jomper
Inactive Member
Off you go, then.I'd take that action.
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Off you go, then.I'd take that action.
Meh. He didn't seem to be causing too much trouble on this thread, but then I suppose Mick banned him so he couldn't. A bit like not looking at the evidence in case you find something.Other things that Anders Bjorkman believes:
Are you sure you want to hang your hat with this guy Jomper?
You honestly think that the forensic application of the scientific method eliminates the question of CD on the basis that there was some videotape of the event that didn't record the audio?He's clearly not open to reason
Meh. He didn't seem to be causing too much trouble on this thread, but then I suppose Mick banned him so he couldn't. A bit like not looking at the evidence in case you find something.
You honestly think that the forensic application of the scientific method eliminates the question of CD on the basis that there was some videotape of the event that didn't record the audio?
You honestly think that the forensic application of the scientific method eliminates the question of CD on the basis that there was some videotape of the event that didn't record the audio?
This has been stated here before. Many, many times.External Quote:
13. Did investigators consider the possibility that an explosion caused or contributed to the collapse of WTC 7?
Yes, this possibility was investigated carefully. NIST concluded that blast events inside the building did not occur and found no evidence supporting the existence of a blast event.
In addition, no blast sounds were heard on the audio tracks of video recordings during the collapse of WTC 7 or reported by witnesses. According to calculations by the investigation team, the smallest blast capable of failing the building's critical column would have resulted in a sound level of 130 decibels (dB) to 140 dB at a distance of at least half a mile, if unobstructed by surrounding buildings. This sound level is consistent with a gunshot blast, standing next to a jet plane engine, and more than 10 times louder than being in front of the speakers at a rock concert.
For the building to have been prepared for intentional demolition, walls and/or column enclosures and fireproofing would have to be removed and replaced without being detected. Preparing a column includes steps such as cutting sections with torches, which produces noxious and odorous fumes. Intentional demolition usually requires applying explosive charges to most, if not all, interior columns, not just one or a limited set of columns in a building.
And I have responded to it, but still you keep on repeating.There were other reasons.
This has been stated here before. Many, many times.External Quote:
13. Did investigators consider the possibility that an explosion caused or contributed to the collapse of WTC 7?
Yes, this possibility was investigated carefully. NIST concluded that blast events inside the building did not occur and found no evidence supporting the existence of a blast event.
In addition, no blast sounds were heard on the audio tracks of video recordings during the collapse of WTC 7 or reported by witnesses. According to calculations by the investigation team, the smallest blast capable of failing the building's critical column would have resulted in a sound level of 130 decibels (dB) to 140 dB at a distance of at least half a mile, if unobstructed by surrounding buildings. This sound level is consistent with a gunshot blast, standing next to a jet plane engine, and more than 10 times louder than being in front of the speakers at a rock concert.
For the building to have been prepared for intentional demolition, walls and/or column enclosures and fireproofing would have to be removed and replaced without being detected. Preparing a column includes steps such as cutting sections with torches, which produces noxious and odorous fumes. Intentional demolition usually requires applying explosive charges to most, if not all, interior columns, not just one or a limited set of columns in a building.
If a tree falls in the woods and no-one hears it, does it make a sound?The lack of audio indicated that there was no use of conventional explosive, wouldn't you agree?
Which is kind of amusing, as many truthers seem to think the simulation results are too accurate, and so they must have fudged the numbers to get them to come out like that.
Involving sixteen floors.
Seven hours later.
Was this building constructed exactly the same, using long-span beams and wall-board-insulated steelwork?
Involving sixteen floors.
Seven hours later.
Was this building constructed exactly the same, using long-span beams and wall-board-insulated steelwork?
Involving sixteen floors.
Seven hours later.
Was this building constructed exactly the same, using long-span beams and wall-board-insulated steelwork?
The complex's main building, the doughnut-shaped structure, was not damaged. The building, which was originally scheduled to open in 2009, did not see any progress towards opening or being visibly repaired by the end of that year. It is currently being repaired,[29] and is still slated to open.External Quote:The initial images of the blaze suggested that the tower might be nearly destroyed. However Rem Koolhaas said that "they are simply rebuilding it as it was, because there was no structural damage."
The lack of audio indicated that there was no use of conventional explosive, wouldn't you agree?
Was there even any audio at all?
One could use "Controlled demolition" to simulate the effects of the fire, sure. You could use explosives, or some kind of thermal lance type thing to cut and weaken connections in just the right order. However there is no evidence this was done. And it was certainly not doe with conventional demolition charges, as it was too quite.
BUt yet again, the point here is that the NIST hypothesis is plausible. It's also by far the simplest hypothesis in the Occam sense. Requiring nothing at all in addition to what was observed. Debris impacts, fires, time, collapse.
In 2004, the Union of Concerned Scientists put out a document charging this administration with "distortion of scientific knowledge for partisan political ends." By the end of the Bush administration, this document had been signed by over 15,000 scientists, including 52 Nobel Laureates and 63 recipients of the National Medal of Science.......
.........Particles of Metal in the Dust: The Deutsche Bank building, which was right next to the Twin Towers, was heavily contaminated by dust produced by their destruction. But Deutsche Bank's insurance company refused to pay for the clean-up, claiming that this dust had not resulted from the destruction of the WTC. So Deutsche Bank hired the RJ Lee Group to do a study, which showed that the dust in the Deutsche Bank was WTC dust, which had a unique signature. Part of this signature was "Spherical iron . . . particles." [20] This meant, the RJ Lee Group said, that iron had "melted during the WTC Event, producing spherical metallic particles." [21] The study even showed that, whereas iron particles constitute only 0.04 percent of normal building dust, they constituted almost 6 percent of WTC Dust – meaning almost 150 times as much as normal. [22]
The RJ Lee study also found that temperatures had been reached "at which lead would have undergone vaporization" [23] – meaning 1,749°C (3,180°F). [24]
Another study was carried out by the US Geological Survey, the purpose of which was to aid the "identification of WTC dust components." Besides also finding iron particles, the scientists involved in this study found that molybdenum had been melted. This finding was especially significant, because this metal does not melt until it reaches 2,623°C (4,753°F).
http://globalresearch.ca/the-mysterious-collapse-of-wtc-seven/15201
So what did the Union of Concerned Scientists say about the dust? Because you quote makes it look like they said something.
RJ Lee was not at all surprised by the microspheres. He expected them.
Well done Muttkat, this particular bit I have always thought the smoking gun for those who argue there was no evidence for controlled demolition.
Oh and there were actually three studies all finding similar results
I brought up this point earlier, but it was ignored. Its not that iron sphericals aren't found in typical concrete dust, its the quantity that was found. Even if you could show that some light weight aggregate was used ( its used quite often ) that contains a higher concentration of iron sphericals, ( unlikely ) you'd still have to explain the molybdenum and lead findings. So there's actually multiple unique characteristics in the debris that does lead one to think high temp demolitions could have been used. Combine that with the eerily similar characteristics of the collapse to a controlled demolition and the very idea that NIST would not consider controlled demolition, simply due to a lack of sufficiently loud explosions, and you end up with the millions of people world wide who just shake there heads in disbelief that NIST could even suggest fires caused this global and symmetrical collapse.
But then again, the true believers will simply overlook the actual data, and instead, wish to consider the blatant suppositions and conjecture NIST uses in order to cobble together its little fairy tale.
I'm still amazed they haven't been sued yet. No court would refute these findings when placed in an objective environment side by side with the NIST scenario.
Thank you, thank you, for the compliment. I've gotten 2 in the last couple days. It's been a rare occurrence around here. Good truthful facts usually get the silent treatment around here.
Yes:
You can hear the noise of the building collapsing, but no explosions.
Compare with actual demolitiosn from similar distances.
Being thats probably an official video from the govt, they probably snuffed out any sounds of any explosions. The govt lied about so many things on 911, its hard to believe anything of the official fairytale, which I believe very little of it. There are various statements from responders as to the building would be coming down.
I'm guessing this is WTC 7 and that this is the alarm for the demolition.
Being thats probably an official video from the govt, they probably snuffed out any sounds of any explosions. The govt lied about so many things on 911, its hard to believe anything of the official fairytale, which I believe very little of it. There are various statements from responders as to the building would be coming down.
I'm guessing this is WTC 7 and that this is the alarm for the demolition.
I forgot to ask who was the other group to do a study? Have you heard of Kurt Sonnenfeld?
How would you know?
So what did the Union of Concerned Scientists say about the dust? Because you quote makes it look like they said something.
RJ Lee was not at all surprised by the microspheres. He expected them.
It's weird because it's wrong.never happened before (steel building collapsing by fires) and probably will never happen again. That is extremely weird.
I think you will find that these people are NOT all "scientists". I think you will find very few "engineers" either. Those "engineers" that "speak up" are saying palpably-untrue things. Their organization also has concealed evidence which, if released, would "damage their position". That's not something you have to do if you are solely interested in truth.If 15000 scientists (and not the least) say something is wrong, the investigation should be done again. Period.
To immediately indicate to an expert that you are wrong, I expect, from my own experience. Does degree level Metallurgy and 38 years in engineering count? I wonder, sometimes.Can someone tell me what the purpose is of going into technical details if you're not an expert
It's weird because it's wrong.
Steel structures have been collapsing due to fires ever since steel has ever been used to construct buildings. Steel is OK and unchanged until its temperature gets to 475 deg C. Temperatures above that, given time, will ALWAYS result in collapse, as the steel slowly becomes plastic as it loses its crystal structure, replacing it with another. A plastic material subject to loading will deform under that load. There are examples on this site.
I think you will find that these people are NOT all "scientists". I think you will find very few "engineers" either. Those "engineers" that "speak up" are saying palpably-untrue things. Their organization also has concealed evidence which, if released, would "damage their position". That's not something you have to do if you are solely interested in truth.
To immediately indicate to an expert that you are wrong, I expect, from my own experience. Does degree level Metallurgy and 38 years in engineering count? I wonder, sometimes.
I believe that in another thread, fly ash was mentioned as a constituent of the cement used to make the concrete, and that small spherules of iron oxide are a normal constituent of fly ash. Sure they were expected, but not in concentrations 150 times what was expected
In 2004, the Union of Concerned Scientists put out a document charging this administration with "distortion of scientific knowledge for partisan political ends." By the end of the Bush administration, this document had been signed by over 15,000 scientists, including 52 Nobel Laureates and 63 recipients of the National Medal of Science.......
.........Particles of Metal in the Dust: The Deutsche Bank building, which was right next to the Twin Towers, was heavily contaminated by dust produced by their destruction. But Deutsche Bank's insurance company refused to pay for the clean-up, claiming that this dust had not resulted from the destruction of the WTC. So Deutsche Bank hired the RJ Lee Group to do a study, which showed that the dust in the Deutsche Bank was WTC dust, which had a unique signature. Part of this signature was "Spherical iron . . . particles." [20] This meant, the RJ Lee Group said, that iron had "melted during the WTC Event, producing spherical metallic particles." [21] The study even showed that, whereas iron particles constitute only 0.04 percent of normal building dust, they constituted almost 6 percent of WTC Dust – meaning almost 150 times as much as normal. [22]
The RJ Lee study also found that temperatures had been reached "at which lead would have undergone vaporization" [23] – meaning 1,749°C (3,180°F). [24]
Another study was carried out by the US Geological Survey, the purpose of which was to aid the "identification of WTC dust components." Besides also finding iron particles, the scientists involved in this study found that molybdenum had been melted. This finding was especially significant, because this metal does not melt until it reaches 2,623°C (4,753°F).
http://globalresearch.ca/the-mysterious-collapse-of-wtc-seven/15201
So its quite obvious that there is another source of these iron sphericals in play here
It's weird because it's wrong.
Oh ? Can you direct us to any other symmetrical collapses exactly synonymous with a controlled demolition due to fire, obviously not. Even the Madrid fire which did experience localized failure over time was absolutely nothing like the WTC 7 global collapse, not even close actually, and thats about the best example of steel weakening and partial collapse I've yet to see. The simple truth is, there is no example you can give to show its even happened once before, let alone that steel structures have been collapsing due to fire ever since steel has been used to construct buildings.
Steel structures have been collapsing due to fires ever since steel has ever been used to construct buildings. Steel is OK and unchanged until its temperature gets to 475 deg C. Temperatures above that, given time, will ALWAYS result in collapse, as the steel slowly becomes plastic as it loses its crystal structure, replacing it with another. A plastic material subject to loading will deform under that load. There are examples on this site.
Beams will react by sagging in towards the heat source, for the most part, columns will compress, but the surrounding connective structures will play a large part in the deformation process. Also steel will retain most of its strength to temps much much higher than 475°C and it will also work harden once the fires begin to subside and as heat transfers throughout the steel structure. IE as soon as the fire begins to cool, the steel will gain more strength than it lost, Hmmmmmmm, I wonder if NIST mentioned anything about that little treasure![]()
The mechanical properties of two fire-resistant (FR) structural steels and an S275 steel have been investigated from room temperature up to 700°C, with the aim of assessing the viability of FR steels. The major focus has been on the tensile and creep properties of the steels at high temperature and the effect of these properties on the fire resistance of model steel beams. It has been found that the FR steels performed significantly better than the S275 at high temperature, retaining 50% of their room temperature strength at a temperature of approximately 650°C. The S275 steel retained 50% strength to a temperature of 550°C, this being consistent with literature values. In creep tests carried out at 600°C, the FR steels also exhibited lower maximum strains and strain rates than the S275. The improved strength reduction factors led to a significant increase in fire resistance for a model steel beam with various floor slab configurations, showing that FR steels can become a practical alternative to conventional structural
The typical office fire burns substantially lower than about 550°C although it may for very brief periods of time ( flash over ) reach about 800°C. Which is one reason substantial safety margins are applied to the engineering process.
11.3.2. At what temperature does a typical fire burn?
The duration and the maximum temperature of a fire in a building compartment depends on several factors including the amount and configuration of available combustibles, ventilation conditions, properties of the compartment enclosure, weather conditions, etc. In common circumstances, the maximum temperature of a fully developed building fire will rarely exceed 1800°F. The average gas temperature in a fully developed fire is not likely to reach 1500°F. Temperatures of fires that have not developed to post-flashover stage will not exceed 1000°F.
I think you will find that these people are NOT all "scientists". I think you will find very few "engineers" either. Those "engineers" that "speak up" are saying palpably-untrue things. Their organization also has concealed evidence which, if released, would "damage their position". That's not something you have to do if you are solely interested in truth.
Ah so you believe there is a conspiracyThat these people are just lying
and that they are concealing evidence damaging to there position
![]()
I'd say there is no finer example of a condition known in psychology as "transference" yet seen on this forum. You have nailed to a tea exactly what NIST is doing and yet wish to blame exactly that on those who are simply pointing out the massive errors within the NIST fairytale. For instance why isn't the huge data pool on ultra high temps existing at WTC 7 even considered within the NIST report.
To immediately indicate to an expert that you are wrong, I expect, from my own experience. Does degree level Metallurgy and 38 years in engineering count? I wonder, sometimes.
Your not the only one with a degreeMight not be an English degree but none the less
I'm kinda surprised at the degree in matallurgy tho or you would have been quick to agree that yellow/white glowing steel ( as clearly seen in multiple photographs of the WTC site ) represents temps of something in the 1100~1200°C range, which is wildly outside the range of any office fire. I'd call that highly suspicious
wouldn't you ?
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/9-...stent-with-a-progressive-collapse.364/page-10Which building examples Jazzy?
Your info doubleplus ungood. Amongst anyone.15000 bad informed people? amongst Nobel Prize winners?
What, me, old boy?I wonder why your tone is so aggressive.
That is a specious claim. Any claim made about the movement of dust runs that risk for obvious reasons.Sure they (fly ash spherules) were expected, but not in concentrations 150 times what was expected
Yes. I have suggested before that 104 floors sliding past 50 steel columns at 120 mph for a quarter of a mile might have made a few.So its quite obvious that there is another source of these iron sphericals in play here
I couldn't have put it better myself.Ignoring the data is no way to form a conclusion let alone a wildly unlikely hypothesis
Not the right word at all. See above. There are examples on this site.direct us to any other symmetrical collapses exactly synonymous
Quite correct. The degree to which the material is no longer straight and square is critical.Beams will react by sagging - columns will compress - steel will retain most of its strength
That is false.it will also work harden once the fires begin to subside
I do. They know that notoriety will increase their cash-flow.Ah so you believe there is a conspiracy? That these people are just lying and that they are concealing evidence damaging to their position?
I cannot make the slightest sense out of the above group of words.I'd say there is no finer example of a condition known in psychology as "transference" yet seen on this forum. You have nailed to a tea exactly what NIST is doing and yet wish to blame exactly that on those who are simply pointing out the massive errors within the NIST fairytale. For instance why isn't the huge data pool on ultra high temps existing at WTC 7 even considered within the NIST report.
I disagree. There is no sign of such material, of that color, in any WTC picture I have ever seen.yellow/white glowing steel (as clearly seen in multiple photographs of the WTC site) represents temps of something in the 1100~1200°C range
It can be interpreted differently by someone with considerably greater experience.The hard reality is that calling academic superiority on visual evidence is not a very compelling argument. The visual evidence simply can't be explained away.
No collapse at the WTC was symmetrical.Small dispersed and fading office fires do not lead to a total symmetrical collapse
Get back to the helicopter footage. Climb a thousand feet. You are looking at an angled slash through thirty box-section tubular columns 45 centimeters wide by 7 millimeters thick. The slash extends through six twelve foot high floors, seventy two feet in all. It is a seventy foot high chimney. A woman stands in it, unburnt, because the fire is two hundred feet behind her and seventy feet above her. A breeze is blowing past her at 25 mph.temps wildly in excess of that possible within a hydrocarbon based office type open fire.
I believe that in another thread, fly ash was mentioned as a constituent of the cement used to make the concrete, and that small spherules of iron oxide are a normal constituent of fly ash.
Fly ash is made in very hight temperatures indeed: it is what remains when fine particles of coal are burnt in a fluidized bed power station furnace.
Lead and molybdenum are also found in traces in coal, so may also be in fly ash produced from coal.
Concrete may or may not be made up using fly ash. Constituent parts of concrete dust will definitely reflect the temperatures their constituents were subjected to.
It seems to me there is nothing solid left of this idea until the above points (loads of "may"s and "if"s) are addressed.
Concrete doesn't melt. It is destroyed before it can possibly melt, because it gets its strength from crystals which contain water of crystallization. That water separates from the crystals at around 700+ deg C. The steel cannot melt until it reaches around 1500 deg C.![]()
Then theres all this concrete melted together with metal.........