Debunked: Bundy Ranch Dispute as BLM exploiting Fracking Rights

[WeedWhacker]

...when some real Patriots show up to stop the Tyranny.

Really? What a way to twist the facts.

Right-Wing armed militias that are protecting a law breaker? Anarchy, that's what it is.

This is the result of ill-informed so-called "patriots", and what the ridiculous "Tea Party" has fomented.

Watch the movie Soylent Green for a little insight for what happens when the serfs are at mercy of their masters when everything they know falls apart.

Oh, my. No comment necessary, here.

 

[Svartbjørn]

Great comment by Judge Andrew Napolitano three days ago: “Look, the federal government has a legitimate valid court order. But they don't have to enforce it by bringing in militaristic techniques. They don't have to enforce it by stealing his private property. They can enforce it by filing a document in a courthouse which will enable them to collect the money to which they are entitled when he dies or when his property otherwise passes to somebody else and they know that...

...If you listen to Mr. Bundy he had said he would pay his fair grazing fees. But he stopped because the BLM were using those fees to manage him out of business instead of managing the land...

So, let me get this straight.. you think a man (or his family), that has categorically denied the legitimacy of the US Government, is going abide by a piece of paper from a court that represents said government and just willingly hand over the money that was refused to be paid to that very same government in the first place? Isnt that a bit of an Oxymoron?

 

[WeedWhacker]

And, this same scofflaw (Bundy) uses money (I presume) to buy groceries and gasoline for his truck and other things (ammo for his guns and rifles)...
MONEY that is printed by and issued by the very Federal Government that he claims doesn't exist?

The mind boggles at the insanity....

 

[Cory Munson]

Really? What a way to twist the facts.

Right-Wing armed militias that are protecting a law breaker? Anarchy, that's what it is.

This is the result of ill-informed so-called "patriots", and what the ridiculous "Tea Party" has fomented.



Oh, my. No comment necessary, here.

Well the Government did not have to ues heavy handed tactics. If they would have placed liens against the Bundy land, property & livestock then the Government would have been paid each time anything was sold or transferred. The payments would have been garnished just as in all other court ordered payments. Also the Government ran into another snag because of the court orders they had did not in title confiscation of the cattle no stock yard would accept them for auction. This was the second reason the BLM failed.

All this will make it difficult now for the property lien suit to proceed. If the Government would have filed suit to have liens attached Bundy family would not have stood much chance in court, but now the Government is in a weak position by not following proper legal action.

Sorry no wacko gun nut violence for y'all to crow about. Well by recollection the last few gun nut shooting were registered Democrats.

 

[Cory Munson]

And, this same scofflaw (Bundy) uses money (I presume) to buy groceries and gasoline for his truck and other things (ammo for his guns and rifles)...
MONEY that is printed by and issued by the very Federal Government that he claims doesn't exist?

The mind boggles at the insanity....

Yup the same devaluing money you love I guess. Did you pay your taxes on time???

 

[WeedWhacker]

Well the Government did not have to ues heavy handed tactics.

Yes, they did. They had pursued a legal remedy, for what? 15-20 years?

Restraint was clearly exercised, by the Feds. Bundy is in the wrong. Encumber his assets? Great...but, what if he STILL refuses to pay the fines?

 

[WeedWhacker]

Yup the same devaluing money you love I guess. Did you pay your taxes on time???

And, this makes zero sense.

Is the British Pound also a "devaluing monetary device"? Or, the Euro? The Yen??

 

[Cory Munson]

So, let me get this straight.. you think a man (or his family), that has categorically denied the legitimacy of the US Government, is going abide by a piece of paper from a court that represents said government and just willingly hand over the money that was refused to be paid to that very same government in the first place? Isnt that a bit of an Oxymoron?

Yup he appears to call illegitimate the Government that will put him out of business. But most don't know what it is to run a business. People think if you have a business that you flush with cash. That's because they buy into the Government line of everything should be fair....

 

[WeedWhacker]

Sorry, but I just cannot abide the antique notion of the Right-Wing. Bundy has not only violated what he considers "invalid" (Federal law), but ALSO the Nevada State Constitution!!

He claims, on one hand, "states' rights", but completely ignores the law within the state!


Oh, and I see that Alex Jones is all up in this....no wonder the misinformation is spewing forth.

 

[Cory Munson]

Yes, they did. They had pursued a legal remedy, for what? 15-20 years?

Restraint was clearly exercised, by the Feds. Bundy is in the wrong. Encumber his assets? Great...but, what if he STILL refuses to pay the fines?

You miss the point the Government doesn't have the court order to put a lien or attach his assets. There is a reason why it would take years with a case of this type. Now that Government overplayed it's hand the litigation will be tied up for years more. I give it 7 years at the earliest.

 

[Svartbjørn]

My family's had a business for the last 60+ years @Cory Munson .. they're not over flowing with cash, but theyve never had issues with the government, or taxes, or fees or anything else.. and its because they know what they're doing and play by the rules. My grandfather owned the land the business is on outright.. 30+ acres of cow pasture. He raised cattle, and sold them to pay the taxes on the land while he ran his furniture business as the primary source of income. I have no sympathy for Bundy, or the people that are backing him, just because they dont like who's in charge right now. The arguments that the Bundites have about the current administration are the EXACT same bitches and complaints the Dems had with the previous administration. Plain and simple. Its flat out hypocrisy and Bundy is using the current political climate to get out of paying fees he doesnt feel like paying.. period.

 

[Cory Munson]

Sorry, but I just cannot abide the antique notion of the Right-Wing. Bundy has not only violated what he considers "invalid" (Federal law), but ALSO the Nevada State Constitution!!

He claims, on one hand, "states' rights", but completely ignores the law within the state!


Oh, and I see that Alex Jones is all up in this....no wonder the misinformation is spewing forth.

Have to check that sometime later.

 

[WeedWhacker]

You miss the point the Government doesn't have the court order to put a lien or attach his assets.

I believe this is not a true statement.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ween-cliven-bundy-and-the-federal-government/

Bundy has repeatedly been fined for grazing his cattle on the protected land, fines he has not paid since 1993. The Bureau of Land Management, which oversees about 800 grazing areas in Nevada, responded by revoking his permit. Bundy has not applied for a new one.

Content from External Source

Bundy states that his rights derive from the fact his Mormon ancestors were using the land far before the federal government claimed authority over it.

Content from External Source

(Oh dear....he's a Mormon?!)

 

[deirdre]

Well the Government did not have to ues heavy handed tactics. If they would have placed liens against the Bundy land, property & livestock then the Government would have been paid each time anything was sold or transferred. The payments would have been garnished just as in all other court ordered payments. Also the Government ran into another snag because of the court orders they had did not in title confiscation of the cattle no stock yard would accept them for auction. This was the second reason the BLM failed.

All this will make it difficult now for the property lien suit to proceed. If the Government would have filed suit to have liens attached Bundy family would not have stood much chance in court, but now the Government is in a weak position by not following proper legal action.

Sorry no wacko gun nut violence for y'all to crow about. Well by recollection the last few gun nut shooting were registered Democrats.

liens don't work that way. there are only certain situations where you can put a lien on someone's property, for "fees" I've never heard of but maybe Nevada is different. In my state unless its taxes (or the bank who holds your mortgage) no one can collect a lien by foreclosing on a primary residence.
Micks court documents in OP explain every detail. The GOv. went above and beyond to try every other tactic to get him to cease.

 

[WeedWhacker]

I also abhor this trend of the so-called "patriots" who advocate violence, and in many ways, the overthrow of a legal entity called the Federal Government.

THAT is not democracy. It is a form of terrorism, pure and simple.

 

[Svartbjørn]

I also abhor this trend of the so-called "patriots" who advocate violence, and in many ways, the overthrow of a legal entity called the Federal Government.

THAT is not democracy. It is a form of terrorism, pure and simple.

I dont agree with you completely there TJ.. thats how this country was established, but thats a discussion for another topic or in private.

 

[WeedWhacker]

I dont agree with you completely there TJ.. thats how this country was established...

Yes, that did occur to me. If you refer to the Revolutionary War in the 18th century? The one designed to separate the "colony" from a dominant and autocratic rule (based on an undemocratic hierarchy) of the time? Then yes....THAT was different, then.

Today the situation is a representative democracy which is in danger of being undermined, in favor of anarchy. I consider that a threat.

I am not familiar with Canada's "break", nor Australia's from the dominance of the British Empire from a few hundred years ago, but we see how things have changed, and advanced since then.

 

[Trigger Hippie]

I am not familiar with Canada's "break"

We gave them a canoe and some maple syrup. In return they relinquished their involvement in our laws and constitution. We were forced to keep Quebec. It was all rather civilized.

 

[Gary Cook]

"It's almost as if the anti-fed movement actually wants another Waco, or Ruby Ridge, so they can use it as some kind of rallying cry for revolution."

This debunking thread is rather politically motivated it seems, quite statist. I get why that isn't a good idea a for a debunking thread now as all the rebuttals would be political too.

The guy offered to pay the fee's to the state rather than the Fed. Ownership is a an artifice while violence is very real. There are loads of political reasons to defend the guy and deem him a hero. All subjective though. As is part of the debunking.

I dont agree with people being able to graze anywhere they like as it would be chaos but the Fed violence is not the appropriate solution. There are also claims they over-step even their government policy authority by killing cattle etc.

Also, the family claim to have been grazing Cattle there before the laws. There is no evidence that they have to obey Feds policies, especially retroactive ones. In fact they didnt and the Fed havent enforced the law so far with them.

I hate to have to take this stance again but the way I see it is Bundy is defending the rights of my family as well as his own.

Ok, the thread is about the specific claim but there are political memes projected in addition to the basic claim.

For all we know it could be fracking motivated. It seems a fair assumption to me but thats the prob with being subjective. Its not something that can be effectively debated. As you are more than aware, with all due respect.

Specifically, he isn't "gone". He is clearly still there with his cattle. Regardless of the paperwork and legalese.

 

[Gary Cook]

So that gives a private citizen the right to use it for his own business?

That doesnt conversely mean the Fed own it just because there is no mechanism to decide who owns what in lieu of the Fed owning it.

 

[Gary Cook]

The dailypaul is not a reliable source....sighs.

Your claim is just a statement unless you can back it with facts. It has some real claims and some not, just like any publication.

 

[Cory Munson]

I believe this is not a true statement.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ween-cliven-bundy-and-the-federal-government/

Bundy has repeatedly been fined for grazing his cattle on the protected land, fines he has not paid since 1993. The Bureau of Land Management, which oversees about 800 grazing areas in Nevada, responded by revoking his permit. Bundy has not applied for a new one.

Content from External Source

Bundy states that his rights derive from the fact his Mormon ancestors were using the land far before the federal government claimed authority over it.

Content from External Source

(Oh dear....he's a Mormon?!)

And so is every Democrats favorite Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid...

 

[WeedWhacker]

And so is every Democrats favorite Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid...

Well then, they both deserve each other...Reid and Bundy.

Put them together in a locked room, and they can duke it out.

 

[Trigger Hippie]

There is no evidence that they have to obey Feds policies, especially retroactive ones.

He tried arguing that in court and lost every time. Nevada's constitution predates the Bundy's settling in Nevada. The paramount allegiance clause in Nevada's state constitution makes Bundy's argument a moot point.

 

[deirdre]

Fed violence is not the appropriate solution

what Fed violence? AS IT PERTAINS to BUNDY and the Farm. sources please.

 

[Gary Cook]

He tried arguing that in court and lost every time. Nevada's constitution predates the Bundy's settling in Nevada. The paramount allegiance clause in Nevada's state constitution makes Bundy's argument a moot point.

That's a very intellectual point and I mean that sincerely my friend but at the same time it still doesnt mean violence HAS to be committed against him or his cows. That is why most people there are defending him and elevating him to cult hero status.

 

[Gary Cook]

what Fed violence? AS IT PERTAINS to BUNDY and the Farm. sources please.

Well, members of his clan so to speak were tasered and from what I read some cows were killed.

Like I say, I dont agree he should be able to graze anywhere he fancies but this is the prob with political posts of which this seems to be one, partly.

 

[Bill]

Well, members of his clan so to speak were tasered and from what I read some cows were killed.

Like I say, I dont agree he should be able to graze anywhere he fancies but this is the prob with political posts of which this seems to be one, partly.

It really shouldn't be a political post or a political issue. It should be about the law and only the law. Certain people have seized upon this issue to turn it into a vehicle for political grandstanding while ignoring the fact that Bundy is in violation of the law and has opted to act outside the law for the last 20 years. That's one of the reasons you see so many different attempts at diverting the conversation from the central issue (everything from Harry Reid to water rights).

 

[Landru]

Well, members of his clan so to speak were tasered and from what I read some cows were killed.

Like I say, I dont agree he should be able to graze anywhere he fancies but this is the prob with political posts of which this seems to be one, partly.

Could you post the link to this please.

 

[Joe]

Its starts with a women who is tossed on the ground . Seems was getting very close to one of the moving vehicles when a BLM agent tosses her down . I seen the other video and Im not sure whether he was being aggressive or he actually thought she would be hit by the vehicle .?

 

[Joe]

Who is the real Crook . Billions wasted on Solar projects for political cronyism or a cattle rancher ? Or the millions of illegal aliens .Harry Reid calls them domestic terrorist but Major Nadal Hassan just committed workplace violence ? .

 

[NoParty]

How the Hell has this thread gone on for 9 pages?!?

There's no question that "fracking" has nothing to do with Bundy violating the law.

Further, his behavior violates Nevada law as well as established federal law...
the "pre-emptive grazing rights" Bundy now claims are a total legal fiction.

Lastly, anyone who says they're concerned about "violence" ought to be honest and admit that for decades the
"government has shown commendable restraint in allowing this trespass to continue" while gun-wielding outsiders
have now streamed into Nevada to use the threat of gun violence to keep the law from being upheld.

p.s. As a resident of the western U.S., who travels often to BLM lands, this is not as abstract a philosophical issue to me,
as it may be to some who have little idea of the role BLM plays here.

 

[SR1419]

Who is the real Crook . Billions wasted on Solar projects for political cronyism or a cattle rancher ? Or the millions of illegal aliens .Harry Reid calls them domestic terrorist but Major Nadal Hassan just committed workplace violence ? .

Joe- thats just obfuscation. 2 or 3 or 1000 wrongs don't make a right. Lots of waste and problems- they don't exonerate Bundy from being a law breaker anymore than you can get out of a speeding ticket by telling to cop their are too many "illegal aliens".

Do you respect the Rule of Law or do you subjectively apply it as it fits your bias?

Do you believe Bundy to be in the right here? Or is he breaking the Law and should be held accountable?

 

[Joe]

How the Hell has this thread gone on for 9 pages?!?

There's no question that "fracking" has nothing to do with Bundy violating the law.

Further, his behavior violates Nevada law as well as established federal law...
the "pre-emptive grazing rights" Bundy now claims are a total legal fiction.

Lastly, anyone who says they're concerned about "violence" ought to be honest and admit that for decades the
"government has shown commendable restraint in allowing this trespass to continue" while gun-wielding outsiders
have now streamed into Nevada to use the threat of gun violence to keep the law from being upheld.

p.s. As a resident of the western U.S., who travels often to BLM lands, this is not as abstract a philosophical issue to me,
as it may be to some who have little idea of the role BLM plays here.

That works fine when everyone obeys the law . That includes our public officials . We all know how crooked DC is on both sides of the political spectrum . They steal and waste trillions .Our governments main job is to protect the borders which they dont . They need to start setting examples . Until then expect thing to get worse . the reason the thread is still going is because their are many who believe like me it just not a case of disobeying the law .

 

[Joe]

Joe- thats just obfuscation. 2 or 3 or 1000 wrongs don't make a right. Lots of waste and problems- they don't exonerate Bundy from being a law breaker anymore than you can get out of a speeding ticket by telling to cop their are too many "illegal aliens".

Do you respect the Rule of Law or do you subjectively apply it as it fits your bias?

Do you believe Bundy to be in the right here? Or is he breaking the Law and should be held accountable?

other than a few speeding tickets I obey the law . Those laws that he broke were not established by congress but by some not elected bureaucrat . Bundy is a target of the Environmentalist . Look at the Keystone pipeline . they dont want a pipeline for many reasons . Warren Buffet owns the train that transports the oil . They dont want to flood the market with more oil which could lower the price of crude hurting alternative power such as solar and wind . Its all cronyism bullshit . So he blocks the Keystone and earlier in the week, the Energy Department guaranteed at least $2.5 billion in loans for "innovative" solar projects. What happened to Sonlydra ? they are robbing us blind and we are worried about money not payed by some rancher ? It doesnt make sense unless they are trying to send a message . What about your bias ? that why many disagree with me and the rancher because of political bias . If that were some poor black cotton farmer in the south what would the media and the left think then ? http://www.industryweek.com/environment/obama-launches-measures-boost-us-solar-energy-production

 

[Svartbjørn]

That works fine when everyone obeys the law

Then end of thread.. Bundy broke the law.

 

[SR1419]

other than a few speeding tickets I obey the law . Those laws that he broke were not established by congress but by some not elected bureaucrat . Bundy is a target of the Environmentalist . Look at the Keystone pipeline . they dont want a pipeline for many reasons . Warren Buffet owns the train that transports the oil . They dont want to flood the market with more oil which could lower the price of crude hurting alternative power such as solar and wind . Its all cronyism bullshit . So he blocks the Keystone and earlier in the week, the Energy Department guaranteed at least $2.5 billion in loans for "innovative" solar projects. What happened to Sonlydra ? they are robbing us blind and we are worried about money not payed by some rancher ? It doesnt make sense unless they are trying to send a message . What about your bias ? that why many disagree with me and the rancher because of political bias . If that were some poor black cotton farmer in the south what would the media and the left think then ? http://www.industryweek.com/environment/obama-launches-measures-boost-us-solar-energy-production

More obfuscation- why do you bob and weave behind partisan BS instead of dealing with the issue at hand?

The laws that empower the BLM were established by elected officials.

(Keystone is off topic- but the shale from Alberta that would be transported is not bound for the US market...and will find its way to the global market one way or another so your logic is flawed. The pipeline will get passed- just after the mid-term elections in Nov.)

Why not simply answer the question: Do you believe Bundy is breaking the law and should be help accountable?

Enforcing laws does make sense.

 

[Gary Cook]

How the Hell has this thread gone on for 9 pages?!?

There's no question that "fracking" has nothing to do with Bundy violating the law.

Further, his behavior violates Nevada law as well as established federal law...
the "pre-emptive grazing rights" Bundy now claims are a total legal fiction.

Lastly, anyone who says they're concerned about "violence" ought to be honest and admit that for decades the
"government has shown commendable restraint in allowing this trespass to continue" while gun-wielding outsiders
have now streamed into Nevada to use the threat of gun violence to keep the law from being upheld.

p.s. As a resident of the western U.S., who travels often to BLM lands, this is not as abstract a philosophical issue to me,
as it may be to some who have little idea of the role BLM plays here.

Conscripting people to shoot people who instigate violence against you and/or your property is self-defence, no? And they didnt shoot anybody anyway. They were metely there with guns implying they would IF certain conditions became true.

You made me laugh with the 9 pages in a sincere way lol but at the same time people tend to post debunks that are more emotive than those that are not and also there is a bit of a political intended intention as I have quoted in a previous comment above somewhere.

 

[Gary Cook]

Then end of thread.. Bundy broke the law.

A law of physics or government policy?

 

[moderateGOP]

Your claim is just a statement unless you can back it with facts. It has some real claims and some not, just like any publication.

its about as reliable as 4chan and reddit for so-called news