Jeffery Epstein's Death

Agent K

Active Member
The other problem is that the plea deal actually has a lot of legal baggage attached to it that would have had to have been settled in court and that may not have turned out in Mr. Epstein's favor.
Acosta's sweetheart deal also has conspiracy theories attached, since Acosta told the Trump transition team that he was told that "Epstein ‘belonged to intelligence’ and to leave it alone.”
https://www.thedailybeast.com/jeffrey-epsteins-sick-story-played-out-for-years-in-plain-sight
When he was asked about it, Acosta responded with a non-denial denial.

"It Sure Looks Like Jeffrey Epstein Was a Spy—But Whose?"
https://observer.com/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-spy-intelligence-work/
"Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell 'boasted of collecting compromising material on the rich and famous'"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/13/jeffrey-epstein-ghislaine-maxwell-boasted-collecting-compromising/
 

Joe_the_Joe

New Member
To clarify on legal baggage, from the blog of Solomon L. Wisenberg, regarding the indictment unsealed on July 8:
https://lawprofessors.typepad.com/whitecollarcrime_blog/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-case-materials.html
 

Agent K

Active Member
Epstein was a federal informant and a "key federal witness."
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article220097825.html
 

Getoffthisplanet

Active Member
I suppose Epstein could have lied to the lawyers so that he might then be able to finish himself off later...or did he genuinely think he would win on double jeopardy?

https://nypost.com/2019/08/14/jeffrey-epsteins-last-words-to-lawyer-before-his-jailhouse-death/
 

Joe_the_Joe

New Member
The problem with trying to speculate as to his mental state without supporting evidence is that being suicidal isn't usually a long-term emotional state, generally being spontaneous instead. Failed suicide attempts tend to be embarrassing for the victim. Depression itself is notorious for being hidden behind a mask of optimism. However, the recent source cited certainly does not help the notion that he committed suicide at the very least, even if for the aforementioned reasons it does not necessarily help any other theories.
 

igoddard

Active Member
Hot off the press, first insights into the autopsy:
Comments by an expert:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/autopsy-finds-broken-bones-in-jeffrey-epsteins-neck-deepening-questions-around-his-death/2019/08/14/d09ac934-bdd9-11e9-b873-63ace636af08_story.html

The hyoid bone...
 

Getoffthisplanet

Active Member
Is it common for a medical examiner to hold off the results of an autopsy based on something that is not strictly forensic pathology?
 

deirdre

Moderator
Staff member
Is it common for a medical examiner to hold off the results of an autopsy based on something that is not strictly forensic pathology?
they determine homicide or suicide. I just grabbed the first link off Google, so you can look for better sources


https://sudc.org/family-services/member-services-access/bereavementseries/topic3
 

Getoffthisplanet

Active Member

Agent K

Active Member

Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member
Yes. I speculate that they were panicking as they realized the magnitude of the situation.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/08/13/epstein-s-death-highlights-a-staffing-crisis-in-federal-prisons
https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/12/politics/jeffrey-epstein-substitute-guard-overtime/index.html
I previously speculated that they began CPR on an obviously dead body.
 
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Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20973326
Not that rare, especially in older people.

The media is taking this one factor and running with it. But there are other factors. E.g. the condition of the back of the neck. Trauma to the back of the neck indicates someone was strangling the victim - i.e. pressure from the ligature is pretty even all around the neck. Hanging is more consistent with less trauma on the back of the neck. I'm sure there are other factors.
 
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Getoffthisplanet

Active Member
No shortage of broken hyoid studies.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22922547

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18511004

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17720591

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30015282

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3840836

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21793475

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3840836



"Laryngohyoid fractures in hanging victims are one of the most studied and paradoxically contradictory topics in forensic pathology"
 
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Agent K

Active Member
https://www.foxnews.com/us/epstein-new-york-lockup-suicides
Kind of puts things in perspective. Sounds like they were not used to dealing with suicidal inmates on a regular basis.
Sounds like they were very good at preventing suicides and suicide attempts, which are much more frequent in other prisons.
 

Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member
Feb., 2018

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2018/02/trumps-budget-cuts-are-forcing-teachers-and-nurses-to-work-as-federal-prison-guards/


July, 2018

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/federal-prison-bureau-trump_n_5b2bf738e4b00295f15a990a

This continued mystified cries of, "How could this happen"? ... or "What's wrong with this prison"?...
This is bordering on the disingenuous.
 
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igoddard

Active Member
Someone tried to unpixelate them?

Edit: And the New York Post logo is covering up the second tray of food on the seat.
Yes, and there are two phones, two cups, two meals. Kinda like two people.

But the NY Post's story was:
And why would she bother to tell a paparazzi the title of the book she was reading? That sounds utterly contrived. And the book is on murdered CIA agents. That has a pranky smell, imo, like a conspiracy-theory joke.

Note also that all the contents on the table are markedly shifted around from one to the next photo, indicating passage of time and much ado. As well note the different patrons in the surrounding tables from one to the next photo. So presumably this paparazzi was hovering over her for like 45 minutes. And she didn't call the police? A simple explanation seems to be that the "paparazzi" was actually the second person for the second phone, cup and meal.
 
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Svein E.

New Member
The most obvious explanation is that Epstein killed himself because he was looking at spending the rest of his life in jail as a child sex offender. This leads to a "let it happen" conspiracy theory, where someone arranged for him to not be on suicide watch, knowing he'd tried to kill himself before.

This is very high profile, and will attract a lot of attention. Expect the theories to grow in complexity in the coming months.
I disagree. He still had a chance with hoping for some help. I don't think he would kill himself before the final verdict, and was placed in prison, knowing he probably never getting out as a free man.
 
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Dan Wilson

Senior Member
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/468071-pathologist-epstein-body-shows-signs-of-homicide
Seems like this may stir the pot a bit more despite the fractures being common in men of Epstein's age and circumstances.
 
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180out

New Member
Seems like this may stir the pot a bit more despite the fractures being common in men of Epstein's age and circumstances.
The questions below are sincere questions:

Common in men of Epstein’s age and circumstances? An old, convicted hebephile who found himself yet again facing prosecution and conviction for sex crimes with minors and human trafficking; a flesh peddler who had a little black book containing the phone numbers of powerful people with the financial wherewithal and connections to have him snuffed out in a prison where El Chapo was under video surveillance, but evidently not Epstein himself? The same Jeffery Epstein whose lawyer argued that he was attacked by his cell mate Nicholas Tartaglione, a former New York police officer who was arrested in December 2016 on charges of killing four men—one of them by putting a zip tie around one victim’s throat, choking him to death—in a cocaine distribution conspiracy, who was sharing a cell with Epstein in Manhattan’s Metropolitan Correctional Center at the time Epstein was found semiconscious in the fetal position with marks on his neck on July 23, 2019 which led to him being hospitalized temporarily? That’s why he was not on suicide watch.

Jeffery Epstein's former cellmate Nicholas Tartaglione requests move from MCC, alleging threats from prison guards. (August 21, 2019)
This also seems like it is meant to stir the pot, as you say.

With regards to injuries found after being found dead on his knees after sounds were heard coming from his cell, I wonder whether they were from the previous incident on July 23, 2019. Can you break the hyoid and live? Can it be fractured and you be functional after a short hospitalization? If so, could those details have been omitted from the medical record that would have been produced due to a stay in the infirmary? (Now I have “St. James Infirmary Blues” stuck in my head—Epstein’s island was Little Saint James)

Here’s some thoughts regarding kneeling/hanging:
  • This is actually a common method of suicide. When kneeling, it takes very little pressure by the ligature to cause loss of consciousness, the weight of the head being the main force followed by the weight of the body. At this point, the person can do nothing to help themselves even if they wanted to. There soon develops coma and this method of hanging is regarded as painless and somehow more acceptable than typical hanging because death is caused by interrupted blood flow not asphyxia by compression of the airway.
  • When people are weighing up the possibility of hanging themselves, wondering about it, they might put a rope in place and test themselves against it. If they do this, it is in fact very easy by putting pressure on the carotid sinuses that are in the side of the neck to slip out of consciousness and falling forward to end up asphyxiated. If you have begun with your feet on the ground you can end up kneeling or close to kneeling.
The second thought makes me wonder if Epstein could have just messed up. I personally messed up while testing things before making a go at hanging myself with a length of small diameter braided cable—no drop, just slipped, leaving my toes inches above my patio. A friend just happened by looking for me, and I slipped trying to get the cable off of my neck and hide what I was planning. He came around to the backyard after I didn’t answer the door. I probably was dangling/dancing a few seconds before he realized what he was seeing and he bear hugged me, lifting me up so I could remove the cable.

I was a teenager on antidepressant (AD) meds that, when I became a legal adult and was able to stop taking them, were found to increase suicidal thoughts in teens, resulting in an increased risk of suicidal behavior; in bipolar patients, ADs taken alone can cause antidepressant-induced mania, psychosis, and other disturbing problems (e.g., akathisia, akathisia-induced impulsivity, suicidal/homicidal thoughts) … The majority of antidepressants appear ineffective in treating bipolar depression. Withdrawl from psychiatric meds can be painful and lengthy; even with extremely slow tapering, some patients will develop some symptoms or will be unable to completely discontinue the drug.

Considering that atypical antipsychotics (AP) are commonly given to prisoners for any reason at all, when they kick in when you start the kneeling/hanging process, you'd be unable to save yourself even while realizing that you might be making a mistake, wishing to stop what you started. You could also lose balance and fall forward with enough force to fracture the hyoid. You could still groan in agony, or a range of other noises, but you wouldn’t be able to do anything other than that.
  1. Could that account for the shrieking heard coming from Epstein’s cell prior to being found dead on his knees with a sheet wrapped around his neck?
  2. Did the post-mortem state whether there were any substances such as AD/AP meds in his system?
  3. Is it known whether he was taking any AD/AP meds prior to his arrest, and if so, did he stop taking them as a result, or maybe start taking them?

 
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deirdre

Moderator
Staff member
Seems like this may stir the pot a bit more despite the fractures being common in men of Epstein's age and circumstances.
it may stir the pot because you left out key information. Namely, Baden did not do his own autopsy or any of his own investigation. according to the Fox interview (quoted and linked in your link). he only attended the NYC medical examiners autopsy,

which was also confirmed back in August
and around 3 mins in to the Fox interview, he talks more about how she couldn't come to a conclusion based on the autopsy and she needed more information. A week later she declared it a suicide but they haven't released the information she used to declare it a suicide. That seems to be the brother's main (and legitimate) beef and that's why he is speaking out on the brother's behalf.

Source: https://video.foxnews.com/v/6099044550001/#sp=show-clips


basically this is not new news. Epstein's brother wants information released as to the suicide decision, as well it should be.
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member
it may stir the pot because you left out key information.
I think it will stir the pot because people will not bother to look into the details here. Baden points to the broken hyoid bones as his evidence favoring a homicide but, as has been discussed here, this is not evidence of a homicide. This is a conspiracy that usually non-conspiracy minded people are ready to believe and this story has already made a big splash despite it having no substance.
 

Agent K

Active Member
"Surveillance video of Jeffrey Epstein’s cell during (first) suicide attempt was destroyed: prosecutors"
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-epstein-suicide-attempt-video-20200109-3pyok6bj7vac3gnt77hp5fsmom-story.html
 
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