Possible Shrapnel in MH17 Wreckage?

mvdb22

Member
I found new pictures on the internet showing what looks like some sort of shrapnel. It is a small cubicle formed piece of what looks like metal. It was found at the place where the cockpit crashed. A piece was photographed in a headrest of one of the pilots.

It is not shrapnel of a SA-11 missile according an expert. So what is it? SA-6 or a ground to ground missile like 9M55K.
More detailled photos taken around end of October here https://www.flickr.com/photos/128537380@N08/





 
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Bill

Senior Member
Top picture looks like part of a button/switch you might find on a cockpit control panel or around the bezel of a cockpit flight display. The second picture looks like the back of the same button/switch. Most likely debris from the crash and not shrapnel.

Edit: Could be one of these.
boeing_777_cockpit2.jpg
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I've added this close up, and retitled the tread, as it's not clear that it is shrapnel.
 

SupaFly

New Member
it could not be that button. it is clearly visible pedestal buttons are rectangular and piece found in headrest is square. we can see many square holes of size similar to this piece in cockpit wreckage photos and in this new set of images: https://www.flickr.com/photos/128537380@N08/with/15115901073 that ´piece of chocolate´ look of shrapnel is common sign of prefragmentation - milled grid of grooves in warhead casing to ensure blast will produce cloud of similar size and weight pieces with predictible trajectory. this is what fragmentation warheads do.
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Photos claiming to be of BUK warhead.
http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=38893&page=447




Looks like two layers, with some square fragments in the outer layer.

Compare the rust though. The square in the OP has zero rust, and looks more like a piece of ceramic. this might just be from like of time exposed to the elements.

Where did these photos come from? Who is "Marcel Research"? When were they taken (camera date is wrong)?
 

SupaFly

New Member
I dont know who is he. it appeared on PPruNe.org today. wrong date, but photos evidently from MH17 crash site. that piece dont look like outer layer of buk fragments to me. buk have puzzle of individual elements held together by some tape or fibreglass layers and square pieces have perpendicular edges. on headrest piece one edge is angled and other edges are torn what is consistent with prefragmented warhead body. http://www.google.com/patents/US6484642
 

Bill

Senior Member
Photos claiming to be of BUK warhead.
http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=38893&page=447




Looks like two layers, with some square fragments in the outer layer.

Compare the rust though. The square in the OP has zero rust, and looks more like a piece of ceramic. this might just be from like of time exposed to the elements.

Where did these photos come from? Who is "Marcel Research"? When were they taken (camera date is wrong)?
It doesn't seem to really have a square fragment out of it - just enough of those smaller fragments out to represent a roughly square shape flat on two opposite side and jagged on the others. It has an interesting attachment system on each end. Nice and aerodynamic.
 

mvdb22

Member
Some more photos which could be from a BUK warhead. It is all the same object taken from different angles. '



 

Bill

Senior Member
Some more photos which could be from a BUK warhead. It is all the same object taken from different angles. '



In the center and bottom photographs you can clearly see a toggle switch sticking out of it. That eliminates it as a piece of a warhead. It's just another piece of debris, probably from the cockpit.
Edit: It is visible but not clear in the top photograph when viewed at full size.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
It doesn't seem to really have a square fragment out of it - just enough of those smaller fragments out to represent a roughly square shape flat on two opposite side and jagged on the others.
The outer layer seems to be square pieces:


But then there are other photos of warheads that show more the chocolate style shaping.
 

SupaFly

New Member
I think if only front of the plane was hit, it was rather radar homing air-air missile than SAM which has massive warhead. former czech operators of soviet SAM system KuB (predecessor of Buk system with similar parameters operated by czech army in communist times) used to practice live shooting at remotely controlled targets and they said targets was usually shredded to little pieces, rarely they have found bigger fragment of jet engine only. unfortunately i was not able to find any photo of R27 od R77 AA missiles warhead to consider if that fragment could be from one of them. Other russian AA rockets can be excluded because they are infrared homing (targets jet engine hot exhaust) or have continuous rod warhead, not fragmentation annular blast ones.
 

Bill

Senior Member
The outer layer seems to be square pieces:


But then there are other photos of warheads that show more the chocolate style shaping.
Didn't see those. I guess those could be the squares, but looking at the picture of the fragment in the headrest that would mean that the red object as a whole is larger than I thought. Any idea how large those pieces would be in comparison to the piece in the first post?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
The piece in the OP has abot a 13mm square base, and 10mm square top.

A very rough fit of the warhead looks like it's about 25 squares in diameter (25*13mm = 325mm) . The BUK missiles are around 400mm in diameter, and the warhead will be a bit smaller, so the size seems comparable.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Remember that is an SA-3 warhead - about 1/2 the size of a BUK one!!
SA-3 missile is 375mm diameter, BUK is 400mm. I was putting the image up to demonstrate how a warhead is smaller than the missile that carries it.

Edit: actually seems like 400mm is the upper end of the diameters.
 
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Since this is about possible buk fragments in the wreckage there is a photo which has recently appeared in Ukrainian media, claiming to to an x ray of the pilot and showing buk fragments. I'm not sure if they could be or even if the photo is genuine.
http://censor.net.ua/resonance/344238/unichtojenie_rossiyiskoyi_armieyi_malayiziyiskogo_boinga_17_iyulya_2014_goda_rezultaty_ekspertizy_pozvolyayut
The website has gone off line in the last hour, but I did manage to take a copy of the x-ray photo. I don't know if it's real nut I imagine it would be illegal for it to be leaked if it is
 
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