Debunked: Bundy Ranch Dispute as BLM exploiting Fracking Rights

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deirdre

Senior Member.
No I dont . That was the plan . HMM water rights ?

no, I mean aside from all that. he needs over 100,000 acres to feed his cows. it's not a snarky question, I really am wondering. I'm not a rancher so I don't know what all this means, just seems extremely inefficient to raise cattle in a desert area. http://beefmagazine.com/blog/profit-cow-or-acre
 

SR1419

Senior Member.

Grazing fees on public land SHOULD be raised! They haven't changed in over 25yrs!! Bundy is getting a tremendous subsidy.

http://www.kcet.org/news/redefine/r...g-fee-the-same-as-2013-and-2012-and-2011.html

Cattle grazing on the Nevada range:

[/ex]
 

WeedWhacker

Senior Member
The cattle I see in California are raised like this (Harris Ranch)


Quite interesting....and quite different from the "IMAGE" that is being attempted to convey, RE: Cliven Bundy, and his herd of cattle....

EDIT: We hear much about "Free Range Chicken"...well, possibly, that meat of those butchered birds might be better tasting than, say....a chicken raised in a confined cage, used just to lay eggs.

BUT...isn't a starved cow or bull the exact opposite of (A) Human compassion to our fellow animals and, (B) Not conducive to a "great steak"??

Sorry for any Vegans or Vegetarians out there. I happen to enjoy protein. But, at the same time, it appears that Mr. Bundy is not providing for his herd of cattle, in an appropriate and humane manner.

Has this fact not yet been addressed?
 
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WeedWhacker

Senior Member
Right, so that was the cost back in 1993. Now I'd like the person that I addressed my original question to give the cost after the tortoise issue, to see if the rise was indeed exorbitant as claimed.

"Shooting from the hip, as usual"??

(Sorry...just a joke. Surgical precision, as usual!!!).
 

RyanBiv

New Member
you honestly think Bundy has a viable business model with his current set up?

No I dont . That was the plan .

This is the problem. Bundy is a bad rancher who hasn't adapted or done what was necessary to run a successful ranch or business. Not only is he not paying the grazing fees which gives him more space in the allowed zone outside of his private 160 acres, he's letting his sometimes ill-cared for cattle roam WAY beyond that point.

You point to the long history as evidence it's the feds harassing him when to me it shows how easy on him they've been in trying to work with him. I mean, setting off pipe bombs on government property? The feds have shown enormous constraint this entire time and he's fortunate to be in a position where he still has a chance to do the right thing, stop blaming the government and concentrate on being a successful rancher...or find a new line of work like any other failed businessman would do.
 
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Balance

Senior Member.
Someone mentioned a powerful US national ranchers association or somesuch. Do they exist and do they have any say in this controversy?
 

Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
Someone mentioned a powerful US national ranchers association or somesuch. Do they exist and do they have any say in this controversy?

Not sure on the national level but in Nevada...

They've also commented on how the protection of endangered species is impacting their ability to make a living.

 
J

Joe

Guest
Grazing fees on public land SHOULD be raised! They haven't changed in over 25yrs!! Bundy is getting a tremendous subsidy.

http://www.kcet.org/news/redefine/r...g-fee-the-same-as-2013-and-2012-and-2011.html

Cattle grazing on the Nevada range:

[/ex]
recent efforts by the Obama administration to raise grazing fees or pressure permit holders to transfer their water rights as a condition of renewal, You forgot the water issue fpr some reason ? are you OK with that as well ?
 
J

Joe

Guest
The cattle I see in California are raised like this (Harris Ranch)
Looks kinda cramped . We have plenty of cattle in Florida and it doesnt look anything like that . They seem quite comfortable here compared to there .
 
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J

Joe

Guest
Someone mentioned a powerful US national ranchers association or somesuch. Do they exist and do they have any say in this controversy?
They said they wanted to stay neutral on this . If I find where I read it Ill post it ,
 
J

Joe

Guest
This is the problem. Bundy is a bad rancher who hasn't adapted or done what was necessary to run a successful ranch or business. Not only is he not paying the grazing fees which gives him more space in the allowed zone outside of his private 160 acres, he's letting his sometimes ill-cared for cattle roam WAY beyond that point.

You point to the long history as evidence it's the feds harassing him when to me it shows how easy on him they've been in trying to work with him. I mean, setting off pipe bombs on government property? The feds have shown enormous constraint this entire time and he's fortunate to be in a position where he still has a chance to do the right thing, stop blaming the government and concentrate on being a successful rancher...or find a new line of work like any other failed businessman would do.
There are a lot of people who run their business they way they want to . Who determines how a individual runs their own business ? Especially when they are being regulated out of business .
 
J

Joe

Guest
Considering they would assume to mostly represent the ranchers, doesn't their lack of support speak volumes?
Sure because if something bad would happen it might reflect on them . Another worthless organization that probably only supports Big Cattle . Screw the little guy .
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
recent efforts by the Obama administration to raise grazing fees or pressure permit holders to transfer their water rights as a condition of renewal, You forgot the water issue fpr some reason ? are you OK with that as well ?

As noted, grazing fees NEED to be raised as they have not even kept up with inflation for 25yrs and it is creating a perverse incentive to continue to produce on marginal land. If he tried to graze on private land he would have to pay $15-20 per cow per month. You should agree with this Joe- take the Feds out of it- let the market decide. If he was on private land and had to pay market prices he would have been out of business long ago. He is living on the govt teat.

To be honest, I haven't followed the details on the water rights- can you- as unbiased and evenly as possible- summarize the situation? (or anyone?)


There are a lot of people who run their business they way they want to . Who determines how a individual runs their own business ? Especially when they are being regulated out of business .

No. He is not being regulated out of business. He is refusing to adapt to changing market conditions...and then trying to obfuscate that reality by wrapping himself in flawed interpretation of the constitution
 

CapnPegleg

Member
recent efforts by the Obama administration to raise grazing fees or pressure permit holders to transfer their water rights as a condition of renewal, You forgot the water issue fpr some reason ? are you OK with that as well ?

Any evidence of this?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Here the link to the story . If you read it youll see how they sent armed men into Gibson Guitar as well to confiscate wood ? Gibson finally got the wood back and they are now selling special edition Government Guitars made with the wood seized . Thug Government . http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/15/culture-of-intimidation-seen-in-nevada-ranch-stand/

Nobody likes thugs. But how would you suggest that law be enforced? If someone refuses to comply with federal law, then what should be the next step that federal authorities take?

It seems like the real issue is that the tea-party types reject all federal jurisdiction, and hence any law enforcement action is seen as thuggery.

So what should the Feds do? Nothing? Ask real nice?
 
J

Joe

Guest
As noted, grazing fees NEED to be raised as they have not even kept up with inflation for 25yrs and it is creating a perverse incentive to continue to produce on marginal land. If he tried to graze on private land he would have to pay $15-20 per cow per month. You should agree with this Joe- take the Feds out of it- let the market decide. If he was on private land and had to pay market prices he would have been out of business long ago. He is living on the govt teat.

To be honest, I haven't followed the details on the water rights- can you- as unbiased and evenly as possible- summarize the situation? (or anyone?)




No. He is not being regulated out of business. He is refusing to adapt to changing market conditions...and then trying to obfuscate that reality by wrapping himself in flawed interpretation of the constitution
I posted my opinion on the water rights issue after looking at the Mansion Next to Bundys ranch which looks like a dump . So I did a search on the address and the owner of the property and found out he was bribing the local water athority with 1.3 million dollars . He purchased his land under forecloser ( probably some poor smuck the BLM forced out ) and found he paid 600,000 and the water rights was worth millions . Well Bundys ranch is also on the Virgin River and he owns the water rights . The story involving Obama administration only confirms my suspicion on this being mostly about water . So it wasnt to be partisan . The Bribery guy never was charge but has to pay back millions to the water authority . He was a republican donor .
 

RyanBiv

New Member
There are a lot of people who run their business they way they want to . Who determines how a individual runs their own business ? Especially when they are being regulated out of business .

Sure, people run their businesses how they see fit, but they all start from the same baseline. They all have to pay the same fees, taxes, fill out the same paperwork, follow the same laws. Bundy is choosing to ignore them completely.
 
J

Joe

Guest
Nobody likes thugs. But how would you suggest that law be enforced? If someone refuses to comply with federal law, then what should be the next step that federal authorities take?

It seems like the real issue is that the tea-party types reject all federal jurisdiction, and hence any law enforcement action is seen as thuggery.

So what should the Feds do? Nothing? Ask real nice?
No a thug is what they did to Gibson . when you burst into a place with AR -15 to confiscate wood that pretty thuggish . Or when your intent is to get water rights . He is the last Public rancher in the whole county . Doesn't that tell you something ?
 
J

Joe

Guest
Sure, people run their businesses how they see fit, but they all start from the same baseline. They all have to pay the same fees, taxes, fill out the same paperwork, follow the same laws. Bundy is choosing to ignore them completely.
Sure and when they keep making up new ones with the intent of destroying your business in the end . You should just comply ?
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
http://freebeacon.com/issues/the-rise-of-the-west/

So? You should be glad that there are so few people being subsidized by the government. There are still many ranchers in Nevada that are able to make it work. Why can't Bundy?

Public Grazing is flawed for many reasons and Bundy is a prime example- look at this economic analysis for a better understanding of the role of public grazing in Western US livestock production.

http://www.publiclandsranching.org/htmlres/wr_taking_stock.htm

 

SR1419

Senior Member.
No a thug is what they did to Gibson . when you burst into a place with AR -15 to confiscate wood that pretty thuggish . Or when your intent is to get water rights . He is the last Public rancher in the whole county . Doesn't that tell you something ?

This is off topic...but AR 15? can you show that to be true- or is it just exaggeration- all the pictures of the raid I have seen show only hand guns in holsters.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424053111903895904576542942027859286

 

SR1419

Senior Member.
I posted my opinion on the water rights issue after looking at the Mansion Next to Bundys ranch which looks like a dump . So I did a search on the address and the owner of the property and found out he was bribing the local water athority with 1.3 million dollars . He purchased his land under forecloser ( probably some poor smuck the BLM forced out ) and found he paid 600,000 and the water rights was worth millions . Well Bundys ranch is also on the Virgin River and he owns the water rights . The story involving Obama administration only confirms my suspicion on this being mostly about water . So it wasnt to be partisan . The Bribery guy never was charge but has to pay back millions to the water authority . He was a republican donor .


Bundy doesnt think its a about water rights...not sure why you would- just because his republican neighbor was corrupt?

Of course, you completely ignored the economic reality of Bundy and all public grazers being heavily subsidized by the government. Shouldn't all the land be private and ranchers have to pay market prices for pasture?
 

RyanBiv

New Member
Sure and when they keep making up new ones with the intent of destroying your business in the end . You should just comply ?

I don't see any evidence of the government trying to destroy his business.

We're talking about 1 thing the federal government is asking for: fees to graze. Had Bundy paid and kept his cattle where those fees give him access, this wouldn't be a story. In fact, if Bundy wanted to prove the government had ulterior motives all he has to do is pay the fees, then the gov't would need to find another reason to bring him down, right?

But, as SR1419 said, Bundy himself isn't bringing up the amount of the fees or anything related to water rights or any other interests. Check out the recent interviews he's done. It all comes back to him not recognizing the federal government as the lawful owner of any land in Nevada, that's it.
 
J

Joe

Guest
This is off topic...but AR 15? can you show that to be true- or is it just exaggeration- all the pictures of the raid I have seen show only hand guns in holsters.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424053111903895904576542942027859286

who took the pictures ?
http://foxnewsinsider.com/sites/foxnewsinsider.com/files/020414_gibson_1050.jpg
 
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WeedWhacker

Senior Member
I was wondering, about the IRS (Mick)...and whether Mr. Bundy's tax returns as a businessman have been examined.

One would think, if it was the "Evil Government", then the IRS would have interceded years ago???
 

gringo

New Member
You need to include links to your references.
I went to the BLM site, and the mitigation facilities for the proposed ENN solar field were going to be at Gold Butte. I read SOMEWHERE that the tortoises actually have a fondness for fresh cow dung. I guess hot meals are few and far between for desert tortoises.
 

Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
I posted my opinion on the water rights...

You keep mentioning water rights but never actually explain your conspiracy theory.

The allegation against the neighbour, Mr. Lonetti, is that he bribed some county officials to help him sell his water rights to the Southern Nevada Water Authority at an over inflated price (about double the real value). Also, the guy allegedly sold surface water rights that he didn't even own.

So the neighbour guy allegedly screws the government out of millions of dollars. What is it that you think you have discovered? What does this have to do with Bundy and the BLM?
 

Cory Munson

New Member
Great comment by Judge Andrew Napolitano three days ago: “Look, the federal government has a legitimate valid court order. But they don't have to enforce it by bringing in militaristic techniques. They don't have to enforce it by stealing his private property. They can enforce it by filing a document in a courthouse which will enable them to collect the money to which they are entitled when he dies or when his property otherwise passes to somebody else and they know that”.

So Dirty Harry gets his thong in a wad when some real Patriots show up to stop the Tyranny. Actually what he is really upset about is that in his mind and that of his ilk anyone that anyone/group who opposes the militant actions of the federal government is a Terrorist Red Neck Hillbilly(s) and they are supposed to start shooting, not wait on the BLM to start the shooting. Dam the bad luck once again a liberal paradigm of shoot’em up gun happy Racist Red Neck Hillbilly’s fails big time.

Plus the BLM caused extensive damage the fragile desert foliage they were supposedly protecting by rounding up cattle that were causing damage?? Also there may be evidence of Desert Tortoises that were ran over by BLM/Contractor vehicles and borrows collapsed. All that on top of the reported 40 shot cattle that they were supposed to be caring for, what a waste. Wow that’s a brilliant job there BLM!!

If you listen to Mr. Bundy he had said he would pay his fair grazing fees. But he stopped because the BLM were using those fees to manage him out of business instead of managing the land. BLM also has a great record keeping the dope growers off public land too NOT. I wonder if BLM has gone after dope growers for growing fees??? Oh yah the cartels shoot first, they don’t wait…US citizens are easier to bully…

Basically what is happening is that BLM requires herd reduction down a level that is unsustainable to run his ranching business. Free range chicken good… Free range cattle or any herbivore very bad… That seems to be the Government’s stance.

If you think about it this has been happening to businesses that manufacture all durable goods or produce products for manufacturing. Through increased tighter regulations the Federal Government has shutdown manufacturing and raw materials production which has forced it outside our borders. At no time do we ever hear of achieving an economical balance of environment protection and business viability. It is always the same line profit making business or Capitalism is killing the Earth so now we are becoming the most regulated economy in world. As a nation are caught up in a mindset if any process uses chemicals, carbon, lead and or metal then the emission of particulates, gases and must be at a zero emission standard to be good intellectual nation. This is a completely impossible goal to meet and why the only two sectors of growth are Government and the Service Industry with all major manufacturing exported to mainly to Asia along with what raw materials we are still allowed to mine. Our Manufacturing capacity is about 25% of what we could produce 30 to 40 years ago. If we ever get cut off from imported goods the real desperation will set in and folks will learn what it is live the real Green life style as it was back around 1900, but without electricity. Watch the movie Soylent Green for a little insight for what happens when the serfs are at mercy of their masters when everything they know falls apart.
 
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