MH17: Evidence a Missile was Used. Shrapnel, etc.

[KAT]

feel free to provide some evidence to support your claim that they are....you know....evidence...the stuff you keep saying I have to provide but which you never do.

Good way to avoid the issue of how much sense does that "stolen phones answered" story make? was a mourning relative even identified by name? nope, they were making up wholesale.

Here's some evidence you asked for about "media screaming about bodies being left to rot" etc Let me know if you want more.........

http://nypost.com/2014/07/21/mh17-recovery-efforts-in-shambles-as-bodies-pile-up/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ictims-robbed-of-their-dignity-by-rebels.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...lack-bags-and-loaded-onto-trains-9617172.html
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/19/mh17-armed-rebels-chaos-corpses-ukraine
http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...sian-separatists/story-fnizu68q-1226994383389
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ed-around-and-robbed/articleshow/38751679.cms
http://www.standartnews.com/english/read/mh17_victims_robbed_of_their_dignity_-4440.html
http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2014/07/21/rebels-move-bodies-from-mh17-site.html
http://www.enca.com/rebels-remove-bodies-have-material-resembling-mh17-black-boxes
http://mrapolitical.blogspot.com.au/2014/07/mh-17-disaster-too-many-bodies-are.html
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-07-23/at-mh17-crash-site-more-evidence-of-tampering
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...h-site-evidence-tampering-on-industrial-scale
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/uk...ampered-industrial-scale-australia-pm-n161801
http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/08/05/MH17-Russia-tampering/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ampering-evidence-bodies-MH17-crash-site.html


That last one is interesting.


news.com au is a News Ltd site which includes The Australian which is currently rabidly pro USA and pro Israel and anti anything else Middle East, and The Telegraph which always was a sensationalist tabloid, albeit a morning paper. I've worked at both, long long ago, and seen how news is "made". The linked "stolen telephones" story is what they call a "beat-up" (as in eggwhites, making something big out of mostly air).

 

[MikeC]

Good way to avoid the issue of how much sense does that "stolen phones answered" story make? was a mourning relative even identified by name? nope, they were making up wholesale.

got any evidence for that?

Here's some evidence you asked for about "media screaming about bodies being left to rot" etc Let me know if you want more.........

Well done on managing to provide evidence that bodies weer picked up AND ALSO left to rot after that had happened.

I see nothing at al in that about

Western media was screaming about bodies being left to rot WHILE THEY WERE ACTUALLY BEING PICKED UP
* media screamed about wreckage being moved WHILE DEMANDING BODIES BE PICKED UP

I see demands that bodies be treated with respect, that PROPER recovery of bodies takes place, that access be given to PROPER investigators, etc.

I am interested that you find the last one "interesting" - having just slagged me for daring to use "gossip rags" you are yourself putting forth the Daily Mail as a serious source of evidence??

Oh the irony.....

But since you like it let's see what it actually says:

Speaking from South Lawn of the White House, the U.S. president said it's Putin's 'responsibility to compel' the rebels to cease removing bodies from the area and allow investigators to have 'immediate and full access' to the site so they can conduct a thorough investigation.

and

Over the weekend images emerged of crash victims in body bags baking in the sun on the side of the road.
The bodies were later tossed into dirty trucks and transported to a train station where they were supposed to be loaded into a refrigerated car and shipped to a rebel-controlled town 50 miles away.
The cooling system in the car was reportedly not working overnight, however, and the bodies have been allowed to rot.
Yesterday U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry confirmed reports of 'drunken separatist soldiers unceremoniously piling bodies into trucks, removing both bodies, as well as evidence, from the site.'
'What's happening is really grotesque. And it is contrary to everything that President Putin and Russia said that they would do,' Kerry said.

not sure what it is you think is useful to your gish gallop in there - as far as I can see it says exactly what I've been saying - rebel "recovery" of bodies was slipshod, disrespectful, and an interference in the investigative process.

How about evidence in regard to the status of miners, or why it is that news.com.au and De Telegraff are "gossip rags", or that nobody "had a force ready to go", or that the rebels got blamed for moving stuff that was actually done by "(government) emergency services", or any of the other claims you have made??

 

[Nehmo]

Is anyone a bit surprised that the US wasn't asked to investigate the accident, or asked to have a much larger role in the investigation since they are known to have the best and most capable investigators in the world? Given the current turmoil in the area, I think having a US presence at the accident site(s) would've halted any battles in the immediate area, and a proper investigation would've been more possible. Not knocking on the Netherlands or Malaysia but it's quite obvious they didn't have the means to quell current tensions in the area..

I'm an American born 60 years ago who has lived in the Netherlands, and with that perspective, I feel I need to clear up some misconceptions.
It was worse when I was young, but still, since early school years, American kids get indoctrinated to constant "We are the best" in everything. (We also get told we are the land of the free too, but that's another subject.) But we are not. We have the most capable military, sure. We spend

multiple times what anybody else spends. We also are tops in a number of technical fields, software, most notably for me. But we don't have the highest standard of living, and, on the negative, we have perhaps the highest incarceration rate (maybe N Korea DPRK beats us there).
There are small countries that compete very well with the US in many areas. I'm referring to the Netherlands.
BTW, the Dutch feel they started the US (historically New York was New Amsterdam).
The Dutch are smart. They have much more freedom from government repression than people of the US. They are advanced technologically. In hydraulic expertise, wind turbine design, rail transportation, they are at the top.
Also, they are politically on the fence when it comes to old cold war lines. Sure, they are part of NATO and the EU, but the people often express anti-American-governemnt attitudes. When I'm over there, I find myself having to defend my country more than not. Back here, I'm anti-establishment, let's say.
When I heard the Dutch would play a major role in the Mh17 investigation, I definitely was pleased.

 

[KAT]

that the rebels got blamed for moving stuff that was actually done by "(government) emergency services", or any of the other claims you have made??

I am not going to provide a day by day blow by blow recap of everything that happened or was said (in Ukraine, in the media, anywhere) since July 17, to someone who clearly was in a cave somewhere since then. If you were interested, you'd have kept track of it as it was happening. Now you should wait, maybe, until some paper puts out a "true story of MH17i" feature clipped together from quotes of older editions.

If you don't want to wait, you can learn to google.

Yesterday U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry confirmed reports of 'drunken separatist soldiers unceremoniously piling bodies into trucks, removing both bodies, as well as evidence, from the site.'
What's happening is really grotesque. And it is contrary to everything that President Putin and Russia said that they would do,' Kerry said.

So you quote a story based on statement by John Kerry as proof of what you're saying? just proves what i said about taking your ideas frm the media.

Sadly, without any apparent attempt at critical thinking or judgement.

Your demands for "evidence" for ever second word I say is a hostile game which you are welcome to play on your own. I'm done with you.

 

[MikeC]

I quoted your source as EVIDENCE.

I do not ask for evidence for "every second word you say" - I ask for evidence of claims you make - just like you did of me.

For example you claim that stories of cell phones being answered by someone being "[made] up wholesale" - that is a claim you make - so how about supporting it with some evidence??

 

[MikeC]

I'm an American born 60 years ago who has lived in the Netherlands, and with that perspective, I feel I need to clear up some misconceptions.
It was worse when I was young, but still, since early school years, American kids get indoctrinated to constant "We are the best" in everything.

It gets it's own entry in wiki!

 

[Jason]

OT

There are small countries that compete very well with the US in many areas. I'm referring to the Netherlands.
BTW, the Dutch feel they started the US (historically New York was New Amsterdam).
The Dutch are smart. They have much more freedom from government repression than people of the US.

How are US citizens a victim of government "repression"? Plenty of countries "started" America. That's the beauty of America.

Sure, they are part of NATO and the EU, but the people often express anti-American-governemnt attitudes. When I'm over there, I find myself having to defend my country more than not. Back here, I'm anti-establishment, let's say.
When I heard the Dutch would play a major role in the Mh17 investigation, I definitely was pleased.

I had no idea that the Dutch spew Anti-American nonsense, or have a negative view about America. You'd think after the way WWII turned out they would've had a more positive view of the US. I'm somewhat dissappointed that the Dutch feel this way about the US, but it is what it is, and I guess I will just have to take your word since I don't plan on going their any time in the near future.
Its funny, when you do a google search for the best countries to live in the US comes up as #6 along with the Netherlands, Amersterdam, Sweden, Canada and AU and England. http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/rich-countries/the-10-best-countries-to-live-in-2014/8/. I will add that the US has to cater to over 314 million residents that we know of and that number could be higher by as much as 10 or 15 million with illegal residents seeking employment, but the Netherlands only has to deal with about 16 million or 17 million. So sure the rate of incarceration is much higher in the US, and we house about 25% of the worlds criminals even though we only make up about 5% of the worlds population. But that could also be a testament of our judicial system. You see we put people in jail if they smack their wife or get caught with a dime bag of weed.

Drug sentencing laws[edit]
Another contributing factor to United States' spike in the number of prisoners is the War on Drugs, formally initiated by Richard Nixon with the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act of 1970 and avidly pursued by Ronald Reagan.[56] By 2010, drug offenders in federal prison had increased to 500,000 per year, up from 41,000 in 1985. Drug related charges accounted for more than half the rise in state prisoners. The result, 31 million people have been arrested on drug related charges, approximately 1 in 10 Americans.[57]
After the passage of Reagan's Anti-Drug Abuse Act in 1986, incarceration for non-violent offenses dramatically increased. The Act imposed the same five-year mandatory sentence on users of crack as on those possessing 100 times as much powder cocaine.[56][58] This had a disproportionate effect on low-level street dealers and users of crack, who were more commonly poor blacks, Latinos, the young, and women.[59]
Courts were given more discretion in sentencing by the Kimbrough v. United States (2007) decision, and the disparity was decreased to 18:1 by the Fair Sentencing Act of 2010.[60] As of 2006, 49.3% of state prisoners, or 656,000 individuals, were incarcerated for non-violent crimes. As of 2008, 90.7% of federal prisoners, or 165,457 individuals, were incarcerated for non-violent offenses.[61]
By 2003, 58% of all women in federal prison were convicted of drug offenses.[62] Women of color are disproportionately affected by the War on Drugs. African American women's incarceration rates for all crimes, largely driven by drug convictions, have increased by 800% since 1986, compared to an increase of 400% for women of other races.[63]
According to the American Civil Liberties Union, "Even when women have minimal or no involvement in the drug trade, they are increasingly caught in the ever-widening net cast by current drug laws, through provisions of the criminal law such as those involving conspiracy, accomplice liability, and constructive possession that expand criminal liability to reach partners, relatives and bystanders."[64]
These new policies also disproportionately affect African-American females. According to Dorothy E. Roberts, the explanation is that poor women, who are disproportionately black, are more likely to be placed under constant supervision by the State in order to receive social services.[65] They are then more likely to be caught by officials who are instructed to look specifically for drug offenses. Roberts argues that the criminal justice system's creation of new crimes has a direct effect on the number of women, especially black women, who then become incarcerated.

Our laws are stricter and our sentencing is much longer than other countries in the EU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate

 

[WeedWhacker]

I'm an American born 60 years ago who has lived in the Netherlands

Well, I'm an American who was born 57 years ago and has visited the Netherlands (and many other parts of the World) and, though verging OT...I think that nationalism is a crock of shiite.

 

[Mick West]

This thread appears to have gone very far off topic. I encourage people to read the posting guidelines. New topics in new threads.

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/posting-guidelines.2064/