Debate Challenge from Madisonstar Moon to Mick West

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Well yes, but the debate itself was fine. I think the later problems were more from John than Dane. Perhaps he did have multiple viruses.
 

Ross Marsden

Senior Member
Actually, some of them show start/stop in real time. One I've seen is pretty obviously fuel dumps by some fighters. @ about :30, I think.

My guess is that it is one of the US aerobatic teams on their way to a show and testing their smoke system enroute.
I don't want to leave this unresolved. Sorry about going back to the fork.

I saw a better explanation of this somewhere, probably on ContrailScience or here...
Along the lines of... a refuelling of fighters operation; when they are full, the fighters drop below and behind, then power on (at which point their contrails appear), and off they go to complete the mission.


(edited by author to cross it all out. posted in error. my bad. sorry again *shame*)
 
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TWCobra

Senior Member
Except that there is no tanker evident. The USAF Thunderbirds and the USN Blue Angels travel to an airshow every week during the season... Except this year due to cutbacks. The smoke systems need to be tested in the air. The simultaneous turning on of them is the sort of thing they do. I could be wrong but that is my best guess.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member
Except that there is no tanker evident. The USAF Thunderbirds and the USN Blue Angels travel to an airshow every week during the season... Except this year due to cutbacks. The smoke systems need to be tested in the air. The simultaneous turning on of them is the sort of thing they do. I could be wrong but that is my best guess.
I don't know about the US but I know that the Red Arrows keep their website up to date when they were doing training flights etc.
http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/teamnews/index.cfm?storyid=A5CE99B0-5056-A318-A87D19EF1F04A2FE

If a date can be pinpointed surely a call to either teams PR department could solve the issue
 

Ross Marsden

Senior Member
Except that there is no tanker evident. The USAF Thunderbirds and the USN Blue Angels travel to an airshow every week during the season... Except this year due to cutbacks. The smoke systems need to be tested in the air. The simultaneous turning on of them is the sort of thing they do. I could be wrong but that is my best guess.
Ooops. I have to 'fess up here. This is not the video I thought is was. As you were. Disregard.
There are some fighters in that video who are dumping fuel, and that is what the on/off plumes are.
I don't know what is going on with the sequence that is the main interest in that video.
 

TWCobra

Senior Member
The Sukhoi fighters in the first part of the video have a fuel dump system that comes out of the engine. They are doing their party trick similar to what the RAAF F-111s used to do.

If the other fighters are part of an aerobatic team then it wasn't a training flight, just a positioning flight. I used to be a member of the Virtual Thunderbirds; got to meet Capt Nicole Malachowski ( now lieutenant colonel) when she was the first female Thunderbird pilot and due to the anal nature of the Virtual team, can recite their manoeuvres verbatim.

http://www.virtualthunderbirds.com/
 

TEEJ

Senior Member
As a lifelong aviation enthusiast used to identifying many types at a glance I find it very intriguing, especially when I'm shown this stuff as 'evidence'.
The other issue that comes to light is the constant misinterpretation of altitude. Here is Max Bliss ranting about aircraft he is filming being at low altitude. One he declares is at less than a thousand feet! How on earth can they get it so wrong? Ignorance certainly is Bliss!

 

David Fraser

Senior Member
He keeps on changing his measurements from feet to metres. He mentions he has parachuted. I have done my fair share of that mostly out of a C130 at 1000ft and they tend to be pretty distinctive at that height.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
He keeps on changing his measurements from feet to metres. He mentions he has parachuted. I have done my fair share of that mostly out of a C130 at 1000ft and they tend to be pretty distinctive at that height.
A handy trick to try to teach people might be a "rule of thumb".

The width of your thumb at arms length is about 1/40th the distance from eye to thumb.

So if you hold your thumb next to something of known length (say a C130, 100' long) then the distance is that length multiplied by the thumb factor, divided by the amount of thumb widths it appears at arms length.

So, if the length of the C-130 appears the same as your thumb, then it's 100' * 40 / 1 = 4,000 feet.

If it's more like 1/4th the width of your thumb, then it's at 100' * 40 / 0.25 = 16,000 feet

You can work it backwards too, A C-130 at 1000 feet distance would be four thumb widths long.




Hmm, this might be worth writing a post about.
 
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Belfrey

Senior Member
Yeah, I'd try to reduce it to something super simple, like "distance is 4000 divided by your thumb"

Unfortunately division is beyond most people's immediate abilities.
Another way to put: a plane with a length (or wingspan) of 100' at 1000' distance would appear visually about the same size as something about 3 and a half inches across at 3 feet away (or about 4 fingers' width at arm's length).

I dunno, it should be possible to come up with some intuitive comparison using angular diameter calculation.
 

JRBids

Senior Member
He keeps on changing his measurements from feet to metres. He mentions he has parachuted. I have done my fair share of that mostly out of a C130 at 1000ft and they tend to be pretty distinctive at that height.

I live near an air national guard base and we have a C130 that flies in circles low overhead what seems like 24/7. About the same height as your thumb photo.
 

JRBids

Senior Member
Yeah, I'd try to reduce it to something super simple, like "distance is 4000 divided by your thumb"

Unfortunately division is beyond most people's immediate abilities.

LOL unfortunately your whole explanation looked like blah blah blah blah blah blah to me. I am terrible at math.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
LOL unfortunately your whole explanation looked like blah blah blah blah blah blah to me. I am terrible at math.
There's the problem. And why many misconceptions can persist. There's not reason to expect people to get into math. So some things will be forever beyond them.

It's like explaining ice supersaturation vs. water supersaturation, or UVB as a portion of the solar constant. There's no reason for people to have any desire to understand such things. And yet the chemtrails theory persists because of these lack of understandings. It's an insurmountable obstacle for debunkers.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member
The other issue that comes to light is the constant misinterpretation of altitude. Here is Max Bliss ranting about aircraft he is filming being at low altitude. One he declares is at less than a thousand feet! How on earth can they get it so wrong? Ignorance certainly is Bliss!

"They're looking for us, they have to be..."

Umm.... how do you respond to that type of thinking? You can't.
 

TEEJ

Senior Member
"They're looking for us, they have to be..."

Umm.... how do you respond to that type of thinking? You can't.
It is impossible! Max also believes that the 'Black Unmarked Helicopters' are after him due to his chembusters! Not only in France but also when he is out on protests!


From the video description.

This is our 3rd black helicopter fly over that I am aware off....the first the following day after setting up our first chembuster.... another visit months later when I made more chembusters... This time may have been because I have started to add a glass jar of white vinegar inbetween the pipes on top of the base ( it may boost the effects), also in London on the Chemtrails Protest day, whilst being interviewed outside DEFRA, I got a chembuster out to discuss and talked about a black helicopter visiting me before... and amazingly right on cue (and filmed for the documentary) a Black helicopter appeared just above us... disappeared over the high buildings and then reappeared over us before flying away. I look forward to that clip in the upcoming documentary of the Chugaboom Tour. I could not see any markings or registration number on this helicopter and I got very close as it was approximately 100m above...there appeared a couple of flashes...that may have been navigation lights but I only saw the 2...which seemed odd.
 

TEEJ

Senior Member
Really white vinegar is a useful and worth a visit from a 'black helicopter?
It is powerful stuff! Max was skeptical at first but amazingly the chemical clouds are breaking up! You couldn't make it up!


He could try bottle spraying but it doesn't do the lawn any good! The kids comment at 02:42 is a classic :) According to the Mother it only takes ten minutes to make them go away!

 

Mumbles

Active Member
It is impossible! Max also believes that the 'Black Unmarked Helicopters' are after him due to his chembusters! Not only in France but also when he is out on protests!

So am I the only one who noticed the helicopter is neither black nor unmarked (there is writing on the tail-boom) :) ?

Also the powers that be can't have much of an intimidation/surveillance budget if all they can afford to operate is an S-300.
 

TWCobra

Senior Member
So am I the only one who noticed the helicopter is neither black nor unmarked (there is writing on the tail-boom) :) ?

Also the powers that be can't have much of an intimidation/surveillance budget if all they can afford to operate is an S-300.
Correct... Most aircraft viewed against a contrasting cloud in low light will appear dark. The S300 is a low tech, entry level piston engined utility/trainer. Max Bliss should be insulted that the powers that be could only afford to surveille him with such a machine.
 

JRBids

Senior Member
So am I the only one who noticed the helicopter is neither black nor unmarked (there is writing on the tail-boom) :) ?

Also the powers that be can't have much of an intimidation/surveillance budget if all they can afford to operate is an S-300.
So the powers that be have some kind of sensors that smell vinegar? Then they send a black helicopter to investigate? @@
 

JRBids

Senior Member
"They're all flying in the same direction to! "

I like how it's only flying 1000 FEET up, then 30 secs later its 1000 METERS.
 

hemi

Active Member
I see M****** M*** is complaining about metabunk posting some of her (publicly available) photos over here.

Funnily enough, her latest profile pic is a stock-image from here...

http://www.123rf.com/photo_8258823_sky-love-cloud-heart-pierced-by-an-airplane-in-the-sky.html

...from which one of her photoshop-enabled followers has erased the watermark (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=258865670910841&set=a.111048289025914.12243.100003622311420&type=1).

Irony, anyone?
 

hemi

Active Member
Umm... when she says this: "This is the face of my online terrorist", of whom is she speaking? She says someone is calling her [names]. Is she associating that behavior with Metabunk? I'm confused.
It's this page...

https://www.facebook.com/ChemtrailsAreVeryReal

...which does't take the most constructive or polite approach to things. MM's w.... comment is referring to this comment by another anon page that have been calling her out on various issues: Chemtrails ... WHERE'S the evidence???

And she's removed (or changed privacy settings) of her and her metabunk sign now. The ChemtrailsAreVeryReal page have a copy here...
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Removing references to the w word, as otherwise she'll just point to it here and claim we are repeating it. Best to leave her well alone if possible.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member
It's this page...

https://www.facebook.com/ChemtrailsAreVeryReal

...which does't take the most constructive or polite approach to things. MM's w.... comment is referring to this comment by another anon page that have been calling her out on various issues: Chemtrails ... WHERE'S the evidence???



And she's removed (or changed privacy settings) of her and her metabunk sign now. The ChemtrailsAreVeryReal page have a copy here...
Did she really think she could promote herself as a "face" of the chemtrail movement and not have her "face" passed around?
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member
Removing references to the w word, as otherwise she'll just point to it here and claim we are repeating it. Best to leave her well alone if possible.
I get that, but how do we ignore her carrying around a sign about Metabunk at a public demonstration?
 

JRBids

Senior Member
She's said some pretty nasty things about Mick and Metabunk on her page but when someone calls her out it's off limits apparently.
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
Despite all of her activity on Facebook against Metabunk she, (or any female) does not deserve to be called a whore. To do so justifies her belief system (in her mind) and it is just plain wrong.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member
Despite all of her activity on Facebook against Metabunk she, (or any female) does not deserve to be called a whore. To do so justifies her belief system (in her mind) and it is just plain wrong.
To be fair the phrase was/is "she is an attention w####". That is entirely different and in common usage in the UK where the page originates.
 

Landru

Moderator
Staff member
To be fair the phrase was/is "she is an attention w####". That is entirely different and in common usage in the UK where the page originates.
No, I get the phrase and the US has a similar meaning as in the UK. She will, and has, used the word to her own ends. While it is arguable that she seeks attention (and why shouldn't she since she is trying to call attention to a "great crime") I don't think the w appellation does anyone anyone credit. The politeness policy extends to everyone not just those of us on this board.
 

Hama Neggs

Senior Member
She's just trying to provoke a reaction. The best thing to do is ignore her, and take the free publicity.
She's just another person pushing the existence of chemtrails. She'll attract attention. It's going to happen.
No, I get the phrase and the US has a similar meaning as in the UK. She will, and has, used the word to her own ends. While it is arguable that she seeks attention (and why shouldn't she since she is trying to call attention to a "great crime") I don't think the w appellation does anyone anyone credit. The politeness policy extends to everyone not just those of us on this board.
I'll say I don't care for what they are doing over there. It won't accomplish anything. I much appreciate the effort to remain civil here, even though I have my doubts about anything changing the direction in which the chemmies seem to be heading.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
She's just another person pushing the existence of chemtrails. She'll attract attention. It's going to happen.


I'll say I don't care for what they are doing over there. It won't accomplish anything. I much appreciate the effort to remain civil here, even though I have my doubts about anything changing the direction in which the chemmies seem to be heading.
Remember though that debunking is rarely effective against the "true believer". When we debate those true believers, we actually are trying to help the more marginal people who just read what we write. The politeness thing just removes a whole load of potential distractions.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member
... The politeness policy extends to everyone not just those of us on this board.
Erm, what does this mean? Do you mean the principles of politeness for effective communication extend to the rest of the world, or just that we should be polite here if we're talking about someone not-here?
 
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