Debunked: Bundy Ranch Dispute as BLM exploiting Fracking Rights

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Trigger Hippie said:
I found this document from the Center for Biological Diversity which has a nice short recap of the situation.

It seems in the mid 1990's Bundy wanted to pay the grazing fees to the county rather than the feds. The county refused the money because it was not theirs to collect. In 1998 Clark County purchased the grazing rights and retired them. Basically, in 1998, the county forbade everyone from using the land. So now, Bundy owed the past due grazing fees and the accumulating fines. Both of which he refused to pay, and he continued letting his cattle graze on the forbidden allotment.

It's interesting how much of the rhetoric involves cries of the the federal government staying out of state affairs, when it seems that it's the local government (Clark County) that doesn't want cattle grazing in the Bunkerville allotment.

External Quote:
In 1993, the BLM began administrative processes to address grazing by permitee Cliven Bundy which was occurring without a valid permit. In 1994, the BLM declared Mr. Bundy in trespass and ordered him to remove his cattle and pay judgments against him. Mr. Bundy attempted to pay his grazing fees to Clark County, but the payment was properly rejected due to the County's lack of jurisdiction in the matter. In 1998, U.S. District Court entered an order granting the US a permanent injunction against Cliven Bundy and his family and ordered him to remove his cattle. Mr. Bundy appealed the decision and in 1999, the Appeals Court found in favor for the U.S.

In December, 1998 Clark County purchased the grazing rights to the Bunkerville Allotment for $375,000 and retired them for the benefit and protection of the desert tortoise. Clark County also purchased the range improvements at the request of the BLM. With the on-going trespass, Clark County inquired as to the rights of Cliven Bundy to be on the allotment. In a July, 2002 memo the LV Field Manager stated that the "BLM agrees with your position, Mr. Bundy has no right to occupy or graze livestock in the Bunkerville grazing allotment. Two court decisions, one in Federal District Court and another in the Circuit Court of Appeals, fully supports our positions." Clark County's purchase of the grazing rights and the retirement of those rights was and is a principal part of the mitigation required under the Clark County Multiple Species Habitat Conservation Plan ("CCMSHCP") and associated Incidental Take Permit, which allow for the destruction of habitat and "take" on 145,000 acres of private land in Clark County. To date, approximately 78,260 acres of take have occurred.

www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/public_lands/deserts/nevada/pdfs/Cattle-grazing-in-Gold-Butte-area-11-29-2010.pdf
In this article from back in 1992, Bundy was complaining about money, he made no mention of his hereditary rights to the land.

External Quote:
But several ranchers, warned of the notices for several months, say they have plans to ignore the requests. "This will put the ranching business clear out of southern Nevada," says Cliven Bundy, a rancher using 150,000 acres of public land near Mesquite.

"Southern California, northern Arizona, and Utah will be next," he says, adding that this week's announcement, if complied with, will force 95 percent of his herd - thousands of head of cattle - into expensive feed lots for the three-month period. Costs to consumers would triple.

http://www.csmonitor.com/1992/0212/12081.html
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Sure the same environmental wackos responsible for this mess
External Quote:

In 1998, Clark County bought all valid existing grazing permits for Gold Butte, paying $375,000 to retire them for the benefit of the desert tortoise, Rob Mrowka of the Center for Biological Diversity said in 2012 after his organization filed suit against the BLM for not enforcing previous court orders. All other ranchers in the

area complied with the 'no grazing' rule except for Bundy who's been called the last rancher left in Clark County.
So its not a matter of what he did or did not pay . They just dont want any cattle at all ! http://mesquitecitizen.com/viewnews.php?newsid=7267&id=3
 
deirdre said:
but we're not collecting money from him. its US he's ripping off, dude. WE are feeding his cattle. that's nuts.
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Well here in Florida if you have lots of land all you have to do is put cattle on it and pay no property taxes . Sorry but we eat that cattle so why shouldnt we subsidise him as we do with everybody else ? No its the BLM that ripping us off .
 
Joe said:
Well here in Florida if you have lots of land all you have to do is put cattle on it and pay no property taxes . Sorry but we eat that cattle so why shouldnt we subsidise him as we do with everybody else ? No its the BLM that ripping us off .
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I think you should subsidize me.
 
Joe said:
Well here in Florida if you have lots of land all you have to do is put cattle on it and pay no property taxes . Sorry but we eat that cattle so why shouldnt we subsidise him as we do with everybody else ? No its the BLM that ripping us off .
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and speaking of, I saw all those yahoos threatening to shoot down helicopters... why don't they just take up a collection and pay his fine if youre so ok with paying his way. nothing wrong with that.
 
External Quote:

Cattle Gather Operation Concluded
Update on concluding cattle gather in Nevada (4/12/14, 4:30 pm)

Statement from Director of the Bureau of Land Management Neil Kornze on the Cattle Gather in Nevada:

As we have said from the beginning of the gather to remove illegal cattle from federal land consistent with court orders, a safe and peaceful operation is our number one priority. After one week, we have made progress in enforcing two recent court orders to remove the trespass cattle from public lands that belong to all Americans.

Based on information about conditions on the ground, and in consultation with law enforcement, we have made a decision to conclude the cattle gather because of our serious concern about the safety of employees and members of the public.

We ask that all parties in the area remain peaceful and law-abiding as the Bureau of Land Management and National Park Service work to end the operation in an orderly manner.

Ranching has always been an important part of our nation's heritage and continues throughout the West on public lands that belong to all Americans. This is a matter of fairness and equity, and we remain disappointed that Cliven Bundy continues to not comply with the same laws that 16,000 public lands ranchers do every year. After 20 years and multiple court orders to remove the trespass cattle, Mr. Bundy owes the American taxpayers in excess of $1 million. The BLM will continue to work to resolve the matter administratively and judicially.

National Park Service Closure Maps and Updates


49e000dad106636762abdf7d2c436e6b.gif


Trespass Cattle
49e000dad106636762abdf7d2c436e6b.gif

Last updated: 04-12-2014USA.GOV | No Fear Act | DOI | Disclaimer | About BLM | Notices | Social Media PolicyPrivacy Policy | FOIA | Kids Policy | Contact Us | Accessibility | Site Map | Home
Yet it ddint matter it cost the taxpayer 3 million for this operation ?
 
Joe said:
External Quote:


Yet it ddint matter it cost the taxpayer 3 million for this operation ?
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two wrongs don't make a right. and if you support this guy sponging off the the taxpayers, you give up your rights ti complain about everyone else sponging off the gov. Personally im not willing to give up my griping rights for some old cow poke. ;)
 
deirdre said:
and speaking of, I saw all those yahoos threatening to shoot down helicopters... why don't they just take up a collection and pay his fine if youre so ok with paying his way. nothing wrong with that.
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because if you read the whole story its about removing all cattle no just the money . How does money make it safer for some tortoise ? Do the have a way to get that money to the Tortoises ? I guess I'm way off topic but seems like the facking part was debunked already . Hasnt cost us a dime other than the money wasted trying to remove his cattle .
 
Joe said:
So its not a matter of what he did or did not pay . They just dont want any cattle at all !
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I know. That's what I said in my post.

Trigger Hippie said:
In 1998 Clark County purchased the grazing rights and retired them. Basically, in 1998, the county forbade everyone from using the land.
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Clark County does not want any cattle grazing on that land. Bundy owes unpaid grazing fees and penalties.
 
deirdre said:
two wrongs don't make a right. and if you support this guy sponging off the the taxpayers, you give up your rights ti complain about everyone else sponging off the gov. Personally im not willing to give up my griping rights for some old cow poke. ;)
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! million dollars or 50 million wasted ?
External Quote:
Mrowka contends the cattle damage the forage area in which the endangered desert tortoise lives. Clark County has spent upwards of $50 million dollars over the last twenty years through the Clark County Multi-Species Habitat Conservation Plan protecting primarily the desert tortoise. A refuge area built specifically for the tortoise near Las Vegas is set to close later this year for lack of money
I like turtles they even come ready to eat in their own bowls :)
 
Joe said:
Well here in Florida if you have lots of land all you have to do is put cattle on it and pay no property taxes . Sorry but we eat that cattle so why shouldnt we subsidise him as we do with everybody else ? No its the BLM that ripping us off .
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Do you own a house? Would you let someone else's cattle graze on your land for free? Or would you expect to be compensated for the use of your land?
 
Think of the cows like the greedy white man and the tortoise like the Indians. The cows are not native to the area but want to take the land from the tortoises who are native to that area. ;)
 
Joe said:
I wouldn't either Its not like there's a lot to eat there and its gets almost 120 degrees in the summer :eek:
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? he's got (probably literally) a ton of meat! what do you mean theres nothing to eat? HE SHOULD JUST WRITE A BOOK AND BE DONE WITH IT
 
Soulfly said:
Think of the cows like the greedy white man and the tortoise like the Indians. The cows are not native to the area but want to take the land from the tortoises who are native to that area. ;)
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They are trying to do the same in Utah over Wild Horses which I think aren't native either
External Quote:
ENTERPRISE, Utah (Reuters) - A Utah county, angry over the destruction of federal rangeland that ranchers use to graze cattle, has started a bid to round up federally protected wild horses it blames for the problem in the latest dustup over land management in the U.S. West.
http://news.yahoo.com/wild-horses-t...7--finance.html;_ylt=AwrBJR9gjEhTkXsAzZ3QtDMD
 
Joe said:
No because the government was the aggressor and they backed down . If its Federal Land that means we own it . The people . It could have been a Ruby Ridge or Waco if the public didnt show up . Its a freaking desert , Im surprised they even have cattle there ? Maybe thats where they get Beef Jerky ? Im sick of this endangered species crap . Where does the money go to that the government collects from him ? Whether or not he was wrong I feel there was some sort of victory over our overbloated corrupt government . Its not over anyway .
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That's right it's Federal Land. We own it - not Bundy. The Government is responsible for its care and management and does this through the BLM. One man has said to hell with everyone else, I'm going to use it how I want even if it does decrease its value and some people are rallying around him because they can't see past the the fact the government is involved. As I said before - He's not a hero, he's a selfish twit. It's not comparable to either Waco or Ruby Ridge.
 
Joe said:
They are trying to do the same in Utah over Wild Horses which I think aren't native either
External Quote:
ENTERPRISE, Utah (Reuters) - A Utah county, angry over the destruction of federal rangeland that ranchers use to graze cattle, has started a bid to round up federally protected wild horses it blames for the problem in the latest dustup over land management in the U.S. West.
http://news.yahoo.com/wild-horses-t...7--finance.html;_ylt=AwrBJR9gjEhTkXsAzZ3QtDMD
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Actually horses were native to North America.
http://www.livescience.com/9589-surprising-history-america-wild-horses.html
External Quote:
Modern horses, zebras, and asses belong to the genus Equus, the only surviving genus in a once diverse family, the Equidae. Based on fossil records, the genus appears to have originated in North America about 4 million years ago and spread to Eurasia (presumably by crossing the Bering land bridge) 2 to 3 million years ago. Following that original emigration, there were additional westward migrations to Asia and return migrations back to North America, as well as several extinctions of Equus species in North America.

The last prehistoric North American horses died out between 13,000 and 11,000 years ago, at the end of the Pleistocene, but by then Equushad spread to Asia, Europe, and Africa.
 
Bill said:
That's right it's Federal Land. We own it - not Bundy. The Government is responsible for its care and management and does this through the BLM. One man has said to hell with everyone else, I'm going to use it how I want even if it does decrease its value and some people are rallying around him because they can't see past the the fact the government is involved. As I said before - He's not a hero, he's a selfish twit. It's not comparable to either Waco or Ruby Ridge.
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Care and management ? So lets just Nuke the land and bury nuclear waste under it ? people rally around it becuase its big government against the individual . You cant compare it to Waco because they backed down
 
Pete Tar said:
So that gives a private citizen the right to use it for his own business?
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My question exactly.

That land is just as much mine as it is Bundy's and I say Bundy needs to play by the rules. He has refused to do so for over two decades now. Time for enforcement of the eviction notice.
 
Joe said:
You cant compare it to Waco because they backed down
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Can't compare it to Waco because it isn't his land. This isn't the government abusing eminent domain or harrassing some cult. This is a guy that has trespassed on federal land for over two decades.
 
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Joe said:
Care and management ? So lets just Nuke the land and bury nuclear waste under it ? people rally around it becuase its big government against the individual . You cant compare it to Waco because they backed down
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People are rallying around because they have been told it's a good cause. Bundy is being used for political purposes. But he's being grazing illegally for many years, and not just in the public land he originally had rights to. I'd wager almost none of those militia supporters actually know the facts of the case. Do you? Here they are - both sides (includes statements from Bundy)
https://www.metabunk.org/attachments/bundy-document-19-2-pdf.6859/
 
Jaqui said:
Fact, US Govt wants to kill the tortoises, The Washington Post reported in 2011 that "Federal funds are running out at the Desert Tortoise Conservation Center and officials plan to close the site and euthanize hundreds of the tortoises they've been caring for since the animals were added to the endangered species list in 1990." Fact, Govt is involved in possible fracking on BLM land in NV for oil. Reno Journal "Noble's activities target a checkerboard of private and public land in northeastern Nevada generally located between Elko and Wells north and south of Interstate 80. Sixty-seven percent of the 580-plus square-mile area is privately owned, with the remaining public land managed by the U.S. Bureau of Land Management." Fact, Reid's son is involved with wind & solar farm on BLM land with China "
the director of BLM is Reid's former senior adviser, Neil Kornze. BLM had posted on its website documents stating the agency wanted Bundy's cattle off of the land his family has worked for over 140 years in order to make way for solar panel power stations. The agency removed it when the standoff became national news.
"Non-Governmental Organizations have expressed concern that the regional mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone utilizes Gold Butte as the location for offsite mitigation for impacts from solar development, and that those restoration activities are not durable with the presence of trespass cattle," the document states. That would be the Chinese solar plant – the Management, or BLM" What's true, who knows, fracking, solar/wind China. What we do know is the Fed Gov't removed 50 ranchers and Bundy is a holdout. Cancel his grazing rights in 1994 & his cattle starve. He'll have to relocate. Starve 'em out, wait 'em out.
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Even if they wanted to take the land for fracking, which has been going on for years in Texas around many cattle ranches, how does that effect land usage on the surface? They can still extract every drop of oil and every cubic foot of natural gas from below that land and it matters not what Clive Bundy is doing. They don't need to take the land from him, in other words.
 
Mackdog said:
Even if they wanted to take the land for fracking, which has been going on for years in Texas around many cattle ranches, how does that effect land usage on the surface? They can still extract every drop of oil and every cubic foot of natural gas from below that land and it matters not what Clive Bundy is doing. They don't need to take the land from him, in other words.
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They don't need to take the land from him, because it's not his land.
 
Mick West said:
[...]

The ruling against Bundy from 2013 is attached

Here are the regions under discussion:
show_temp_3.pdf_1_page_20140413_152042_20140413_152047.jpg


This is from the attached file "Bundy Document 19-2.pdf", which contains more details about the case, and is quite fascinating reading.
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Does anybody have a basic breakdown of what is being depicted in this map? I.e. Which land belongs to Bundy? Where have his cattle been trepassing? That kind of thing. This whole story fascinates me.
 
PCWilliams said:
Does anybody have a basic breakdown of what is being depicted in this map? I.e. Which land belongs to Bundy? Where have his cattle been trepassing? That kind of thing. This whole story fascinates me.
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There's a key on the right. Red outline is his old allotment, black outline is areas he's trespassing on that he never had rights to.
 
Mick West said:
People are rallying around because they have been told it's a good cause. Bundy is being used for political purposes. But he's being grazing illegally for many years, and not just in the public land he originally had rights to. I'd wager almost none of those militia supporters actually know the facts of the case. Do you? Here they are - both sides (includes statements from Bundy)
https://www.metabunk.org/attachments/bundy-document-19-2-pdf.6859/
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Beck just had him on his show . He seemed kind of senile . I know and read everything on it . Its the bully tactics from the feds that I dislike . Sure David Koresh had illegal guns so they said but that didnt give the ATF the right to slaughter him and children . BLM looked like a military operation . Its has nothing to do with his fees . Its all about removing ALL CATTLE .Its Environmental wackos suing the feds and forcing them to do something about it .Here they are whining about the outcome
External Quote:
LAS VEGAS— The Bureau of Land Management, National Park Service and other federal agencies today capitulated to threats of violence from armed militia members and ceased their legally and morally required duty to remove trespass cattle from public lands. Even worse, they returned 400 head of cattle rounded up over the past week so they can be illegally turned out on public land again without permit, payment or management oversight.
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2014/gold-butte-roundup-04-12-2014.html
 
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Mick West said:
There's a key on the right. Red outline is his old allotment, black outline is areas he's trespassing on that he never had rights to.
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Mick, does the map depict the land he actually owns?

What i'm trying to show people is, what he owned compared to the area his cattle are trespassing. What i'd really like to show is how his cattle have been grazing further and further from the land he actually owns.

As i understand this issue, he owns a plot of land, his cattle were allowed to graze outside the owned land for free. Then some grazing fees kicked in, which he paid for a while. He then ceased to recognize the federal government (sounds like a sovereign citizen), tried to pay nevada his grazing fees, but the state can't collect federal fees, so Bundy just refused to pay the feds the fees. Trouble ensued.

I'd really like to address the "no fly" zone. People are saying it's over the ranch. It's only a 3 NM radius restricted area that extends only 3,000 feet above the ground. I want to align the restricted airspace over the bundy ranch and the disputed land so i can give people some perspective.

This is a graphic i started to make, trying to provide perspective. I'd really like to overlay the land owned and the trespass area.
map 03.jpg
 
scombrid said:
If I've got a court order to remove the trespassing cows and the owner of those cows and his militia friends are threatening violence, what would be a rational response?



Really? ALL CATTLE EVERYWHERE?
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from that area . Duh :eek: The Militia showed up after the fact not before hand .
 
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scombrid said:
If I've got a court order to remove the trespassing cows and the owner of those cows and his militia friends are threatening violence, what would be a rational response?
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It's not just the militia, Cliven Bundy has been making veiled threats for years...

External Quote:
Last month it was reported that the BLM cancelled a roundup of trespass cattle on the Gold Butte/Bunkerville Allotment because they perceived a threat from Cliven Bundy who wrote to the company contracted to roundup and remove the trespass cattle saying "Cliven Bundy will do whatever it takes to protect his property and rights and liberty and freedoms and those of, We the People, of Clark County Nevada.

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2012/05/15/bundy-will-not-move/
External Quote:
"I've got to protect my property," Bundy said as Arden steered several cattle inside an elongated pen. "If people come to monkey with what's mine, I'll call the county sheriff. If that don't work, I'll gather my friends and kids and we'll try to stop it. I abide by all state laws. But I abide by almost zero federal laws."

That hasn't happened — yet — and the rancher insists his cattle aren't going anywhere. He acknowledges that he keeps firearms at his ranch and has vowed to "do whatever it takes" to defend his animals from seizure.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2013/sep/23/lone-rancher-prepared-fight-feds-land/
 
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