Flight MH17 News

[Mick West]

Note: This thread is just for posting new developments about Flight MH17, and immediate comments and clarifications on those items of news. More detailed discussion must go into a new more focussed thread.


Key resources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17
https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/sets/
http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/

 

[Mick West]

Interesting change of tune by Air India - seems like they were not aware that FlightRadar24, etc, would show everyone exactly where their plane was. They probably just did not want to alarm people.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...Airlines-Flight-MH17/articleshow/38702536.cms

MUMBAI: The ministry of civil aviation's claim that there was noAir India flight near the ill-fated Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 when it was shot down over Ukraine on Thursday appears misleading.

An Air India Dreamliner flight going from Delhi to Birmingham was in fact less than 25km away from the Malaysian aircraft, a distance covered by a Dreamliner or Boeing 777 in about 90 seconds, when the latter was hit. Because of this closeness, the Dnipropetrovsk (local Ukrainian) air traffic controller asked the AI pilots to try and establish contact with pilots of the Malaysian aircraft who had stopped responding to its calls.

Minutes before the crash caused by a missile strike, the AI pilots had also heard the controller give the Malaysian aircraft MH17 what is called "a direct routing". This permits an aircraft to fly straight, instead of tracking the regular route which is generally a zig-zag track that goes from one ground-based navigation aid or way point to another. "Direct routing saves fuel and time and is preferred by pilots. In this case, it proved fatal," said an airline source.

"The AI Dreamliner was less than 25km away from the Malaysian aircraft when the latter was hit by a missile. When the pilots learnt the cause of the crash later, they were stunned. It's like the person standing next to you has been hit by a sniper bullet," said the source.

As instructed by the controller, the AI pilots tried to contact the Boeing 777 after its transponder display went off the radar. The message they sent was: "Malaysian 17, this is Air India 113. How do you read?" There was, of course, no response.

Soon after the tragedy, the media picked up data from flightradar24, a live flight tracker website which showed the AI aircraft in the vicinity. But the next day, on Friday, the civil aviation ministry issued a statement that "there was no Air India flight near the ill-fated Malaysian plane at the time of the incident".

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[vooke]

And probable data recorders found

Items presumed to be the data recorders from the crashed Malaysian plane have been found and delivered to Donetsk, eastern Ukraine, according to the leader of the self-proclaimed People’s Republic of Donetsk.

“Aircraft parts looking like black boxes were found at the site of the plane crash. They are currently in Donetsk, in the People’s Republic’s (DPR) government headquarters, under my personal control,” Aleksandr Boroday, the republic’s prime minister, told reporters.

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http://rt.com/news/174204-ukraine-flight-recorders-plane/

 

[Libertarian]

Black Box recovery caught on tape:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...aught-tape-separatists-hand-over-internationa
With the rabbit hole of conspiracies getting deeper by the hour, video has emerged showing what appears to be the "black box" flight data recorder from Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 being taken from the crash scene. As NBC reports, the men in the video are wearing Ukrainian Emergency Ministry uniforms, but a senior Ukrainian official told a news conference Sunday that rebels had taken the black boxes. This fits with reports from The Hill that pro-Russian separatists have located the black boxes for the downed Malaysia Airlines passenger jet and will hand them over to international authorities, according to separatist leader Alexander Borodai. With the US having offered more "proof" that Russia was involved, perhaps some facts from the Black Box will help clarify details in this dreadful situation... though we are not confident.

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[Pete Tar]

Russia's Ambassador to India Alexander Kadakin, in an interview with The Hindu's Suhasini Haidar. Excerpts:
How do you respond to allegations by the Ukrainian government over the involvement of Russia in the tragic Malaysian Air crash ?

Together with entire mankind we are profoundly shocked at aggrieved by the tragedy, and have offered condolences at the highest level. Anti-Russian passions are now running high in Kiev, but some simple questions must be answered by the Ukrainian authorities.

Firstly, why on earth did Ukraine's air traffic control allow a passenger liner enter the airspace which had been allegedly closed by these same authorities? Secondly, can anyone in sane mind blame any country for its responsibility for the disaster ten minutes after the crash took place, as was broadcast from Kiev? It is à la Goebbels propaganda. There is a host of other very serious questions to which the world does not hear replies from Ukraine. Its rulers are deaf and blind to solid facts. For the last several months not a word of truth, but only packs of blatant lies and distortions are emanating from there. We can remind them of the Bible's wisdom that "there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open".
.....

The so-called intercepts to which my colleague might refer, are totally fabricated fakes, pre-recorded one day before the tragic air crash. Anyone could see it on YouTube. Besides, experts have proved that they are a montage of several separate cuttings done much before the airliner was shot downhttp://www.thehindu.com/news/international/world/full-transcript-of-the-interview-with-russian-ambassador/article6233098.ece

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So he uses the timestamp issues as well. But what experts proved they're a montage?

 

[Pete Tar]

US embassy says the recordings are authentic.

Audio data provided to the press by the Ukrainian security service was evaluated by Intelligence Community analysts who confirmed these were authentic conversations between known separatist leaders, based on comparing the Ukraine-released internet audio to recordings of known separatists.
http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/asmt-07192014.html

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More alleged recordings. Slightly more skeptical about these ones. Would they really be saying stuff like "Moscow wants to know... Moscow says...", seems a little weird.
Probably real though.

In the second tape, the rebel leader again alludes to outside influences: "Our friends from high above are very much interested in the fate of the 'black boxes.' I mean people from Moscow."

The leader tells another militiaman not to let anybody else take anything from the crash site, saying that everything must remain in control of the separatists.
http://mashable.com/2014/07/20/mh17-black-boxes/

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[TEEJ]

US embassy says the recordings are authentic.[/EX]

In relation to previous recordings a journalist has claimed to have contacted 'Grek'

http://cgrozev.wordpress.com/2014/07/20/an-interview-with-grek/

 

[qed]

Old but interesting.

A London-based correspondent of Kremlin-funded news channel Russia Today has resigned in protest at its coverage of the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

Sara Firth, who worked at Russia Today for five years, described the channel’s reporting of the crash in which 298 people were killed, including a former BBC journalist, as the “straw that broke the camel’s back”.

Russia Today, which has been criticised as a propaganda mouthpiece for the Russian government, suggested Ukraine was to blame for the crash, while most media organisations have said it was shot down by a suspected Russian-made missile.

“It was the most shockingly obvious misinformation and it got to the point where I couldn’t defend it any more,” Firth told the Guardian.

“When this story broke that was the moment I knew I had to go. I walked into the newsroom and there was an eyewitness account making allegations [against Ukraine] and analysis, if you can call it, from our correspondent in the studio.

“It was just appalling, in a situation like that where there are families waiting to be informed and a devastating loss of life.”

She added: “I have always fought against this argument that RT is an evil network but you wake up and think, that’s just wrong.

“It was not an easy decision, I started my career at RT, and I respect many of the team there. In the end it got to the point where I couldn’t defend it and I didn’t believe there was something to defend. A story like this really highlights it.”

Firth said she previously had a “lot of editorial independence” filming reports for the network but said there had previously been examples of senior editorial interference, and said she had been pulled out of Syria after some “very heated discussions” about the channel’s coverage.

Firth said on Twitter: “I resigned from RT today. I have huge respect for many in the team, but I’m for the truth.”

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guardian.com

 

[Jason]

More alleged recordings. Slightly more skeptical about these ones. Would they really be saying stuff like "Moscow wants to know... Moscow says...", seems a little weird.
Probably real though.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-purport-to-implicate-Russia-in-cover-up.html

Honestly, I was thinking the same thing Pete. Why in the world would they be talking like this on cell phones, especially after the news about them being recorded previously. But then I got to thinking, maybe all they get in that part of the world is Russian media. Russian media is implicating the Ukranian Government, so maybe the separatist have no idea whats going on in the western media.

 

[Jason]

Also it should be reported that the fighting started back up today during the morning news while I was watching CNN's Chris Cuomo. There are reports that the Russian Separatist that were present at the crash site had to leave to reinforce their fighters on the front line. You could see smoke rising in the background a few miles from him. It seems, or at least he's reporting that the Ukranians seem to be taking advantage of the situation since the Russians aren't sending help over the border with the ongoing investigation.

He also interviewed the Rebel Leader who adamantly denies they had anything to do with the plane being shot down; http://newday.blogs.cnn.com/2014/07...e-didnt-have-any-motive-to-target-this-plane/

 

[Sgt.Tinfoil]

Also it should be reported that the fighting started back up today during the morning news while I was watching CNN's Chris Cuomo.

Actually heavy fightings started just after the crash and Ukrainian Army started the biggest shellings of residental areas in the whole war.

 

[Jason]

Actually heavy fightings started just after the crash and Ukrainian Army started the biggest shellings of residental areas in the whole war.

Sorry but that video clip doesn't prove "Ukranians started the biggest shelling of the war" on residential areas after mh17 crashed. Honestly it looks like dirt was kicked up, like what you see when vehicles drive on dirt roads. I didn't hear shelling or explosions. No time stamp and its in Russian.

 

[Sgt.Tinfoil]

Sorry but that video clip doesn't prove Ukranians started the biggest shelling of the war on residential areas after mh17 crashed.

You are absolutely right. I should have not said that. I was just reading some news about the shellings to residental areas so to me it sounded like biggest ones this far.

Honestly it looks like dirt was kicked up, like what you see when vehicles drive on dirt roads.

Absolutely true. Then again we know that residental areas are being bombed so I will go with that and not for example dirtbike racers meetup.
These links might have GRAPHICAL CONTENT AND NOT SUITABLE FOR EVERYONE
http://ban.jo/News/Europe/20140718/Many-Killed-In-Lugansk-Shelling-Luhanska/

 

[Josh Heuer]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...4-98ee-daea85133bc9_story.html?wpmk=MK0000205

Washington Post - rebels are handing over the black boxes to Malaysian authorities.

BREAKING: Malaysia’s Prime Minister Najib Razak said pro-Russian separatists have agreed to turn the two black boxes over to a Malaysian team in Donetsk at 9 p.m. Ukraine time.

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Although I can't imagine how much importance the black boxes will have (as opposed to, say, MH370's).

 

[qed]

There is something else interesting in Josh's link above.

At the same time, Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk continued to build a case being made by Washington and Kiev that pro-Moscow separatists and Russian forces worked hand in hand in acquiring and operating the missile battery believed to have been used to shoot down the jetliner Thursday. He said the rebels alone did not have the technical ability to operate such sophisticated equipment. He implicated Russia in aiding them and called for an international investigation to establish the facts.

“Drunken guerrillas cannot manage this system,” Yatsenyuk told reporters Monday in Kiev. “They need to work in cooperation with another radar system that we don’t have in Ukrainian territory, and we want an international investigation to get the real facts of who targeted” the flight.

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Does anyone know if this is true? That the rocket could only be targeted with a radar outside of the Ukraine?

 

[Mick West]

Black Box handed over:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28413467

 

[MikeC]

Does anyone know if this is true? That the rocket could only be targeted with a radar outside of the Ukraine?

no it is not true - the Buk erector-launcher-and-radar (TELAR - Transporter Erector And Radar) is the middle vehicle below, and the smooth bit in front of the missiles is radar that has a short-medium range independent search/control function.



From the Russian wiki page (translated in google):

9A310 - propelled fire setting SAM 9K37 "Buk" .

• 9A310M1 - propelled fire setting SAM 9K37M1 "Buk-M1" . Compared to the basic machine range acquisition and tracking purposes increased by 25 .. 30%. Вероятность Probability of recognition of ballistic missiles , helicopters and aircraft increased to 0.6. . In order to enhance the mutual security and jamming amount lettered frequencies illumination increased from 36 to 72

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And from the FAS page on the SA-11 missile system:

The TELAR, based on the GM-569 tracked chassis, carries four ready to fire missiles on a turntable that can traverse a full 360º and FIRE DOME radar.

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Most of the photos seem to show a cloth cover over something that closely resembles that radome on the front of the TELAR

 

[Jason]

Black Box handed over:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28413467

OT: Can black boxes or FDR's be tampered with in any way. Can they be taken apart and reassemled to corrupt the data, or will investigators know if it was tampered with it.

 

[MikeC]

They will have seals in place to indicate tampering. It is certainly possible to do so - but seems very unlikely that anyone would have the technical knowhow to make any meaningful changes, let alone restore the apparent integrity of the unit.

However destroying the evidence by exposure to strong electro-magnetic fields may be a possibility at any level of expertise.

 

[Soulfly]

However destroying the evidence by exposure to strong electro-magnetic fields may be a possibility at any level of expertise.

The Walter White school of destroying evidence.

You would think if they were smart enough to successfully tamper with it, they would be smart enough not to have shot down the wrong plane.

 

[Jason]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/22/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/

I think we might start to see a change in rhetoric from Russia over the course of the next few days and the recent remarks by Russian Ambassador to the UN is proof of that. Vitaly Churkin states that if the reports of the pro-Russian recorded conversations are true then it shows that it wasn't an act of terrorism because they honestly believed it was a military plane.

Vitaly Churkin, Russia's ambassador to the United Nations, was asked Monday about different intercepted recordings, purportedly of pro-Russian rebels talking about shooting down a plane. Churkin suggested that if they did, it was an accident.

"According to them, the people from the east were saying that they shot down a military jet," he said. "If they think they shot down a military jet, it was confusion. If it was confusion, it was not an act of terrorism."

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[WeedWhacker]

The Washington Post:

Flight 17: U.S. builds case against rebels, Russia in downing of jet in Ukraine

Citing an “enormous amount of evidence,” Secretary of State John F. Kerry accused Russia of providing SA-11 antiaircraft missiles to the pro-Russian rebels and training them how to fire the advanced weapons. He also said U.S. intelligence agencies “saw the launch” of a missile from rebel-held territory in eastern Ukraine and recorded its trajectory at the moment the passenger plane vanished from radar.

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(My bold emphasis)

 

[Mick West]

Indication of shrapnel moved to:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/mh17-evidence-a-missile-was-used-shrapnel-etc.3997/

 

[Jason]

It's being reported that the Pro Russian Rebels are responsibile for "sawing" the cockpit in half. It isn't yet clear why they would do such a thing.

HRABOVE, Ukraine -- International monitors who have finally gained full access to the Malaysia Airlines crash site in eastern Ukraine said Tuesday the Boeing 777's cockpit inexplicably had been sawed in half while under the control of Russian-backed separates.

The monitors said said large parts of the cockpit -- and every part of the fuselage -- were carried off. They said they are not sure why such vital pieces of evidence from the downed plane were tampered with.

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The cockpit was found in a section of the crash site that had been immediately cordoned off during the first two days after the plane went down. Witnesses tell USA TODAY that this was also the area where the first bodies were removed.

The cockpit apparently was cut in half with diesel-powered saws.

"The rear part of the aircraft, one of the biggest intact pieces, has definitely been hacked into," said Michael Bociurkiw, spokesman for the group of international monitors from the Organize for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).

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http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/22/ukraine-mh17-bodies-russia/12981325/

 

[Jason]

CNN is also reporting live on the TV that the original report of 282 bodies on the "morgue" trains is an exaggerated number. By their accounts from what they are being told there were only 200 bodies on the train, which means there is still about 100 bodies missing. I hope for the sake of these families that the bodies get recovered, and sooner than later since it's summer in that region of the world. The bodies will begin to break down and decompose rather quickly in the summer heat.

 

[Mick West]

Should be some news in a few minutes.

From the ODNI
http://www.dni.gov/index.php

 

[Mick West]

 

[Jason]

Black Boxes arrived in the UK. Any idea how long the world will wait to hear whats on those recorders? Investigators said it will take several weeks to review the recorders. On another note the Safety Board said it will conduct two additional probes: "an investigation into the decision-making for flight routes and an investigation into the availability of passenger lists."
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/23/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/

'Black boxes' arrive in UK

It took days for Ukrainian rebels who control the area of the crash site to hand over the bodies and the airliners' black boxes to Malaysian officials.

Now, the voice and flight data recorders are in Britain for what will be a detailed scouring by international analysts, officials said.

The Dutch Safety Board is leading the Flight 17 investigation. Dutch officials had asked for help from British accident investigators to retrieve data from the boxes for international analysis, British Prime Minister David Cameron said.

Analyzing data from the black boxes could take several weeks, the Safety Board said.

But the black boxes might not help answer the two most pressing questions: who shot down the plane, and why.

And after global debate over whether planes should fly over conflict zones, the Safety Board said it will conduct two additional probes: "an investigation into the decision-making for flight routes and an investigation into the availability of passenger lists.

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[WeedWhacker]

Investigators said it will take several weeks to review the recorders.

This is standard procedure. ALL such instances of FDR and CVR data review proceed in a very stringent, well-defined manner. We are a society of "HAVE IT NOW!"...but, this takes time, and protocols will be followed.

 

[David Fraser]

Black Boxes arrived in the UK. Any idea how long the world will wait to hear whats on those recorders? Investigators said it will take several weeks to review the recorders. On another note the Safety Board said it will conduct two additional probes: "an investigation into the decision-making for flight routes and an investigation into the availability of passenger lists."
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/23/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/

'Black boxes' arrive in UK

It took days for Ukrainian rebels who control the area of the crash site to hand over the bodies and the airliners' black boxes to Malaysian officials.

Now, the voice and flight data recorders are in Britain for what will be a detailed scouring by international analysts, officials said.

The Dutch Safety Board is leading the Flight 17 investigation. Dutch officials had asked for help from British accident investigators to retrieve data from the boxes for international analysis, British Prime Minister David Cameron said.

Analyzing data from the black boxes could take several weeks, the Safety Board said.

But the black boxes might not help answer the two most pressing questions: who shot down the plane, and why.

And after global debate over whether planes should fly over conflict zones, the Safety Board said it will conduct two additional probes: "an investigation into the decision-making for flight routes and an investigation into the availability of passenger lists.

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An item on BBC News said they will be passing the data to the Dutch within 48 hours, although some voice recording has been passed already.

 

[WeedWhacker]

An item on BBC News said they will be passing the data to the Dutch within 48 hours, although some voice recording has been passed already.

Yes, but I think @Jason was asking about when it would be public.

That will take some time. (Unless leaked, of course).

Although the NTSB is not 'directly' involved here, this is an example of their handbook of protocols:
https://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/manuals/FDR_Handbook.pdf

I expect that all other ICAO nations adopt a similar scheme.

 

[Jason]

Here's a photo of one of the FDR's, and I just wanted to point out something that I didn't know could happen. This FDR is missing the transponder if you look at the top right portion of the picture. Typically, there would be a white tubular thing that sits in that O'ring which sends out a radio signal so it can be discovered. Investigators said this doesn't happen very often but it's not uncommon if the FDR housing suffers damage.



In the bottom photo you can see two FDR's, one with the transponder tube, and the other without.

 

[Trailspotter]

This news just appeared on a few Russian language sites. Here is the English version:

REUTERS: Ukraine rebel commander acknowledges fighters had BUK missile

In an interview with Reuters, Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion, acknowledged for the first time since the airliner was brought down in eastern Ukraine on Thursday that the rebels did possess the BUK missile system and said it could have been sent back subsequently to remove proof of its presence.

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[Jason]

This news just appeared on a few Russian language sites. Here is the English version:

REUTERS: Ukraine rebel commander acknowledges fighters had BUK missile

In an interview with Reuters, Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion, acknowledged for the first time since the airliner was brought down in eastern Ukraine on Thursday that the rebels did possess the BUK missile system and said it could have been sent back subsequently to remove proof of its presence.

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Does this mean the Russians are getting ready to admit the rebels did this with their weapons?

 

[Qualiall]

7:16 PMGMT July 23, 2014
"Journalists are now reporting that Ukraine Rebel Commander Alexander Khodakovsky, in a [sic] interview with Russian media, denies telling @Reuters that fighters had a BUK missile system"
http://www.breakingnews.com/item/2014/07/23/journalists-are-now-reporting-that-ukraine-rebel-c/

 

[derwoodii]

for the predictable sayin its was all fake false flag

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wes...999190188?nk=8d78fc93142d882dc242ad40dcf099bf

 

[Soulfly]

Not directly related. But there have been a couple of suspect videos that have popped up here reported to show the missile launch or strike. They might fall into this category.
http://www.hoax-slayer.com/m17-scams.shtml

Sadly, callous criminals waste no time in exploiting disasters such as air-crashes, terrorist attacks, storms, or tsunamis. The MH17 missile attack tragedy is no exception. In coming days and weeks, Internet users should be wary of scam attacks that attempt to trick people into following links or opening attachments in messages that are supposedly related to MH17. Here are three ways in which scammers are likely to launch such attacks:

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[Jason]

The telegraph is reporting that Journalist are starting to get arrested in the area where MH 17 went down. Reporters without borders are asking the Pro Russians and Kiev government to allow journalist to report without fear of getting arrested, so I don't know if it only entails the accident site or conflict zones.

20.52 Journalists are increasingly being arrested in eastern Ukraine, Reporters Without Borders said Thursday, as US channel CNN and Russia's RT said two contributors had been detained while covering the crisis, AFP reports.

"Arbitrary arrests and disappearances of journalists are on the rise again in eastern Ukraine," Reporters Without Borders said in a statement, calling for both troops loyal to Kiev and pro-Russian separatists to allow journalists to cover the conflict freely and release those detained.

CNN said rebels were holding its Ukrainian fixer Anton Skiba in the eastern city of Donetsk, adding it was working to secure his release.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor.../MH17-plane-crash-July-24-as-it-happened.html

 

[Maarten]

Just in Dutch news: Research Black box confirms missile impact.



http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/mh17/22900363/___Raketinslag_MH17_bevestigd___.html

 

[Mick West]

Just in Dutch news: Research Black box confirms missile impact.

That is misreporting what happened. The investigators describe it as "consistent with missile blast". They are just repeating the CBS story here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-airlines-flight-17-black-box-findings-consistent-with-blast/

Black box findings consistent with missile blast
Unreleased data from a black box retrieved from the wreckage of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in Ukraine show findings consistent with the plane's fuselage being hit multiple times by shrapnel from a missile explosion, CBS News correspondent Mark Phillips reports.

"It did what it was designed to do," a European air safety official told CBS News, "bring down airplanes."

The official described the finding as "massive explosive decompression."

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Of course a missile seems like by far the most likely thing based on available information. But it has not been conclusively confirmed.