp 04:19-14:37:

Fugal: So you have, I mean, I'm giving you two sensational high-profile examples that make other examples seem to pale. But there is a pattern of unusual activity. And, Robert, the one thing we can't quite understand is where are they, are they coming through a portal? Is the non-human intelligence that is present on that property that appears, whether it be in the form of a flying saucer, UFOs, or unidentified aerial phenomena, or these figures, are they coming through portals from other dimensions? Or is it interstellar? Is there an interstellar highway? What do you think? I've been dying to get your opinion on this.

Bigelow: Well, how do you know they don't think that they're being invited to dinner? Just so you're not the dinner. But, you know, maybe it'd be really interesting just to see what you can do through an effort of communication in different kinds of ways. But, yeah, it could be all of the above as to- because portals have been seen by Terry Sherman in the sky and then through the large pipe device and so on, but um...

Fugal: But didn't Dr. Davis, didn't Eric Davis, was it he that saw the portal open and a creature come through and then dart off through the...

Bigelow: I only know about the craft in the trees that co-mingled itself with the trees.

Fugal: Right.

Bigelow: And it was a great opportunity for a very short dialogue. It was missed because of the shock. Eric wasn't expecting anything, obviously. And it was all telepathic, of course. And it says, "we are watching you." And so you wouldn't say, you know, "well, F you." You would say, well, "Hello. What can I do for you?" Or something like that. To start, even start a dialogue would be incredibly interesting and successful, not just as an experiment, but something much more serious as an engagement of some kind. And I think that's, this is, the ranch is an excellent place to attempt those kinds of things.

Fugal: I love what you're saying. And I appreciate your guidance on this, especially since we haven't approached our investigation and the phenomena at the ranch with a priority on communication. We've been using the scientific method and various experiments to document the phenomena, but we have not approached it in the way that you're advising. And I think as we enter this historic time, 30 years of investigation at Skinwalker Ranch, cumulatively, and over 10 years now under my stewardship, based on our dialogue last night and here, sitting together, listening to you, I feel a new imperative to shift the nature of the investigation to focus more on consciousness and communicating with whatever intelligence exists or is coming back and forth or using the ranch as a way station, if you will.

Bigelow: Right.

Fugal: We simply have not set up the scientific protocols to conduct that on a repeated, reliable basis. And I would honestly welcome your guidance and advice on how we could most effectively structure a new chapter of activity that would focus on communication and understanding the origin and the agenda associated with the phenomenon at Skinwalker Ranch. That's one thing that has driven me since my experience, was the desire to understand and the origin and the agenda associated with what we are interacting with, with what we are observing. What you're prescribing is a, it is a- we're talking 180 degree shift...

Bigelow: Yeah, Brandon? Hey, let's do it. [they shake hands]

Fugal: I welcome your guidance.

Bigelow: Let's do it.

Fugal: I welcome your guidance. I appreciate the spirit and also the intelligence behind what you're advising, and I take your challenge.

Bigelow: Thank you. Let's do it.

Fugal: And I will welcome your guidance as we report back on how we're going to set these in motion. This is not something to be taken lightly.

Bigelow: No, not at all.

Fugal: And I think we're going to have to shift carefully in that direction. This isn't something that you just flip a switch and do this overnight, especially since we have a number of things right now that are priority items that are already queued up with Dr. Taylor and the team. But I think me leaving this, this incredible discussion with you and going back to the team with a new imperative that is really focused on consciousness and the nature of what we're dealing with and communicating, sincere communication. And that's one of my biggest takeaways from our discussion last night and today is given the fact that we're dealing with intelligence that is so far advanced and knows, and can read our consciousness, knows our intent for better, for worse. I think we have to be very careful about who we invite into that sphere.

Bigelow: Right.

Fugal: And that's- how were you able to qualify who you would bring in to conduct some of those communication, uh, related experiments?

Bigelow: That's for a discussion at a later time.

Fugal: Okay, that's the one thing I'll look to your guidance for is how do we best qualify the participants? I mean, we have an incredible team that has been assembled. And I think one of our greatest strengths is the diversity of experts that have been involved. I mean, we're not just a, you know, a gathering of physicists- we have engineers, contractors, we have experts in fields involving ground penetrating radar, LIDAR. And we've also brought in spiritual people. We brought in native American shaman. We even had a rabbi. I don't know if you saw that or if that was brought to your attention.

Bigelow: I didn't know, I didn't see it.

Fugal: Yeah. One of the most insightful experiences...

Bigelow: But that's the right kind of track.

Fugal: So I will tell you one of the most compelling and insightful experiences that we had at Skinwalker Ranch was when we welcomed Rabbi Ariel Zadok to come on the property and conduct an experiment, he was pronouncing a rabbinical prayer, rabbinical chant that has been structured for the purpose of opening portals, opening doorways to other realms. And during that experiment in front of Homestead 2, the environment changed, the temperature. This is in the middle of the summer, the temperature dropped dramatically within a period of seconds and right in the doorway of Homestead 2, as captured on the FLIR camera system, there was a very dark black region that was, that was ice cold. And when they saw it, the rabbi halted his prayer so the men could go investigate and see whether there was an equipment malfunction, was the FLIR camera malfunctioning and registering this dramatic change in temperature falsely? Or was there something real happening in the environment? And when they went and they took steps into the Homestead area and into Homestead 2, they all described it as entering a deep freezer. And it was a, it was a freezing sensation, freezing cold sensation as they walked into that area. And the whole sequence of events was unforgettable.

And it does speak to what you're advising. The fact that consciousness, that intent, and sincere intent has an impact on the environment and even brings forward very physical phenomena. As we replayed that audio [sic] back, we captured in the field of view, something moving, even scanning the area around the men. And we had some other phenomena actually manifest. And this is probably no surprise to you that through a spiritual exercise, very real physical but unexplained phenomena manifest.

Bigelow: Yeah.

Fugal: That's what you're talking about doing.

Bigelow: Yes. Right.