MH17: Evidence a Missile was Used. Shrapnel, etc.

[MikeC]

To be fair: the damage looks very similar. If you'd show the following pictures to random people in the street I bet 99% would say 'looks like bullet holes'

And that is why "random people on the street" are not air accident investigators

Also why there's so much need for debunking tbh - 'cos every "random person on the street" considers themselves an authority on every freakin' subject these days!

 

[Danver]

http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/International/Vol-MH17-La-piece-a-conviction-qui-accuse-577040

claim high velo hits to airframe

note to readers a female body pictured in link the French press dont seem to censor

To me this picture /piece is the most relevant part. Either pellets ,debris or shrapnel did not go thru ,instead made deep burns in the metal. I dont think a rifled cannon can make this ,its bullets will simply drill thru. But something like a shot gun with almost melting material can. And thats basically what shrapnel does..

 

[Mick West]

To me this picture /piece is the most relevant part. Either pellets ,debris or shrapnel did not go thru ,instead made deep burns in the metal. I dont think a rifled cannon can make this ,its bullets will simply drill thru. But something like a shot gun with almost melting material can. And thats basically what shrapnel does..

There's no deep burns in metal there. There are holes, and then there's two marks that seem just to be the result of high speed impacts.

Rifled rounds don't drill though things. They punch though, like any high speed projectile.

 

[Hannibal]

And that is why "random people on the street" are not air accident investigators

Exactly my point. So far these comments about 'bullet holes' came from people with no more knowledge about this topic than the random person in the street. But I seriously wonder why we hear nothing else about this. There have to be a lot of experts who should see at first sight that these holes can never be caused by a 30mm gun...

 

[KAT]

That windshield frame is made of several layers, which would have been partially split by the still expanding gasses from the detonation. That's where the "burned" look would come from too, as also visible on the skin section immediately below the cockpit.

Earlier today I found an alleged interview with a supposed Ukrainian pilot who claimed it was him that show down MH17 with his cannon. A day or two later the claim was repeated, except by then it was not him personally, but his plane, being used by a Polish "contractor/mercenary" pilot with a US passport who left the country by July 20 with a new passport. These were on a German language Russian site; I can go back and find links if you all really want to see for yourselves.

EDIT: I've put the ridiculous stories on the other thread, so all the Government conspiracy theories are all in one place there now.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/mh17-hypotheses.4119/page-2#post-120912

 

[KAT]

There have to be a lot of experts who should see at first sight that these holes can never be caused by a 30mm gun.

This is ONE nobody will be able to cover up with a wrong story. Too many people have seen it.

I can also understand someone without enough knowledge using "outward" holes to "prove" it was shot at from 2 sides. Bad luck for them they can't show any of that starboard side cannon fire going IN anywhere (preferably on the starboard side).

 

[Danver]

There's no deep burns in metal there. There are holes, and then there's two marks that seem just to be the result of high speed impacts.

Rifled rounds don't drill though things. They punch though, like any high speed projectile.

Correct Mick. But listen ,if you asked me what weapon would I use at 30 feet to cause a similar effect on those aluminum alloy-backed with steel ,and I had the choice to use a 38 special ,a 45 ,a 9 mm ,a 5.57 or a 7.62: the 45 would ressemble the most what we are seeing. 9 mm ,5.57 or 7.62 are like needles ,they puncture while the 45 has a huge stopping power. A 45 would be the closest to a shotgun. A shot gun has a great stopping power ,since it doesn't have a rifled barrel the lead balls have lots of energy in a short distance.

At least two of the holes look with melted edges ,when this kind of missile explode the rods and sharpnel is almost melted due to friction . Notice one of those pieces of metal (which did not go thru) could not separate completely the aluminum frames ,and was only able to pull out one rivet , a second hit on that frame sepparated the frame and bent it pulling out two bolts on the left hand side.

9 mm ,5.56 or 7.62 would simply go thru.

 

[Jason]

At least two of the holes look with melted edges ,when this kind of missile explode the rods and sharpnel is almost melted due to friction

How do you know this? What would be the point of proximity warheads that use shrapnel if the warhead melted all the shrapnel. The metal that surrounds the explosive agent is diamond cut like in this photo;

The shrapnel survives the blast

 

[Danver]

How do you know this? What would be the point of proximity warheads that use shrapnel if the warhead melted all the shrapnel. The metal that surrounds the explosive agent is diamond cut like in this photo;

The shrapnel survives the blast

Because sharpnel not only goes sideways ,in other pictures of that sa 11 you will see it has rods on the front edge. Those and fired when the head explodes. Let me try to find a sa 11 head. I believe somebody posted it in the thread earlier.

This is the one ,shrapnel goes sideways as a ring but also foward

 

[BombDr]

Because sharpnel not only goes sideways ,in other pictures of that sa 11 you will see it has rods on the front edge. Those and fired when the head explodes. Let me try to find a sa 11 head. I believe somebody posted it in the thread earlier.

Do you mean an expanding rod warhead?

 

[Jason]

Because sharpnel not only goes sideways ,in other pictures of that sa 11 you will see it has rods on the front edge. Those and fired when the head explodes. Let me try to find a sa 11 head. I believe somebody posted it in the thread earlier.

This is the one ,shrapnel goes sideways as a ring but also foward

This image of the skin below the cockpit window looks different from most I've seen. Most images are from the front but this is from the side. We can see how close together the shrapnel puncture holes are together which leads me to believe the blast must've happened relatively close to this part of the plane.

As the expanding shrapnel moves out from the blast one would expect the holes to be further apart

 

[Jason]

Here's a good read that does a detailed analysis of the crash
Talk:Crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17/Forensics
http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Crash_of_Malaysia_Airlines_flight_MH17/Forensics

 

[Danver]

Do you mean an expanding rod warhead?

What I said is ,it has those fragments shown in the picture and also rods. But we must make a difference between weapons here: we must compare between rifled barrels and its bullets (because remember they said a su-25 shot this 777 with cannons.. or two SU-25s) and what a shot gun would do ,which is similar to the effect of expanding shrapnel.

 

[Jason]

Here's a good read that does a detailed analysis of the crash
Talk:Crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17/Forensics
http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Crash_of_Malaysia_Airlines_flight_MH17/Forensics

It also appears that the Russian propaganda machine is very busy editting the above link as well as other MH17 links in Wiki. Does Wiki have a way to ensure the data can't be editted?

 

[Danver]

nope ,as the matter of fact that su-25 service ceiling was changed in wikis several other languages. The only one without change is english 7,000 mts clean ,5,000 mts full load.. (I guess the first languages to be changed were Russian ,Iranian ,Sirian ,North Korean and Spanish Cuba-Venezuelan)

See the one in Spanish ,they changed it the next day mh 17 was downed:

Rendimiento

• Velocidad máxima operativa (Vno): 950 km/h (590 MPH; 513 kt) (Mach 0,77)
• Radio de acción: 375 km (202 nmi; 233 mi)
• Alcance en ferry: 2 500 km (1 350 nmi; 1 553 mi)
• Techo de servicio: 10 000 m (32 808 ft)
• Régimen de ascenso: 58 m/s (11 417 ft/min)
• Carga alar: 584 kg/m²
• Empuje/peso: 0,51

Link: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-25

In Russian seems to be still the same:

Лётные характеристики

• Максимальная скорость: 950 км/ч (с норм. боевой нагрузкой)
• Крейсерская скорость: 750 км/ч
• Посадочная скорость: 210 км/ч
• Боевой радиус: 300 км
• Практическая дальность: (с норм. боевой нагрузкой)
  • на высоте:
    • без ПТБ: 640 км
    • с 4× ПТБ-800: 1250 км
  • у земли:
    • без ПТБ: 495 км
    • с 4× ПТБ-800: 750 км
• Перегоночная дальность: 1950 км
• Практический потолок: 7000 м[* 2]
• Максимальная высота боевого применения: 5000 м
• Радиус виража: 680 м (при норм. боевой нагрузке на 1500 м при 555 км/ч)
• Скороподъёмность: 60 м/с (у земли с нагрузкой 1000 кг)
• Нагрузка на крыло: 485 кг/м² (при норм. взлётной массе)
• Тяговооружённость: 0,56 / 0,466 (при норм./макс. взлётной массе)
• Длина разбега:
  • на бетонной ВПП: 550 м
  • на грунтовой ВПП: 600 м
• Длина пробега: (без тормозного парашюта)
  • на бетонной ВПП: 600 м
  • на грунтовой ВПП: 700 м
• Максимальная эксплуатационная перегрузка:
  • с нормальной боевой нагрузкой: + 6,5g
  • с максимальной боевой нагрузкой: + 5,2g
  • 
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Су-25

 

[MikeC]

Because sharpnel not only goes sideways ,in other pictures of that sa 11 you will see it has rods on the front edge. Those and fired when the head explodes. Let me try to find a sa 11 head. I believe somebody posted it in the thread earlier.

This is the one ,shrapnel goes sideways as a ring but also foward

I don't think that's a continuous rod warhead - the later larger photos show it has pre-formed fragments.

A continuous rod warhead would slash the target with large rips - effectively slicing it apart - rather than puncture it with a lot of disconnected holes

 

[KAT]

A continuous rod warhead would slash the target with large rips

Yes. The rods come out like a giant numchuk. Designed to have spin on them individually.
The BUK has separate fragments that spray out.

HMAS Hobart hit by USAF "friendly fire" in Vietnam war with continuous rod missile.

Lot of smaller holes, too. Three missiles were involved.

 

[Nehmo]

If, indeed, Ukraine planes shot down MH17, then what would Kiev do with the planes? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/23/rebels-ukrainian-fighter-jets-mh17
On a related subject, Who appoints these "rebel spokespersons"? How do you get to be one? What kind of uniform do you wear?

 

[KAT]

If, indeed, Ukraine planes shot down MH17, then what would Kiev do with the planes?

How do you mean? why would they still be flying, after MH17 was brought down? For the same military reasons they flew all the planes that were brought down before that. Observation, bombing, shooting missiles at separatist positions etc etc. Being shot at is kind of expected by military planes in war zones. They are able to evade canon fire and missiles, to some extent. And if they can't, the crew is able to eject (and most would survive doing that). Many also manage to go up, do their job (whatever it is) and go home in one piece.
For them to stop flying because one gets shot down, would be like ground forces packing up and going home if 10 of their men get killed. (Pity it doesn't go like that, as it would make all wars very brief -- shoot 10 from each side and it's over).

 

[Nehmo]

...
For them to stop flying because one gets shot down, would be like ground forces packing up and going home if 10 of their men get killed. (Pity it doesn't go like that, as it would make all wars very brief -- shoot 10 from each side and it's over).

If Kiev sent 2 planes to kill MH17 (and that's if), then, after the event, Kiev would still have the planes and live pilots in the service. But then there was considerable questioning as to what happened, and Kiev would have wanted to eliminate the evidence.
After the plane downing, Kiev made an effort to militarily take over the area of the crash. I thought this made no sense because - what was the point of taking that area? But perhaps Kiev wanted to cover the evidence. And maybe the same behavior took place with the planes. To spell it out: Kiev could have shot down its own planes to get rid of the evidence. There's no word on the fate of the pilots, btw.
Kiev denied having planes in the area when the MH17 downing occurred. But this contradicts the Russian radar, which shows "probably Su25s". But Kiev also didn't explain why it had BUKs set up in the area.

 

[KAT]

Does Wiki have a way to ensure the data can't be editted?

If a Wiki article is too edited, they can temporarily lock it. They don't often do this.

The Russian language Wikipedia was totally different from the English one, and found to be regularly edited from Russian government IPs. They locked down the thread, but apparently the few admins allowed to use it are rather pro-Russian (tho not as much as the government guys were). It is still interesting to toss the Russian one into Google Translate.

The English Wiki entry is constantly monitored. Click Talk at the the top of the article to see the large amount of argument about what should be included and how it should be worded. There are representatives there from all sides of the propaganda war.

There is a neutrality policy for all articles. Where there is controversy, both sides of it should be discussed with fair representation of them and no choosing sides. The main article has to be neutral.

Anyone can revert things they feel should not have been changed. This then leads to a re-reversion (called an Edit War if it continues) and having to explain reasons on the Talk page. It is better to explain first.


EDIT: sorry were you thinking of this Wiki? I don't know their rules. But they seem very intelligent and scientific.
http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Crash_of_Malaysia_Airlines_flight_MH17/Forensics

nope ,as the matter of fact that su-25 service ceiling was changed in wikis several other languages. The only one without change is english

The above is very relevant. I never looked to see what OTHER languages were being newly edited. This could be part of a campaign to underscore that Kiev could have done it.

 

[KAT]

If Kiev sent 2 planes to kill MH17 (and that's if), then, after the event, Kiev would still have the planes and live pilots in the service. But then there was considerable questioning as to what happened, and Kiev would have wanted to eliminate the evidence.

WOW now THAT is a conspiracy i didn't think of. Two Ukrainian planes shoot down MH17 (on purpose or by accident,no matter). The pilots are silenced by being shot down. it can NOT be by their own people as then THEY need to be silenced. All they need do is send these poor guys out every day to fly over separatist areas, good chance they'll get shot down on Day One.

After the plane downing, Kiev made an effort to militarily take over the area of the crash. I thought this made no sense because - what was the point of taking that area?

No connection. It was a separatist area that they wanted to get back control of anyway. Had they succeeded they could have boasted how good they were, letting in the foreign investigators in safety. Taking the area would cut off Donetsk separatists from Luhansk ones and others nearer the border, making it easier to take Donetsk by surrounding it. Nothing to do with MH17.

Kiev denied having planes in the area when the MH17 downing occurred. But this contradicts the Russian radar, which shows "probably Su25s". But Kiev also didn't explain why it had BUKs set up in the area.

Proves nothing. They have to deny planes if they are being accused of doing the shooting. "I wasn't there" is always the first alibi, right?

Russian radar could be/is propaganda designed to accuse Ukraine, it may or may not be accurate; it says nothing about what type of plane; the radar did not show any planes arriving, only being "there" and partly stationary -- the pattern of them very much looks like they just picked up the death throes of MH17 as the pieces broke up.

Dunno the relevance of Kiev having BUKs in the area. but they're entitled to, for no special reason -- the area used to be all theirs and they could/would have BUKs in various locations like most other countries would have. Nobody's accused them of shooting down MH17 with BUKs. In fact the ones the separatists had (but later denied having) were "liberated" from a Government position near Luhansk back in June. (Kiev later denied this and/or variously claimed that had been a faulty one with no missiles, but that was just to go along with the USA claim that Russia had sent in a BUK and operators on loan).

 

[Pete Tar]

After the plane downing, Kiev made an effort to militarily take over the area of the crash. I thought this made no sense because - what was the point of taking that area? But perhaps Kiev wanted to cover the evidence.

So apply this logic to the rebels - why did they threaten investigators, why have they mined the area?

But this contradicts the Russian radar, which shows "probably Su25s". But Kiev also didn't explain why it had BUKs set up in the area.

It does not and never has shown 'probable su25s'! This is getting repeated so often as fact there is no doubt the Russian misinformation has served its intended purpose.

What BUKs and what area? I thought the 'area' they did have them was too far away from the incident. Is there proof for them being in the area on the day?

 

[Chew]

After the plane downing, Kiev made an effort to militarily take over the area of the crash. I thought this made no sense because - what was the point of taking that area?

To prevent the rebels from tampering with the evidence.

 

[MikeC]

Kiev denied having planes in the area when the MH17 downing occurred. But this contradicts the Russian radar, which shows "probably Su25s".

Russian radar shows no such thing - it shows nothing except 3 commercial flights - one of which then becomes 2 contacts - consistent with that one splitting apart in mid air after being hit by a missile.

 

[MikeC]

To prevent the rebels from tampering with the evidence.

I think too for the propaganda/credibility factor - controlling the area allows the rebels to deal with the international community as an entity in their own right - it forces the OSCE to deal with them publically - this is a considerable propaganda/kudos coup.

Denying the rebels this opportunity is a thing Kiev certainly wants to do.

 

[Nehmo]

First, I must state at the outset that I don't have hours-a-day to search through press releases and articles on the subject. So, I'm not fully informed, and I'm asking you better-informed MH17-followers to explain to me what must be common knowledge at this time.

What was our (the US) response to the request of satellite photos? I believe it was that we may provide them, but never did. If that's true, then what is the US statement explaining why are we (the US) are not revealing the satellite photos? It's been a while now.

If I'm wrong about this (the US not revealing the photos), can somebody link to the photos? I particularly want to see the one of the launch of the BUK.

 

[KAT]

So apply this logic to the rebels - why did they threaten investigators, why have they mined the area?

FIRST RULE in a war -- if one side says the other side is doing something, it is 90% untrue and 100% propaganda. What evidence is there of mines? Kiev put that about to keep investigators away because the were planing/doing an ATTACK on the separatists.

The separatists were understandable leery about these foreigners, who originally (the OSCE people) there as political observers but get around in convoys like they're important and wear flak jackets like they're scared. They truly might be spies. Especially when their leader (Bociurkiw) speaks fluent Ukrainian. Less to do with MH17 and more with their general situation. News crews getting around in local battered old cars got let in everywhere.

To prevent the rebels from tampering with the evidence.

Nope, it was no-man's land, next in line to be taken back anyway. What tampering would they suspect? They made no attempt to take back the area until the train with the bodies had left (and the observers, too). The "rebels" had a week to "tamper" and all they did instead was pick up the bodies, and a lot of belongings, and hand them over to the right people, ie ones who were not going to tamper.

I think too for the propaganda/credibility factor - controlling the area allows the rebels to deal with the international community as an entity in their own right -Denying the rebels this opportunity is a thing Kiev certainly wants to do.

What is it today? July 18??? are we in a time warp?

a) the separatists DID have physical control of the area before and on July 17
b) OSCE and anyone else DID have to deal with them
c) they did let in the Emergency Services people to help pick up bodies, these were probably fairly local people but the service is under Kiev control
d) they then took the bodies away from them (at gunpoint but they didn't sound like they wanted to resist much anyway) to maintain control over what happens to them next (you can understand they don't want them ending up with Government, who might tamper to put more blame on the separatists).
e) The Netherlands and Malaysia DID NEGOTIATE with the separatist leadership about the return of the bodies and black boxes. Successfully.

Kiev did not try to take back the territory until several days after the mortuary train left Torez -- actually 10 days after the crash. They did, however, keep OSCE observers out by claiming the separatists had mined the area.

So preventing the separatists from dealing with the world in their own right??? 10 days too late for that.

 

[KAT]

why are we (the US) are not revealing the satellite photos?

Not everyone here is from the USA. Here "we" is the people on this forum, or the world at large as in "we humans". All countries or other involved entities are best referred to as "them" not as "we".

I particularly want to see the one of the launch of the BUK.

HAHA so would everyone else. There was a satellite image with arrows drawn on it, kind of the same image anyone can get off Google.

When specifically cross examined at a White House briefing, the Press person ummed and ahhhed and made statements that sounded very much like the ONLY evidence they had was from social media. Certainly did not produce any satellite images, and said they'd probably be too classified to get released.

Since the black boxes were analysed they've gone very quiet about BUK locations, and have stopped blaming the separatists, and are pushing Russia for other excuses. At this stage I would not trust those photos any more than I trust the Russian radar data.

 

[Soulfly]

First, I must state at the outset that I don't have hours-a-day to search through press releases and articles on the subject. So, I'm not fully informed, and I'm asking you better-informed MH17-followers to explain to me what must be common knowledge at this time.

What was our (the US) response to the request of satellite photos? I believe it was that we may provide them, but never did. If that's true, then what is the US statement explaining why are we (the US) are not revealing the satellite photos? It's been a while now.

If I'm wrong about this (the US not revealing the photos), can somebody link to the photos? I particularly want to see the one of the launch of the BUK.

The U.S. government is not obligated to show YOU or anyone else anything. If the U.S. government has given that info to the investigators then it might be part of the final report.

 

[Jason]

What was our (the US) response to the request of satellite photos?

What request? Who requested the satellite photos? No one has requested these photos from the US as far as I can remember besides Putin or his counterparts on RT news or some other Russian propaganda outlet. If there was a formal inquiry into the accident, and the US was required to share it's intelligence, I'm sure the US would do what ever is possible to help out without hurting it's intelligene capabilities. We also have plenty of evidence that rebels did it, overwhelming evidence that satisfies all parties involved in the investigation. As @Landru pointed out in another thread that the Buk system was detected the moment the system's radar was turned on, and the US was even able to detect when it locked onto MH17 using ELINT;

↑
Great point Landru, and I remember the US discussing this early on after the plane crash. They were able to detect the Buk system when it was turned on to acquire the target and they were even able to detect when the Buk system locked on to the target. So there is no way the US wouldn't have known exactly which type of hardware was used to shoot down MH17.
radars, surface-to-air missile systems, aircraft, etc. ELINT can be used to detect ships and aircraft by their radar and other electromagnetic radiation; commanders have to make choices between not using radar (EMCON), intermittently using it, or using it and expecting to avoid defenses. ELINT can be collected from ground stations near the opponent's territory, ships off their coast, aircraft near or in their airspace, or by satellite.
The method used is identifying the pulse repetition frequency (PRF) that is unique to the BUK in tracking mode. This is not difficult.

 

[KAT]

the Buk system was detected the moment the system's radar was turned on, and the US was even able to detect when it locked onto MH17 using ELINT;

So someone says. They can say anything they like, then say it's classified so they can't show the proof. It would not have been satellite, anyway, but a spy plane. They may as well admit to that, as it got locked on and chased out by Russian planes next day. An RC-135.

Even if true, it won't show who owned it, who was in charge of it and who pushed the button. It most certainly won't say what he/his commander was thinking at the time about who or what MH17 was.

 

[MikeC]

What is it today? July 18??? are we in a time warp?

a) the separatists DID have physical control of the area before and on July 17
b) OSCE and anyone else DID have to deal with them
c) they did let in the Emergency Services people to help pick up bodies, these were probably fairly local people but the service is under Kiev control
d) they then took the bodies away from them (at gunpoint but they didn't sound like they wanted to resist much anyway) to maintain control over what happens to them next (you can understand they don't want them ending up with Government, who might tamper to put more blame on the separatists).
e) The Netherlands and Malaysia DID NEGOTIATE with the separatist leadership about the return of the bodies and black boxes. Successfully.

Kiev did not try to take back the territory until several days after the mortuary train left Torez -- actually 10 days after the crash. They did, however, keep OSCE observers out by claiming the separatists had mined the area.

So preventing the separatists from dealing with the world in their own right??? 10 days too late for that.

I didn't say "preventing" - and nonetheless it is still true - it might not have been possible as early as they liked, but the mileage that the rebels got from "being in control" was definitely something Kiev wanted to minimize - and preferably stop altogether.

And now it more-or-less has.

 

[MikeC]

When specifically cross examined at a White House briefing, the Press person ummed and ahhhed and made statements that sounded very much like the ONLY evidence they had was from social media.

they said no such thing - it was CT's who managed to make that interpretation.

What the lady ACTUALLY said was that there was a range of evidence, public and secret, and the social media was the easiest to talk about - the video is discussed here on MB somewhere but I can't find it just at the moment.

Certainly did not produce any satellite images, and said they'd probably be too classified to get released.
.

Exactly!

 

[KAT]

mileage that the rebels got from "being in control" was definitely something Kiev wanted to minimize - and preferably stop altogether.

And now it more-or-less has.

Too late. The political damage is done, to Kiev, to Moscow, to Washington. Millions of people who were not previously aware of the conflict there now are, and won't take their Government's word for things as easily as they may have a few months ago. They all have a bit less elbow room to move.

I wonder when they'll let investigators back again? I wonder what will be left for them to look at? I wonder if they secretly picked up a few shot-up pieces for experts to take a closer look at?

 

[Jason]

Millions of people who were not previously aware of the conflict there now are, and won't take their Government's word for things as easily as they may have a few months ago. They all have a bit less elbow room to move.

Unless you're Russian. The poles overwhelming show support for Putin and his plans for the Ukraine.

 

[KAT]

The poles overwhelming show support for Putin and his plans for the Ukraine.

Poles? what benefit to them is it? or what business of theirs is it,anyway?
As a former Soviet "colony" I don't see them wanting a Russian controlled neighbour and be next in line. So far they are strongly supporting Ukraine.

 

[Jason]

Poles? what benefit to them is it? or what business of theirs is it,anyway?
As a former Soviet "colony" I don't see them wanting a Russian controlled neighbour and be next in line. So far they are strongly supporting Ukraine.

I agree, but I was referring to your earlier post about political damage, not taking their government's word, and no "arm" room. The rest of the world seems to have been affected, but for those living in Russia it's business as usual to be honest with you, sort of oblivious to whats going on in the world

 

[MikeC]

Too late. The political damage is done, to Kiev, to Moscow, to Washington.

??

Not how I see it at all - most of the political damage was actually to the rebels - all the MSM reports here for weeks were about the difficulty the OSCE and investigators were having gaining access, about bodies unrecovered for days, looting of the wreckage, etc.

Ironically possession of the site seems to have done a lot of damage to the rebels (IMO) due to cack-handed incompetence

Millions of people who were not previously aware of the conflict there now are, and won't take their Government's word for things as easily as they may have a few months ago. They all have a bit less elbow room to move.

I have no idea what you are referring to here.

I wonder when they'll let investigators back again? I wonder what will be left for them to look at? I wonder if they secretly picked up a few shot-up pieces for experts to take a closer look at?

who is "they"??

 

[Danver]

If, indeed, Ukraine planes shot down MH17, then what would Kiev do with the planes? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/23/rebels-ukrainian-fighter-jets-mh17
On a related subject, Who appoints these "rebel spokespersons"? How do you get to be one? What kind of uniform do you wear?

Didnt they say they saw pilots coming down on parachutes out of the big smoke on the mh 17? several witnesses said that.. of course in russian