Election Conspiracies

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Blacks, hispanics, asians, etc don't have strong family values . . . ? What are you saying . . . ?

It's interesting to note (although off-topic) that immigrants, or any cultural minority, will bond together within the new larger culture they enter, and this (very understandable) tendency to support each other is what leads to perceptions of racial stereotypes and conspiracy (particularly with jewish 'influence' in certain sectors).

The fact that they want to help each other and therefore employ members of their extended family, when this leads to success in the chosen field, gives rise to resentments from those 'outside' the cultural group (typically less culturally-bonded whites), and can give rise to racist resentment or ideas of jewish-cabal conspiracies.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
Blacks, hispanics, asians, etc don't have strong family values . . . ? What are you saying . . . ?

I'm saying that these generalisations you made that you seem to have forgotten already:

...it has been shown the aforementioned groups (excluding liberal women) have strong family and moral values and are more likely to be against, for example, gay marriage and unrestricted abortion for example . . . however, they refuse to vote for a platform that supports those values . . . instead they voted against a white candidate . . . and for a candidate of color who does not support their family values . . .

Seem to be wrong.
 
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George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I'm saying that these generalisations you made that you seem to have forgotten already:



Seem to be wrong.

Any generalization can have exceptions and change over time and depends on exactly how a question is asked on polling . . . however, what I state has been an established political axiom in this country for some time . . .
 
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MikeC

Closed Account
Show me you evidence . . .

I beleive I have shown you as much evidence that your generalisations seem to be wrong as you have shown that they are right :)

However I will provide some 3rd party evidence you are wrong:

or how to get a more diverse GOP

These links show that ther are different aspects of your generalisations that seem to be wrong - in the first one that america, as a whole and including minority groups, agrees with those particular "family values" - anti-abortion and anti-same sex marriage. The 2nd one suggests that what "strong family values" Hispanics do have are not those of the GOP.

hope that helps.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I beleive I have shown you as much evidence that your generalisations seem to be wrong as you have shown that they are right :)

However I will provide some 3rd party evidence you are wrong:

or how to get a more diverse GOP

These links show that ther are different aspects of your generalisations that seem to be wrong - in the first one that america, as a whole and including minority groups, agrees with those particular "family values" - anti-abortion and anti-same sex marriage. The 2nd one suggests that what "strong family values" Hispanics do have are not those of the GOP.

hope that helps.

I will answer this very simply . . . my quote below . . . Yes the entire country is more secular

1) change "shown" to "believed"
2) minorities hold conservative family values at nearly the same rate as the rest of the electorate
3) they did not vote their values as supported by the Rebpublican platform
4) there is no way 93% of blacks or 73% of Hispanics support abortion on demand or gay marriage . . .

Obama won . . .


African American . . . 93%
Hispanic . . . 73%
Women . . . 55%


 

MikeC

Closed Account
I think yuo have missed the pioint - yuo made some generalisations and didnt' provie any sources for them (& still haven't) - I said that those generalisations "seem to be wrong" - essentialy based upon the election results.

as far as I can see your last post is showing that I am correct - the generalisations seem to be wrong based upon the election results.

Let's go through those generalisations shall we:

it has been shown the aforementioned groups (excluding liberal women) have strong family and moral values...

You have not offered any evidence

and are more likely to be against, for example, gay marriage and unrestricted abortion for example . . .

you have not offered any evidence....and the evidence from the election and since seems to be that if they hold these positions they do not think they are all that important

however, they refuse to vote for a platform that supports those values . . .

on this it does seem we agree - insofar as "those values" is limited to "anti-gay" and "anti-abortion" (I shall use these in quotes as shorthand for the more complicated and nuanced positions in those 2 general areas)

instead they voted against a white candidate . . .

you have not offered any evidence that "white" was important in their choice - I have offered evidence that they had many considerations other than colour.

and for a candidate of color who does not support their family values . . .

As above in regard of colour, and I have offered evidence that your idea of their family values is incorrect - their family values differ from "anti-gay" and "anti-abortion" - they are more concerned with employment, social justice and immigration, in differing amounts and for differing reasons for various groups - and THESE "family values" were much more closely identified with Obama than the GOP/Romney.

so I maintain that your generalisation that they have "anti-gay" and "anti-abortion" "family values" seems wrong - their "family values" seem to have been different from the GOP's "family values". Therefore the generalisation that they shared "family values" values with the GOP seems wrong. And of course that they voted for a candidate who "does not support their family values" is also wrong - it seems as if they voted for a candidate who shared their ACTUAL "family values" - rather than the ones the GOP wishes they had.

QED I maintain that your generalisations seem wrong.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I think yuo have missed the pioint - yuo made some generalisations and didnt' provie any sources for them (& still haven't) - I said that those generalisations "seem to be wrong" - essentialy based upon the election results.

as far as I can see your last post is showing that I am correct - the generalisations seem to be wrong based upon the election results.

Let's go through those generalisations shall we:



You have not offered any evidence



you have not offered any evidence....and the evidence from the election and since seems to be that if they hold these positions they do not think they are all that important



on this it does seem we agree - insofar as "those values" is limited to "anti-gay" and "anti-abortion" (I shall use these in quotes as shorthand for the more complicated and nuanced positions in those 2 general areas)



you have not offered any evidence that "white" was important in their choice - I have offered evidence that they had many considerations other than colour.



As above in regard of colour, and I have offered evidence that your idea of their family values is incorrect - their family values differ from "anti-gay" and "anti-abortion" - they are more concerned with employment, social justice and immigration, in differing amounts and for differing reasons for various groups - and THESE "family values" were much more closely identified with Obama than the GOP/Romney.

so I maintain that your generalisation that they have "anti-gay" and "anti-abortion" "family values" seems wrong - their "family values" seem to have been different from the GOP's "family values". Therefore the generalisation that they shared "family values" values with the GOP seems wrong. And of course that they voted for a candidate who "does not support their family values" is also wrong - it seems as if they voted for a candidate who shared their ACTUAL "family values" - rather than the ones the GOP wishes they had.

QED I maintain that your generalisations seem wrong.


I don't really disagree that much from what you are saying . . . in fact I said the following (see below) . . . and my position on minority and family values was to show the white vote against Obama was no more racist than the minority vote overwhelmingly against a white candidate that supported many of their own values . . . see #36/37 above

 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
4) there is no way 93% of blacks or 73% of Hispanics support abortion on demand or gay marriage . . .

Obama won . . .


African American . . . 93%
Hispanic . . . 73%
Women . . . 55%

Was this campaign run on those issues specifically?
Were they current-debate points, or just general background positions not particularly made a big deal of?
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
There's some interesting claims coming out of voting machines not working as they should:



Could be:

A) Broken machine (hardware - like the screen calibration is off)
B) Software bug
C) Deliberate fraud changing Obama votes to Romney (but why not do this behind the scenes?)
D) Fake video (or video exploiting a broken/buggy machine) trying to motivate Obama supporters to vote to avoid the election being stolen, or just trolling

Thread on ATS, detailing this,
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread896991/pg1
sourced from a reddit thread.
http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/12q6wu/2012_voting_machine_altering_votes/

I initially selected Obama but Romney was highlighted. I assumed it was being picky so I deselected Romney and tried Obama again, this time more carefully, and still got Romney. Being a software developer, I immediately went into troubleshoot mode. I first thought the calibration was off and tried selecting Jill Stein to actually highlight Obama. Nope. Jill Stein was selected just fine. Next I deselected her and started at the top of Romney's name and started tapping very closely together to find the 'active areas'. From the top of Romney's button down to the bottom of the black checkbox beside Obama's name was all active for Romney. From the bottom of that same checkbox to the bottom of the Obama button (basically a small white sliver) is what let me choose Obama. Stein's button was fine. All other buttons worked fine.

I asked the voters on either side of me if they had any problems and they reported they did not. I then called over a volunteer to have a look at it. She him hawed for a bit then calmly said "It's nothing to worry about, everything will be OK." and went back to what she was doing. I then recorded this video.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Was this campaign run on those issues specifically?
Were they current-debate points, or just general background positions not particularly made a big deal of?
Probably background noise to some and significant issues to others . . .
 
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