James Fetzer Claims Lenny Pozner Forged Death Certificate

[Redwood]

Certainly a serious charge, if true. Fetzer is NOT claiming that the certificate was officially issued with false information on it; he is specifically accusing Pozner of forging an official document. (Why the conspiracy couldn't get the state of Connecticut to issue a "real" certificate with false information on it is beyond me.)
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/0...5644050516915_695644050516915#f30c2dd3d233274



I suggested to Fetzer that he simply call the funeral home of Abraham L. Green and son, and ask them if they filled out the certificate. (203) 255-8993

 

[deirdre]

suggested to Fetzer that he simply call the funeral home of Abraham L. Green and son, and ask them if they filled out the certificate. (203) 255-8993

well, bully for you.

and the point of posting a murdered child's death certificate over a he said/she said OPINION presented with NO evidence, is what exactly?

 

[WeedWhacker]

Dee, is it not the point that it was James Fetzer who is the wrongdoer, here? (Or did I miss something, some nuance?)

 

[derwoodii]

sos im lost redwood, are you supporting the CT claim or as i think giving us evidence to show its untrue

 

[deirdre]

Dee, is it not the point that it was James Fetzer who is the wrongdoer, here? (Or did I miss something, some nuance?)

Metabunk debunks claims of evidence. no claim of evidence was presented.

 

[Pete Tar]

Fair point.
Removed the death certificate as it is really a fairly personal document. Deirdre has asked for Lenny's input.
Sure you meant no offense Redwood.
As the level of nitpicking over minutiae involved is pretty pathological, probably just worth ignoring this one for now, unless anyone has a clear response to this sort of thing -

(4) Now look at the capital "A" in Box 12 for Residence (Alpine). It is identical to the capital "A" in Box 22 for Mailing Address (Alpine). It is also identical to the capital "A" in Box 33 for Funeral Home. This is totally as expected, is it not? Read on.

(5) Note that the capital "A" in question above in three different boxes has a small flag at its pinnacle. Compare that to the capital "A", without the small flag in Box 4, Time of Death, Box 26, City or Town, Box 27, County of Death, and Box 39, Time Pronounced, and in Box 46, Time of Injury.

(6) Compare Box 1, "Noah," with Box 7, "November," and you will clearly see that the spacing between the "N" and the "o" is quite different.

(7) Compare Box 1, the "N" in "Noah," with Box 26, the "N" in "SANDY." They are clearly different.

 

[CW Wade]

The thing that is being avoided is really checking it. For $20 this certificate can be ordered from Newtown and verified. This is a state sealed document, as good as currency. This is presumed valid by any court. The only way to debunk it is to spend $20 and go order the DC and compare. Conjecture as to a state document that is readily available serves no purpose. Lenny has challenged ANYONE to order it from Newtown if they doubt it, so that challenge remains. Not a single person who doubts the authenticity has stepped up to the challenge, instead relying contrived analysis. Order the document if its doubted.

 

[Bill]

They failed to point out that some of the information was filled in by hand. That must be a sign of conspiracy on somebody's part. [...]

 

[Redwood]

Redwood said: ↑
suggested to Fetzer that he simply call the funeral home of Abraham L. Green and son, and ask them if they filled out the certificate. (203) 255-8993

well, bully for you.

and the point of posting a murdered child's death certificate over a he said/she said OPINION presented with NO evidence, is what exactly?

Well, perhaps I should have titled this thread differently. Maybe something like "Fetzer claims oddities in Pozner death certificate, proving forgery", and then copied and pasted a glob of text from Fetzer's piece, or summarized his argument. I prefer, however, to simply post a link, and let the reader judge.

Fetzer is claiming that there are two different type fonts on the death certificate, and it appears that this is true. However, this is not sufficient to prove forgery. It's quite possible that the death certificate was filled out in two different places, the chief medical examiner's and the funeral home, and this seems to me to be the case.

But arguing about fonts is silly since there's a much simpler approach: call the funeral home. That's why I listed the phone number in the comments thread of Fetzer's piece.

In the case of Pres. Obama's "long form" birth certificate, there were no live witnesses to the birth to settle the question once and for all, as it happened over 50 years ago. But Sandy Hook is a recent event, so there are actual live witnesses who signed the certificate. Capisce?

If the funeral home denies filling out the death certificate, Fetzer has powerful evidence that it is indeed a forgery. If they attest to having filled it out, Fetzer has an even bigger hill to climb. It's possible, in principle, that a person could forge another person's signature to a document, then somehow induce that other person to falsely attest to the signature being real; but that makes no sense. Why not have them sign it for real?

Likewise, it's possible in principle that the information on the certificate is false. But that would make it a false report, not a forgery. But as an official document, it would be self-authenticating in any court of law, and be prima facie evidence of death. (It could still be impeached, such as by providing evidence that Noah Pozner is still alive.)

As it is, I suspect that Fetzer will soon be hearing from Pozner's lawyers, having accused Pozner of a specific crime, and Pozner having been informed of it. (Trust me.) Many parents might let it slide, but Pozner strikes me as a pugnacious personality who would enjoy putting the screws to Fetzer.

 

[Hevach]

It's pretty common for medical certificates (birth or death mainly) to be filled out in stages by different means, and it's pretty common for hospitals to have crazily inconsistent systems between departments. The declaring doctor will fill in the immediately relevant information, cause of death is often filled out later in the morgue, and records finishes it up with identifying information. Fixed information might be stored in a template or even preprinted depending on how old the hospital's system for handling forms is.

We see four separate typesettings here, and all the "anomalies" happen comparing between settings. All this means is that the form wasn't filled out in one pass and the workers who did it did not have a unified system.

(order of settings is my hypothesis as to the order they were added)
First: Name in box 1. Sloppy work, slanted, clearly not the same "No" as in box 7, not just spacing is different but serifs and the width of some letters. Probably done first before handing the form to the declaring doctor. That assumes this victim was identified upon arrival, this could well have been later, even last, if the victim was identified later.
Second: Time and date of death, location of death, declaring facility (boxes 3, 4, 24, 25, 26, 27). Probably done by declaring doctor as these are all the pertinent immediate details that doctor is responsible for.
Third: Cause of death and specifics. Probably done by mortician after confirming cause of death.
Fourth: All identifying and miscellaneous information about the victim. Probably added last by records. Similar to the first set, but not the same, and this pass was done with a bit more care.

A high end hospital will probably have a more consistent system, but there's no legal requirement for them to, and most hospitals are not high end (even if they look that way to patients - very often those fancy touch screens the doctors carry around are paid for by stuffing the departments you don't see like billing and documents with hand-me-down Windows XP or 2000 boxes).

My wife's birth certificate has two different typewriter fonts (one of which was clearly done in two separate passes as alignment is inconsistent) and dot matrix on it, while mine is all one font with consistent spacing. Fetzer would claim that makes my wife's suspicious, but in fact it's mine that's the "fake," issued to my adoptive parents when my original was sealed.

 

[deirdre]

It's pretty common for medical certificates (birth or death mainly) to be filled out in stages by different means, and it's pretty common for hospitals to have crazily inconsistent systems between departments. The declaring doctor will fill in the immediately relevant information, cause of death is often filled out later in the morgue, and records finishes it up with identifying information. Fixed information might be stored in a template or even preprinted depending on how old the hospital's system for handling forms is.

The child was never in a hospital. He remained at the school until early morning 12/15. At which point he was transferred to the medical examiners office. Then to the funeral home.

The medical examiner had arrived at the school around noon 12/14.

 

[deirdre]

As it is, I suspect that Fetzer will soon be hearing from Pozner's lawyers, having accused Pozner of a specific crime, and Pozner having been informed of it. (Trust me.) Many parents might let it slide, but Pozner strikes me as a pugnacious personality who would enjoy putting the screws to Fetzer.

Mr. Pozner is very concerned with transparency and has for the last few months made himself available (on Facebook and Google) to answer any questions people may have. This being the case, I believe it is best if you just ask him if this is his intention vs speculating.

Mr Pozner's take on this issue seems to be that Fetzer is just blowing smoke and doesn't really believe his own bunk.

 

[jhodgski]

According to the BBC, it appears Noah Pozner actually died in the Pakistan massacre, so maybe Fetzer was on to something.

 

[deirdre]

According to the BBC, it appears Noah Pozner actually died in the Pakistan massacre, so maybe Fetzer was on to something.

Accusations with sources are meaningless. please see posting guidelines.

The pakistan pic is discussed here https://www.metabunk.org/threads/ph...t-pakistani-school-shooting.5454/#post-140120