H.R. 5344 - Bill Banning Enhanced Body Armor

[occams rusty scissor]

The one that most people remember was the North Hollywood bank shooting, but don't really remember any others.

Would it also be reasonable to say that mass shootings of the type that make the news are usually committed by people that do not actually expect to survive the event anyway?

This is true from the statisctics put out by the DOJ or FBI (laziness on my part - sorry, playing daddy day care at the same time) in that active shooter incidents generally last for around 12-13 minutes, and are often resolved when the offender takes their own life upon arrival of emergency services.

I know several examples have been given in training where the shooters have apparently noticed the sirens arriving on scene and shot themselves, or made a last ditch 'suicide run' where they exit a building shooting, or pointing a firearm, at police in a 'suicide by cop' sceneario.

IIRC, the Aurora Cinema shooter was wearing body armour? But as I said, this may be the exception rather than the rule.

 

[BombDr]

I posted an article from slate that discussed;
How many gun-toting criminals are wearing body armor? A Slate investigation.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._how_many_felons_wear_bulletproof_vests_.html
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/h-r-5344-bill-banning-enhanced-body-armor.4133/#post-120887

Bugger, seems worse than I thought.... I might need to revise my earlier opinion...

 

[Jason]

Bugger, seems worse than I thought.... I might need to revise my earlier opinion...

I'm not saying its a serious situation in our country, but I too was somewhat amazed by the numbers. Like you said, all I remembered was the North Hollywood incident, and I was taken back by the "raw" statistics discussed in the article.

 

[BombDr]

I'm not saying its a serious situation in our country, but I too was somewhat amazed by the numbers. Like you said, all I remembered was the North Hollywood incident, and I was taken back by the "raw" statistics discussed in the article.

If the bill would make the cops job easier, then I can see the logic in it. However, on a philosophical level this is avoiding what the real cause of these shootings is, and that is one that is unresolvable, even if you exclude all the preppers and doomsayers from Youtube. I'm not sure if Metabunk is the place to debate gun-control unless specifically involving bunk.

Having said that, the people that I describe will most likely see this as growing evidence that the jackboot guv'ment thugs are cummin' to take the guns, and they start with the vests so they can't protect themselves....

 

[occams rusty scissor]

I appreciate this perspective, from someone who has actual training.

Earlier (I think up-thread) I may have pointed out that a Human who turned his/her torso to the side presents a profile that is....well, not much more than a head or Thigh/Leg profile. I know that the "shooting range" galleries always show a torso....front (or 'back') on.

Any comments on this, from your experience/perspective?

Shooting ranges are very sterile, and lack the types of distractions/problems faced in an emergency. General patrols do the majority of their training in this type of environment, because it's obviously difficult to safely setup a 'crisis' situation, which is one of the reasons police tactical groups (eg SWAT) exist and train so hard.

So to answer your question -yes a side profile is harder to hit because it's a narrower target. It's for this reason most trainers will teach shooters to aim for the center of seen mass, as it starts to ingrain the habit of shooting at the center of the largest seen portion of the target as opposed to waiting for a torso to appear.

The difficult part comes when you have scared/panicked people running in your direction and obviously within your arc of fire. Couple that with your own natural movement/balance/need for cover plus whatever your offender may be doing and it becomes clearer how difficult it is to start trying to "sharp shoot" for a head shot. Unless you're an experienced combat shooter or well trained, a head shot on a wacko wearing body armour and wielding, as Bomb Doc pointed out, whatever freakish assault rifle they may have, starts to become a very difficult prospect.

 

[Pete Tar]

People will inevitably go out now and purchase IIIA body armour because they fear the government is trying to ban it.

conspiracy theory - these bills are actually originally conceived of and pitched to corrupt politicians by the armament industry to cause panic sale spikes.

 

[occams rusty scissor]

I posted an article from slate that discussed;
How many gun-toting criminals are wearing body armor? A Slate investigation.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._how_many_felons_wear_bulletproof_vests_.html
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/h-r-5344-bill-banning-enhanced-body-armor.4133/#post-120887

Ah sorry Jason - missed it. just reading now.

I see it refers to what was mentioned earlier in the thread about the sort of accopmanying weapons likely to be possessed by offenders:

n addition to those 11 cases, the search turned up eight incidents in which ballistic vests were found in the possession of people who killed, shot, or engaged in armed standoffs with officers, or who were suspected of, convicted of plotting mass-casualty attacks. That's not counting the six cases in which ballistic vests were worn during armed robberies or home invasions....Most commonly, vests were found with guns (often assault rifles), ammunition stockpiles, drugs, and lots of cash. Many cases involved silencers, bombs, or grenades. Some included helmets, telescopic rifle sights, sniper training manuals, or tear gas. Vests seem particularly popular among survivalists and drug dealers.

 

[David Fraser]

During my Navy years, we had old flak vests for issue to gunners and the ships security forces. Probably the Vietnam era M69 I imagine. Even those, which offered no real protection against bullets, were heavy uncomfortable things. And they were hot! Must of had the sweat of 100 people before me in them as well.

Off topic but we used M69, as well as M59?, in the 80s in Nirthern Ireland. Ours had the raised collar and was Vietnam surplus, mine was older than me ;-) They had added padding around the shoulders for extra grip for our rifle. It added about 10 pounds in weight bit I swear we would lose the equivalent of that in sweat on patrol.

But I swear by the stuff. Before going out we had the chance to go on the ranges and have a pop at a set. We fired the L1A1 SLR 7.62 our version of the FN FAL and a round would go through like butter even at 100 yards. However it was resistant to grenade blasts. Later I was involved in a bomb blast that lifted be a couple of yards. My steel helmet was ripped to shreds at the back and I had a 6inch piece of shrapnel sticking out the back of my head, but apart from a strange burning smell and a couple of scorches the armour was fine.

 

[BombDr]

Later I was involved in a bomb blast that lifted be a couple of yards. My steel helmet was ripped to shreds at the back and I had a 6inch piece of shrapnel sticking out the back of my head, but apart from a strange burning smell and a couple of scorches the armour was fine.

Stuck in the back of your helmet, or stuck in the back of your head?

 

[David Fraser]

Stuck in the back of your helmet, or stuck in the back of your head?

Stuck in the back of my head :-(

 

[BombDr]

Stuck in the back of my head :-(

Bugger.... I thought I had a juicy one with my GSW, which didn't actually penetrate...

Was it a 'Blighty' wound?

 

[David Fraser]

Bugger.... I thought I had a juicy one with my GSW, which didn't actually penetrate...

Was it a 'Blighty' wound?

Yeah. I was at Musgrave Park for a while after surgery and was up and about at home after a month or so. It did not work out to bad at the time. I was not quite 18 having joined at 16. I was a medic and they were looking to rerole me and I ended up on secondment to a civvie hospital near home while I trained as a nurse. A pretty good career move and a good pulling point with the ladies ;-)

Unfortunately a couple of years back I had a stroke caused by microfragments that had been left in. Still at least I am walking about

 

[BombDr]

Unfortunately a couple of years back I had a stroke caused by microfragments that had been left in. Still at least I am walking about

Bugger x 2! I just have a scar and an interesting dinner-party dit...