MH17: Evidence a Missile was Used. Shrapnel, etc.

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TEEJ

Senior Member.


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/1d6a9ac2-10e3-11e4-b116-00144feabdc0.html#axzz387cQkALB

Other images of wreckage that possibly show warhead/shrapnel damage?








Further wreckage images at following link. I've checked and no graphic content at time of upload.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/sets/72157645790319631

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/sets/72157645790319631/page2/



 
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TEEJ

Senior Member.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/mh17-evidence-tampering-fears-cockpit-was-hacked-into-says-osce-1457823

On UK Sky News today there was in interview with OSCE observer Michael Bociurkiw. He claimed that the cockpit section had been cut into and that he has documented it and will pass on his observations. Of course will all the photographs coming out it should be very useful for investigators to establish any suspicious activity. Of course it could be purely in relation to recovery of bodies.

If there was any tampering or removal or wreckage then they obviously missed the port nose section. That piece will be crucial to the investigators and obvously now very hard for that piece to go missing after it has been photographed. Morbid to think about it but the reality is that the bodies of the pilots are likely to hold the evidence of the type of warhead used.



 

SR1419

Senior Member.
Also there is no concrete proof _yet_ that the plane was even shot down by an missile.
The shrapnel damage photos on the Flight MH17 News thread look pretty compelling. The photo source and discussion is in a report in the Financial Times: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/1d6a9ac2-10e3-11e4-b116-00144feabdc0.html#axzz38D7cynSD

(Edit- sorry sort of OT for this thread.)

As David pointed out, the shrapnel damage is highly indicative of a fragmentary warhead which is designed to explode near the target and shower with projectiles- which is exactly what the SA-11 is.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...0140722&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=25300769&_r=0





 
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Soulfly

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Would the shrapnel damage be able to show which direction the missile came from? Could the damage to he left side of the cockpit mean the missile came from the NE where the pics of the Buk are located? I would think the damage would be localized to the side of the plane facing the direction the missile came from. It is also possible the missile could pass the plane and detonate on the opposite side though.
 

Mick West

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Would the shrapnel damage be able to show which direction the missile came from? Could the damage to he left side of the cockpit mean the missile came from the NE where the pics of the Buk are located? I would think the damage would be localized to the side of the plane facing the direction the missile came from. It is also possible the missile could pass the plane and detonate on the opposite side though.
The missile could in theory explode pretty much anywhere relative to the plane. It does not have to hit it, just explode in proximity.
 

Soulfly

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Banned
The missile could in theory explode pretty much anywhere relative to the plane. It does not have to hit it, just explode in proximity.
I understand that. Some of the missiles are designed to do that. And that is what leads me to believe the damage would be more localized to one side of the plane. In any case the shrapnel damage will be able to show where the missile detonated. I'm just guessing it will be shown the missile was fired from the north or northeast from the crash site.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Does this change reports or speculation that the tail was hit and caused the loss of flight as well as opening the plane?
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
Does this change reports or speculation that the tail was hit and caused the loss of flight as well as opening the plane?
I recall seeing a photo (somewhere, posted on MB) of shrapnel damage in the horizontal stabilizer. Yes, once the Stab is gone, the airplane will pitch nose-down violently, and begin to break up from extreme G forces and the aerodynamic stresses.

Center of Gravity is forward of Center of Lift, and the Stab acts downward, to "balance":
 

Jason

Senior Member
I recall seeing a photo (somewhere, posted on MB) of shrapnel damage in the horizontal stabilizer. Yes, once the Stab is gone, the airplane will pitch nose-down violently, and begin to break up from extreme G forces and the aerodynamic stresses.

Center of Gravity is forward of Center of Lift, and the Stab acts downward, to "balance":
Does anyone have a layout of the debri field yet showing where the tail ended up, fuselage, and cockpit etc etc etc. Couldn't a map of the debri field also give us a better idea of what happened after it was impacted.
 

Jason

Senior Member
I'm not an expert, but looking at this debri field, the main impact site in particular, one could summize the plane came down on a sharp angle, right. Sometimes in plane crashes you can see a trail of where the ground was moved prior to the explosion. I would think based on these images that the pilots had "0" control of this plane.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I'm not an expert, but looking at this debri field, the main impact site in particular, one could summize the plane came down on a sharp angle, right. Sometimes in plane crashes you can see a trail of where the ground was moved prior to the explosion. I would think based on these images that the pilots had "0" control of this plane.
Quite clearly it had broken up in mid air. So control was not really a possibility.
 

Jason

Senior Member
Quite clearly it had broken up in mid air. So control was not really a possibility.
But if the plane landed on its belly first and pushed forward before blowing up we would see that impression or disturbed earth prior to the "charred site". We don't, so it probably came down in a steep angle. If it came down in a steep angle, and the lighter parts are close to it (within a few thousand feet or so), they probably broke up due to g's and much closer to the surface, rather than upon impact. That's what I'm trying to figure out.
 
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MikeC

Closed Account
I don't think it is - it might be the tail though - the cockpit an "one turbine" are said to be a kilometer "apart", and the tail 10 km away in this Daily Mail article - the photo there is zoomable, but there's not much definition so it doesn't really help.
 

Mick West

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does this photo show the cockpit in relation to the other debris??

View attachment 8120

it comes from this article that is heavy on it all being a US conspiracy.
Rozsypne has been mentions as a debris location, but it's not entirely clear it that was simple used as a nearby village of size. It does not make much sense with the flight path.

The circled area in that image is something that was there before the crash.
 

Chew

Senior Member.
A not-entirely-off-topic nitpick: fragments from a fragmentation warhead are technically called "fragments", not "shrapnel". "Shrapnel" is making its way into the common lexicon as a synonym for fragments even among experts so who cares but for now please be aware of the difference in case technical issues come up.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
A not-entirely-off-topic nitpick: fragments from a fragmentation warhead are technically called "fragments", not "shrapnel". "Shrapnel" is making its way into the common lexicon as a synonym for fragments even among experts so who cares but for now please be aware of the difference in case technical issues come up.
Might be a lost cause now, with the widespread usage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_fragmentation
It's probably pretty safe to assume that they mean fragments when they say shrapnel.
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
A not-entirely-off-topic nitpick: fragments from a fragmentation warhead are technically called "fragments", not "shrapnel". "Shrapnel" is making its way into the common lexicon as a synonym for fragments even among experts so who cares but for now please be aware of the difference in case technical issues come up.
I think you're getting into semantics.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/shrapnel
shrap·nel(shrpnl)
n. pl. shrapnel
1.
Fragments from an exploded artillery shell, mine, or bomb.
2.
a.
A 19th-century artillery shell containing metal balls, designed to explode in the air above enemytroops.
b. The metal balls in such a weapon.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
I think general usage has trumped the original technical difference - from google's define function:

and from Dic.com:

 

MikeC

Closed Account
I don't think it is - it might be the tail though - the cockpit an "one turbine" are said to be a kilometer "apart", and the tail 10 km away in this Daily Mail article - the photo there is zoomable, but there's not much definition so it doesn't really help.
And no - apparently the tail isn't 10km away -



Still curious where the cockpit is in all this
 

Jason

Senior Member
Still curious where the cockpit is in all this
I agree! Media has been talking about how the rebels sawed it in half, but the only thing I found was this pick, and that it was located where the first bodies were found. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/22/ukraine-mh17-bodies-russia/12981325/
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
And no - apparently the tail isn't 10km away -



Still curious where the cockpit is in all this
That's the remains of a wing in the bottom right there. [Edit: No, it's part of the tail]



This looks like it could be on the same road (with the light brown wheat field behind)


as does this (same pieces from another angle)
 
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Mumbles

Active Member
I agree! Media has been talking about how the rebels sawed it in half, but the only thing I found was this pick, and that it was located where the first bodies were found. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/22/ukraine-mh17-bodies-russia/12981325/
That's part of the tail section. The fairing at right is beneath the rudder, and the cutout where the horizontal stabiliser was.
 

Mumbles

Active Member
I don't think MAS puts its logo on its wings, so I'm pretty sure that is the tail.
Agreed. That's the vertical stabiliser/tail fin. There is an identifiable section of wing or horizontal stabiliser in some of the pics though.
 

Mumbles

Active Member
That's the remains of a wing in the bottom right there.



This looks like it could be on the same road (with the light brown wheat field behind)


as does this (same pieces from another angle)
That's the same section of tail wreckage and remnants of one of the horizontal stabilisers. It's lying inverted in these pics.
 

Jason

Senior Member
That's part of the tail section. The fairing at right is beneath the rudder, and the cutout where the horizontal stabiliser was.
Thanks, it was inlcuded with the story about the cockpit, so I thought it belonged to the nose
 

Jason

Senior Member
That's the same section of tail wreckage and remnants of one of the horizontal stabilisers. It's lying inverted in these pics.
Can you find any photos of the cockpit because I can't anywhere? Why would photos of the cockpit not be avialable I wonder?
 

Mumbles

Active Member
The only definite cockpit area wreckage I have seen are the images already in this thread. There might be others, but accounts are emerging today that cockpit wreckage may have been tampered with or removed.
 

Jason

Senior Member


@TEEJ do you know where this peice was found by the way. I can't locate that concrete pole it's leaning against in any of the photos. This is part of the cockpit..
 
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BombDr

Senior Member.
Would the shrapnel damage be able to show which direction the missile came from? Could the damage to he left side of the cockpit mean the missile came from the NE where the pics of the Buk are located? I would think the damage would be localized to the side of the plane facing the direction the missile came from. It is also possible the missile could pass the plane and detonate on the opposite side though.
You are right, but you also have to consider secondary fragmentation, which in this case is pieces of the aircraft being broken up and becoming fragmentation themselves, and other secondary forces on the structure such as fuel ignition and combustion, any pressurised gasses being rapidly released etc.

This is why its so important that all the wreckage is carefully logged and recorded, forensically handled, and a robust passage of custody established, and not have a group of thugs, looters and locals all moving stuff around and posing for photos. You then have the worlds media turning up and doing their own rummaging, and some even having the nerve to be disgusted by the militiamen, whilst contaminating the crime-scene themselves.
 

sulman

New Member
Hello all, with regard to the remains of the cockpit, please see the following images (and do look at the rest of the gallery for other images of the site). I believe these are from a journalist working the site. None of the images are graphic.

The cockpit plus around 40 feet of the structure is here. In this image you are looking at the nose from the 2 O'Clock position. The flight deck floor is angled upward nearly vertical. Visible are the throttle console, the pedestal, standby flight instrument screens, the base of a control column, and the tracks for the seats.

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/14715119004/


Straight at the starboard side:

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/14694514176/


Another angle, broken window frames and the remnants of the windscreen wiper housing (helpful to visualise the actual aircraft).

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/14717505025/


The remains of a crew seat, forward of the wreckage, again notable for possible shrapnel damage.

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/14737377433/


Of note are the perforations in the flightdeck floor, particularly under the commander's seat (on the port side). These are the 5 pence size holes with the primer showing underneath.


I do not know where this is in relation to the whole crash site. Also, the entire roof structure appears to be missing, presumably it separated in the air as part of the breakup sequence.
 
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WeedWhacker

Senior Member
This is chilling, because I am VERY familiar with the arrangement, and colors, of the cockpit (or "Flight Deck", in Boeing parlance).

Stunning, is all I can add.........

the primer ....
Here, you of course refer to zinc chromate...the 'lime-green' color most associated with airplanes, as a corrosion inhibitor.
 

Jason

Senior Member
This is chilling, because I am VERY familiar with the arrangement, and colors, of the cockpit (or "Flight Deck", in Boeing parlance).

Stunning, is all I can add.........



Here, you of course refer to zinc chromate...the 'lime-green' color most associated with airplanes, as a corrosion inhibitor.
If those are pictures of the cockpit, does it seem weird that none of the area is charred or burnt. Does anyone know where the cockpit landed in comparison to the main crash site. I see a sunflower farm in the backdrop and a brown house or blg
 
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