Debunked: Bundy Ranch Dispute as BLM exploiting Fracking Rights

[woodsman]

Cattle are not the enemy of desert tortoise. The ravens are...

The fact that ravens might predate on the turtle in that particular area doesn't let the cattle off the hook. That fact that the cattle are detrimental to the Turtle survival has already been established - existence of another and harder to control factor just makes the situation that more serious.

 

[Trigger Hippie]

Well a lot of acreage is open to Variance in the area of the Bundy Ranch according to official BLM map and it has to do with Solar Power production. So something smells rotten…

The areas earmarked for solar development seem to be the blue striped regions within the red circles. The green rectangle is approximately the region where Cliven Bundy's cattle have been grazing illegally. None of the solar development regions fall within the deputed land. Furthermore, it doesn't look like any of the contested land is open to solar development.

Edit: The pink and yellow zones are exclusion areas closed to solar development. Exclusion areas are defined on the Solar Energy Development PEIS website as:

The remaining exclusion categories are defined by the presence of a specific land use designation in an applicable land use plan (e.g., Areas of Critical Environmental Concern, exclusion category 3) or the presence of a specific resource or condition (e.g., designated or proposed critical habitat for ESA-listed species, exclusion category 4).

So what exactly do you find suspicious about all of this?

 

[Joe]

What exactly do you find suspicious?

Edit: The pink and yellow zones are exclusion areas closed to solar development.
http://solareis.anl.gov/maps/alternatives/index.cfm

View attachment 6868[/QUOTE]
It doesnt matter where the solar development is . its the land used for mitigation land to replace the acreage lost to the environment by the solar facilities .
Mitigation for solar energy projects

The hinge-point of this investigation is, however, the "mitigation" project for Gold Butte, which lies just south of Bunkerville, Nevada. A swath of northern Gold Butte is where the Bundy cattle graze. BLM designated Gold Butte an "Area of Critical Environmental Concern" (ACEC) in 1998. It's one of several ACECs in Nevada. Two of them are visible in red on Map 2 below: the Gold Butte ACEC (the larger one to the east), and the Coyote Springs ACEC (the smaller one to the west).

Map 2. BLM map of environmentally critical areas around the Dry Lake SEZ. ("Regional Mitigation Strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone"; see text for link to source.) http://libertyunyielding.com/2014/0...oise-chinese-solar-farm-sponsored-harry-reid/

 

[Bill]

He's a lawmaker - one would expect him to be irritated by the people who flout the law for personal gain.

Harry Reid's not exactly a paragon of virtues but he is irrelevant to the Bundy situation. He's being used to say "Harry gets away with stuff so Cliven should be able to." It's a grade school level justification.

 

[Joe]

I guess its not the only solar project in that area ? http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2013...ons-renewable-energy-development-tribal-lands

 

[Joe]

http://solarmapper.anl.gov/solarmapper/ according to Solar Mapper Bundys ranch is in the middle of ACEC Area of Critical Environmental Concern

 

[Trigger Hippie]

its the land used for mitigation land to replace the acreage lost to the environment by the solar facilities .

What are you trying to say? That isn't even a full sentence.

I guess its not the only solar project in that area ?

So what?

http://solarmapper.anl.gov/solarmapper/ according to Solar Mapper Bundys ranch is in the middle of ACEC Area of Critical Environmental Concern

No, Bundy's ranch is the little green square seen in Mick's post #81. The land Bundy has been using to illegally graze his cattle is in the middle of an area of critical environmental concern. That's one of the main issues: His cattle are grazing on protected lands that he does not own and is not allowed to use.

 

[deirdre]

http://solarmapper.anl.gov/solarmapper/ according to Solar Mapper Bundys ranch is in the middle of ACEC Area of Critical Environmental Concern

this tortoise thing has been going on since 1979, how long have these solar plans been in place.:

http://ecos.fws.gov/docs/federal_register/fr1617.pdf

from site: http://ecos.fws.gov/speciesProfile/profile/speciesProfile.action?spcode=C04L

 

[Joe]

What are you trying to say? That isn't even a full sentence.

They need his land for mitigation . Not even a full sentence ? you couldnt figure out what I was saying ?


The more land they used for solar projects the more Mitigation land they need .


They are trying to bankrupt the last rancher . No ! All the land surrounding his ranch is ACEC . You cant make a living off of 150 cattle in that area . Which is what they limited him to . It is more than him owing grazing fees . They want him gone completely .

 

[woodsman]

Solar projects nearby don't change the facts of this case which are that Cliven Bundy is a scofflaw and his cows have been trespassing on the land he does not own for the last 20 years. The fact that the government might have some plans for the land contrary to mr. Bundy's wishes is of no concern to mr. Bundy since he does not own that land.

 

[deirdre]

They want him gone completel

I imagine no other county else wants him now either.

 

[Joe]

this tortoise thing has been going on since 1979, how long have these solar plans been in place.:
View attachment 6869 http://ecos.fws.gov/docs/federal_register/fr1617.pdf

from site: http://ecos.fws.gov/speciesProfile/profile/speciesProfile.action?spcode=C04L

Im sure only recently the Solar Plans have been in place . Its the environmental wackos pushing their green agenda while lining their pockets . Im not sure its all about solar ? I think the fact that his ranch is right on the Virgin River might be more about water ? . Maybe people should pay more attention to his wealthy Neighbor trying to sell his water rights ?

Winters is the former General Manager of the Virgin Valley Water District (VVWD), Johnson is the former VVWD Chief Hydrologist, and Coache is a retired deputy state engineer with the Nevada Division of Water Resources. The three men have been charged in a 50-count indictment for allegedly taking $1.3 million dollars in bribe money to help wealthy Bunkerville rancher John Lonetti sell water rights to Southern Nevada Water Authority.

http://mesquitecitizen.com/viewnews.php?newsid=6862&id=3

 

[deirdre]

Im sure only recently the Solar Plans have been in place . Its the environmental wackos pushing their green agenda while lining their pockets . Im not sure its all about solar ? I think the fact that his ranch is right on the Virgin River might be more about water ? . Maybe people should pay more attention to his wealthy Neighbor trying to sell his water rights ?

Winters is the former General Manager of the Virgin Valley Water District (VVWD), Johnson is the former VVWD Chief Hydrologist, and Coache is a retired deputy state engineer with the Nevada Division of Water Resources. The three men have been charged in a 50-count indictment for allegedly taking $1.3 million dollars in bribe money to help wealthy Bunkerville rancher John Lonetti sell water rights to Southern Nevada Water Authority.

http://mesquitecitizen.com/viewnews.php?newsid=6862&id=3

I thought Bundy was the only rancher left.

I think it has more to do with preserving the habitat. there are only 4 counties in Nevada that have the tortoises (somewhere in my above site link). It is a bummer if you cant expand your business, but thems the breaks...happens to lots of folk in lots of places due to zoning etc. If Bundy had just reduced his herd OR only let them graze certain seasons this issue probably would have been ignored indefinitely.
I'm not allowed to have more than 100 cows on my half acre either ; ( It's totally unfair!!!

 

[Joe]

I thought Bundy was the only rancher left.

I think it has more to do with preserving the habitat. there are only 4 counties in Nevada that have the tortoises (somewhere in my above site link). It is a bummer if you cant expand your business, but thems the breaks...happens to lots of folk in lots of places due to zoning etc. If Bundy had just reduced his herd OR only let them graze certain seasons this issue probably would have been ignored indefinitely.
I'm not allowed to have more than 100 cows on my half acre either ; ( It's totally unfair!!!

Fine when we have to eat beef imported from China you'll all understand then horse ranch

 

[Trigger Hippie]

They are trying to bankrupt the last rancher .

The guy is bankrupting himself by refusing to abide by court orders.

You cant make a living off of 150 cattle in that area. They are trying to bankrupt the last rancher .

Ya, so he couldn't make a living off his own land. He had to use communal land to make a living... communal land! That's socialism. Then the communist deadbeat refused to pay fees and robbed the American people for 20 years. After "We The People" demanded our money, the thieving socialist deadbeat recruited U.N. paramilitary fascists wackos to threaten unarmed truck drivers and hired hands. Bet he also wants to build an agenda 21 bicycle path. LOL

So easy to build a story without evidence.

 

[deirdre]

Fine when we have to eat beef imported from China you'll all understand then

No offense, but he's ridiculous. if your cows have to walk , what was it? 10,000 acres away to find grass that's a problem. There are plenty of empty spaces in America with actual rainfall he could move those poor cows to.

 

[WeedWhacker]

Fine when we have to eat beef imported from China...

Now, the claim being made is that this rancher Bundy supplies all of the beef cattle in the United States? Doesn't that seem the least bit ridiculous?

 

[Joe]

Now, the claim being made is that this rancher Bundy supplies all of the beef cattle in the United States? Doesn't that seem the least bit ridiculous?

No its not > ask any cattle rancher today what they have to do to comply . Remember the UN also wants to reduce methane coming from cow farts also . Greenhouse gas . Now that ridiculous . I think its about water rights and their value . Google earth his ranch and look whats south of him . Quite a spread compared to Bundys ranch . Brought under foreclosure and worth millions . Mainly for the water rights . You think Bundys cost the taxpayers money ? Check out his neighbor ? Bribery Scandal ? http://mesquitecitizen.com/viewnews.php?newsid=7359&id=3

 

[Joe]

No offense, but he's ridiculous. if your cows have to walk , what was it? 10,000 acres away to find grass that's a problem. There are plenty of empty spaces in America with actual rainfall he could move those poor cows to.

View attachment 6870

Its a empty desert the cows fertilize for free . This is not about his so called fees either

 

[deirdre]

Its a empty desert the cows fertilize for free . This is not about his so called fees either

yes. he broke a lot more laws then just ranching without a permit. I agree.

 

[Joe]

yes. he broke a lot more laws then just ranching without a permit. I agree.

WHATEVER !

 

[Joe]

Hers somthing for you guys

Between the 2005 water transaction and the 2008 water transaction, Lonetti made about $17 million dollars. He still owns Meadowland Farm.

You still think its about Grazing fees ? pdf http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/media...a/lcla_feis.Par.18659.File.dat/Appendix D.pdf

 

[Pete Tar]

How does that make it not about illegal grazing? That is an undisputed and well-documented fact.
You're just finding any thing else to make it about, for some reason it can't just be about the grazing.

 

[deirdre]

Hers somthing for you guys

Between the 2005 water transaction and the 2008 water transaction, Lonetti made about $17 million dollars. He still owns Meadowland Farm.

You still think its about Grazing fees ?

I thought part of that was Bundys place. I'm confused now. and honestly cant follow the water sale thing.
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=36.711557&lon=-114.245392&z=15&m=b&show=/10736301/Meadowland-Farm
its for sale. and says 246 acres of virgin river surface water. http://www.century21.com/property/2710-amp-2725-river-cliff-rd-bunkerville-nv-89007-ERA21556635

I think the conservationists gave a legal 60 day notice of lawsuit for "willful negligence" against BLM and the county and that is the only reason they are NOW finally acting. that's my take on the situation.

 

[Cory Munson]

He's a lawmaker - one would expect him to be irritated by the people who flout the law for personal gain.

Those pesky laws they always get in the way when trying to spread some Cheddar around the family. Yup he gets real mad when he gets caught committing Campaign Finance Fraud Too... Gets out the check book real quick to clean up the Holiday Gift mess so he doesn't get fined and administrative action by the FEC...

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/harry-reid-gifts-fec-105017.html

 

[Joe]

How does that make it not about illegal grazing? That is an undisputed and well-documented fact.
You're just finding any thing else to make it about, for some reason it can't just be about the grazing.

It doesnt make any sense theyd send armed agents over grazing fees ? Bundy says its 300,000 and the government says its over a million . Seems to me he could have made way more money selling his water rights for millions as his crooked neighbor did ? Water in that area is worth a fortune . Why be so closed minded to believe what the Media and feds or Alex Jones tells us ? Compare the two properties . Bundys look like a junkyard and the neighbor house looks like a resort ,

 

[Joe]

I thought part of that was Bundys place. I'm confused now. and honestly cant follow the water sale thing.
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=36.711557&lon=-114.245392&z=15&m=b&show=/10736301/Meadowland-Farm
its for sale. and says 246 acres of virgin river surface water. http://www.century21.com/property/2710-amp-2725-river-cliff-rd-bunkerville-nv-89007-ERA21556635

I think the conservationists gave a legal 60 day notice of lawsuit for "willful negligence" against BLM and the county and that is the only reason they are NOW finally acting. that's my take on the situation.

This was in yestedays paper http://www.thespectrum.com/viewart/...04140013/VVWD-ponders-settlement-John-Lonetti Seems the locals are going to pay almst 85% more for their water because of the Bribery and corruption .

 

[deirdre]

This was in yestedays paper http://www.thespectrum.com/viewart/...04140013/VVWD-ponders-settlement-John-Lonetti Seems the locals are going to pay almst 85% more for their water because of the Bribery and corruption .

no your link says :

Nevertheless, residents' rates may go up due to 85 percent of the district's revenue coming from water sales

my cl&p rates went up 25% this winter ; (

 

[Cory Munson]

The areas earmarked for solar development seem to be the blue striped regions within the red circles. The green rectangle is approximately the region where Cliven Bundy's cattle have been grazing illegally. None of the solar development regions fall within the deputed land. Furthermore, it doesn't look like any of the contested land is open to solar development.

Edit: The pink and yellow zones are exclusion areas closed to solar development. Exclusion areas are defined on the Solar Energy Development PEIS website as:

The remaining exclusion categories are defined by the presence of a specific land use designation in an applicable land use plan (e.g., Areas of Critical Environmental Concern, exclusion category 3) or the presence of a specific resource or condition (e.g., designated or proposed critical habitat for ESA-listed species, exclusion category 4).

So what exactly do you find suspicious about all of this?


View attachment 6868

I was not writing about Solar Energy Zones...I was writing about Variance Areas on the map.

Ops someone failed map reading 101. The ares of shaded blue on the map and indicated by the map key in blue, are Variance Areas Identified through the Solar PEIS Record of Decision (9,100,000 Acres).

In Zoning law, an official permit to use property in a manner that departs from the way in which other property in the same locality can be used is a Variance. So that area is awaiting application for Variance.

 

[Mick West]

Keep it polite please ladies and gentlemen. Let's just stick with verifiable and well sourced facts, not personal attacks.

 

[Pete Tar]

It doesnt make any sense theyd send armed agents over grazing fees ?

It does make sense to send armed agents to protect people doing their job from the threat of armed militias who have pledged to stop them.
There wouldn't have been any need for armed agents if Bundy hadn't escalated the situation and called for militia support!

They hoped the situation would explode.

Former Arizona Sheriff Richard Mack revealed on Monday that he and other organizers who traveled to Clark County, Nev., to support Cliven Bundy during his land dispute with the feds planned to put women on the front lines in case the "rogue federal officers" started shooting.

Mack made the chilling revelation on Fox News' "The Real Story" Monday, two days after the tense standoff between Bundy and the federal government came to a peaceful end.

"We were actually strategizing to put all the women up at the front," he said. "If they are going to start shooting, it's going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rogue federal officers."
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...-up-at-the-front-during-bundy-ranch-standoff/

 

[Soulfly]

Just think, if Bundy had payed his fees and stayed within the heard size there wouldn't be anything to back the Feds on. If they were still trying to take his land.

Except those cute little tortoises.

 

[woodsman]

Just think, if Bundy had payed his fees and stayed within the heard size there wouldn't be anything to back the Feds on. If they were still trying to take his land.

Except those cute little tortoises.

Let's keep it real.
A. They didn't come to take the land he owns.
B. Bundy owes grazing fees, fines, damages and other costs
C. They came to impound trespassing cows.

Anybody disputes these facts?

And to mr. Bundy: Perhaps the reason you can't make a living raising cows on 150 acres you own, it just might be that, in the words of a comedian:

 

[Bill]

Just think, if Bundy had payed his fees and stayed within the heard size there wouldn't be anything to back the Feds on. If they were still trying to take his land.

Except those cute little tortoises.

Rule #1 - Only save the cute animals.

 

[scombrid]

It doesnt make any sense theyd send armed agents over grazing fees ?

It makes sense to send armed agents if you are carrying out a court order to remove the cattle and the trespasser has threatened a "range war" if you do so.


Removing several hundred cows from over 100,000 acreas of desert is no small operation and given Bundy's threats of violence and all the talk on forums like Free Republic and Stormfront then I'd say armed agents make a lot of sense.

 

[scombrid]

Its a empty desert the cows fertilize for free .

Cows do not enrich the desert, especially when you put more of them on a patch of land than it can support.

This is not about his so called fees either

True. It is mostly about trespassing.

 

[Trigger Hippie]

I was writing about Variance Areas on the map.

Yes, I know, "the variances"... what about them? You haven't answered the question. What exactly do you find suspicious about all of this?

Ops someone failed map reading 101. The ares of shaded blue on the map and indicated by the map key in blue, are Variance Areas Identified through the Solar PEIS Record of Decision (9,100,000 Acres).

What do the variances have to do with Bundy's ranch or the government land he has been trespassing on for the last 20 years?

 

[Trigger Hippie]

Rule #1 - Only save the cute animals.

Rule #0 - Always blame it on "them".

 

[scombrid]

Why be so closed minded to believe what the Media and feds or Alex Jones tells us ?

I'll go with the court rulings against Bundy and the finding of fact contained therein. Don't really need the media at this point.

 

[Soulfly]

Let's keep it real.
A. They didn't come to take the land he owns.
B. Bundy owes grazing fees, fines, damages and other costs
C. They came to impound trespassing cows.

Anybody disputes these facts?

And to mr. Bundy: Perhaps the reason you can't make a living raising cows on 150 acres you own, it just might be that, in the words of a comedian:

Oh I keep it real, the PP prevents me from keeping it more real though! I'm not disputing anything, but those on Bundy's side , are claiming the feds want his land. If he had payed his fines it seems, at least from their point of view, there would be no reason left to stand against Bundy.

Except for those cute tortoises.


Adding to try and be more clear.
Bundy supporters claim the reasons given, (tortoise, trespassing, not paying fines) are all excuses to grab his land. Well if he had payed his fines and not trespassed there would only be one excuse left.