# Let's debunk my (very simple) perpetuum mobile

#### Stevan Gvozdenovic

##### Member
nah I don't think so, but there is another idea

what if there was a device at the bottom which would change the shape of the "open ball" so it would become buoyant and similar device at the top that would change the shape back so it would sink again when filled with balls? If the ball was made of elastic material in theory it could be possible, the question is however how much energy that would use especially at the bottom with high water pressure.

#### Stevan Gvozdenovic

##### Member
so here comes the next idea

forget small balls, there is just one elastic big ball with two valves, one at the top one at the bottom, it's made from material denser than water(on this picture the ball is full of air, without pumping it out) and at the top it's connected to upper pump via upper valve, the air is sucked out and it sinks, at the bottom it's connected to bottom valve and bottom pump, the air is pumped in so the ball goes up, the rectangle on the left side is kind of battery (or "median" pump) that stores the energy since when it's on the top and air gets sucked out of the ball it actually produces power which is stored in that battery and used at the bottom for pumping the air in (granted there would be some losses).

The rest is same like before (ball is connected to string which rotates the coil etc.).

Anybody gets this or it's overcomplicated?

#### Mick West

Staff member
nah I don't think so, but there is another idea

what if there was a device at the bottom which would change the shape of the "open ball" so it would become buoyant and similar device at the top that would change the shape back so it would sink again when filled with balls? If the ball was made of elastic material in theory it could be possible, the question is however how much energy that would use especially at the bottom with high water pressure.

Essentially inflating with vacuum. Imagine a device that slides out like a telescope. It really a different way of moving energy around. At the bottom you are storing energy in the ball by making it bigger and less dense (although really what you are doing is displacing water). You then recover the energy as the ball rises by the motion of the ball. There's no win, and friction pretty much immediately takes away the energy.

#### Mick West

Staff member
the air is pumped in so the ball goes up

Same thing, you are adding energy to it by displacing water. There's no gain.

#### Stevan Gvozdenovic

##### Member
I know but the coil could be made so it makes the energy both ways (with reverse mode or something like that), so you would have ball making energy going up and going down and at the top when it pushes the air out, so you have 3 ways of making energy and only one taking it up.

#### WeedWhacker

##### Senior Member
"Potential Energy"

A well-known concept. There IS "potential" out there, in the Universe. We just must learn how to 'tap into' it. (Besides the obvious, of course....).

#### Mick West

Staff member
I know but the coil could be made so it makes the energy both ways (with reverse mode or something like that), so you would have ball making energy going up and going down and at the top when it pushes the air out, so you have 3 ways of making energy and only one taking it up.

But the "making" energy (turning the coil) is also "taking" energy. i.e. it is a retarding force on the ball.

You can do an infinite number of variants on this, but at some point you should try doing the math.

#### Gundersen

##### Senior Member.
I would love to build this one:

#### KAT

##### Active Member
oh there is the flaw now if only it could be possible to kick the small balls out at the bottom without water entering in, but I doubt water pressure would allow it

Why does it have to be small balls in and out? Make the big one closed so it floats. Don't go opening it, ever, as that makes it fill up with water and sink. Just throw a net over it that has weights on. that would make it sink. Then remove the net and it will float up again. This is also easier than having to shovel up loose ones each time. The net dropping and removing can be done by the right arrangement of strings, associated with the outside one.

#### Mick West

Staff member
Why does it have to be small balls in and out? Make the big one closed so it floats. Don't go opening it, ever, as that makes it fill up with water and sink. Just throw a net over it that has weights on. that would make it sink. Then remove the net and it will float up again. This is also easier than having to shovel up loose ones each time. The net dropping and removing can be done by the right arrangement of strings, associated with the outside one.

But you can only do that once, as then the net will be at the bottom.

#### Pete Tar

##### Senior Member.
Is there a material that could sit halfway in the water column, react to the heat of the sun and rise during the day, then sink at night?
Any practical use to that motion, and would that technically be perpetual motion?

#### Jason

##### Senior Member
Is there a material that could sit halfway in the water column, react to the heat of the sun and rise during the day, then sink at night?
Any practical use to that motion, and would that technically be perpetual motion?
But then you would be dealing with evaporation, wouldn't you..

#### Pete Tar

##### Senior Member.
A sealed column of water.

#### Mick West

Staff member
Is there a material that could sit halfway in the water column, react to the heat of the sun and rise during the day, then sink at night?
Any practical use to that motion, and would that technically be perpetual motion?

No, it would be very inefficient solar power.

#### Stevan Gvozdenovic

##### Member

maybe there could be a way for ball to get full of air using that underwater pocket

#### Mick West

Staff member
maybe there could be a way for ball to get full of air using that underwater pocket
Then you are just using up the potential energy stored in the air pocket.

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