Claim: Moon Passing The Meridian Disproves Globe Earth

Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member.
Over the course of a year Flat Earth Believer Dave Marsh made observations of the Moon and collected data from the site Time and Date.

From YT video Flat Earth: Moon Race

He's assuming this FE model of Sun movement - an explanation of seasons due to Sun movement.

The Sun moves in a spiral. It's clear that the Sun has to move faster when it's over the Tropic of Capricorn than it does when it's over the Tropic of Cancer.

On FE, Cancer is a smaller circle closer to the North Pole. Capricorn is a larger circle on the far side of the equator.

On SE, Cancer is north of the equator and Capricorn is south.

His hypothesis: The Moon will travel faster when it is over the Tropic of Capricorn than it will when it is over the Tropic of Cancer; and at a speed in between the two when it is over the equator. This difference in speed should be measurable.

Method: Marsh set up his camera in his garden (that's "yard" to us Yanks) and videoed the Moon at calculated times. He was careful to use the same zoom factor each time. He then measured how long it took the Moon to travel across the frame in each video. The elapsed time is correlated with the Moon's proper motion - its true speed over the surface of the Earth.

Oddly, he chose to do this during each lunar month over the year, seemingly never considering that in the FE model he was supposed to be testing, the Moon is over each latitude only once per year.

He chose a cycle based on the inclination of the Moon’s orbit in the SE model. Referring to various online resources, he found the Moon’s altitude above his local horizon at the time the Moon passed his local meridian, and did this on each day during a particular lunar month. He labeled the highest altitude he could find “Cancer,” the lowest “Capricorn,” and the middlemost “Equator.” He considered this the days when the Sun was over these particular latitudes on the surface of the FE. Once again never considering that he was muddling the FE and SE models.

An example:

He considers this the day in this lunar month when the Moon is over the Tropic of Cancer, because this is the highest altitude he can find during the month.

(Note: He mistakenly labels altitude as “declination” in his charts.)

In his video, Moon Race: The motions of the moon from a flat earth perspective, Marsh shows us his videos during March and during August/September:


The lighted side of the Moon "in Capricorn" is just entering the frame. Marsh has estimated the time when the unlit edge entered the frame and estimated the time when the unlit edge touched the right edge of the frame. I suspect this has caused a problem.


This time the Moon "in Cancer" is the one with the dark leading edge.

For March, Marsh doesn’t note his estimated elapsed times for the Moon to completely cross the frame - just ordinal numbers:
Mar 7 - Cancer - 2nd
Mar 12 - Equator - 1st
Mar 21 Capricorn - 3rd

There isn't much difference between the three.

He’s surprised that Capricorn is the slowest. He does mention that this is against his expectations for the FE map (the AE map) , but doesn’t expand on this other than noting that this is “quite interesting.”

In Aug/Sept he notes these estimated elapsed times in minutes and seconds (not clock time):
Aug. 5 - Equator 5:20
Aug. 11 - Capricorn: 5:36
Sept 13 Cancer: 6:15
(Marsh had to wait one extra lunar cycle due to being clouded out on Aug. “Cancer date”.)

Marsh is excited that the Moon "in Cancer" "takes forever" to cross the frame. (Capricorn is once again not the fastest.)

Marsh is convinced there is some cycle he's observing, even though in this limited data set there doesn’t seem to be any pattern, except one he wouldn’t like. I made these charts:

The columns are: Ordinal number, time when Moon passed meridian, declination, altitude, distance from Earth, and Moon phase in relation to the movement across the camera frame.

March 7 - Cancer 2nd Time 20:21 Del +17 57 Alt 55.24 Dis 374,548 Km Leading Edge Lit
March 13 - Equator 1st Time 00:36 Del -1 45 Alt 39.25 Dis 390,364 Km Leading Edge Lit
March 21 -Capricorn 3rd Time 6:40 Del -19 47 Alt 17.23 Dis 400,533 Km Leading Edge Dark

August 5 - Capricorn 2nd 23: 47 Dec -19 37 Alt 17.4 Dis 400,262 Lit
August 11 - Equator 1st 3:49 Dec +4 11 Alt 32.9 Dis 383,419 Slightly dark
Sept 13 - Cancer 3rd 5:59 Dec +15 33 Alt 52.56 Dis 393,922 Dark

By ordinal number:

1st 00:36 - middle 390,364 middle -1.45 middle
2nd 20:21 earliest 374,548 closest +17 57 highest
3rd 6:40 latest 400,533 farthest -19 47 lowest Leading Edge Dark

1st 3:49 middle 383,419 closest +4 11 middle Leading Edge Slightly Dark
2nd 23:37 earliest 400,262 farthest -19 37 lowest
3rd 5:59 latest 393,922 middle +15 33 highest Leading Edge Dark

The only meaningful correlation is Moon phase. When the leading edge was dark, Marsh measured the time to pass through the frame as greatest (and Moon speed as slowest).

In March this was Capricorn, and in Aug/Sept this was Cancer.

I consider the variations in the estimated elapsed times Marsh is presenting as nothing more than measurement error. When the leading edge of the Moon is unlit Marsh has guessed when the leading edge first enters the frame and the moment it touches the right side of the frame. When the leading edge of the Moon was unlit he should have noted when the trailing (lighted) edge was touching the left side of the frame, and when the trailing edge exited the right side of the frame.

I can’t do that because he doesn’t show this. His Moon images just pop out when he thinks the leading edge has touched the right side of the frame.

It’s been pointed out by many people that what Marsh was really seeing was the apparent motion of the Moon due to the Earth’s rotation. Marsh is assuming that he's seeing the ground speed of the Moon over the surface of the FE, without considering the SE model. In the FE model one assumes the observer is motionless and all motions of the Moon would be proper motions. In the SE model the observer is in motion and the Moon is also in motion. Proper motion and apparent motion have to be sorted out; which isn’t easy.

(Even assuming the FE model, Marsh would still have to take distances and perspective into account, which he didn't. He would also have to assume he could measure a difference in speed with his method.)

This is why I'm convinced the varying times are due to measurement error. The apparent motion of the Moon due to orbital speed - and there is such a difference, as I'll show later - is so negligible over a period of just a few minutes that it would not be measurable with Marsh's method in either the SE or FE model.

Marsh made a fundamental error. He assumed the FE model and never considered the SE model.

Assumption: The observer is not moving.
Conclusion: All motion of the Moon observed is proper motion.

Even though Marsh didn't find what he expected - the Moon "over" the Tropic of Capricorn will always be the fastest - he was still convinced that he was seeing some difference in the speed of the Moon, and he sought out evidence of this with a different method. He used data from the site Time and Date and laboriously made charts of his own.

These two -below- show the times the Moon crossed the local meridian in Indonesia, which Marsh uses as an example of how the Moon would act with the observer on the equator.

He's noting the times that the Moon crossed the local meridian. It's well known that the Moon rises 50 minutes later every day on average; but there is a great deal of variation. Marsh is noting the same variation in meridian crossing; which is valid. He's charting the variation in minutes. He has found a cycle which he highlights in yellow.

He produces a chart, which people have noted looks like a heartbeat on an EKG readout.

What he has found is the anomalistic month - the mean time of the moon's revolution from perigee to perigee again. You can see that his highlighted dates correlate with the apogee dates for 2106. Note that there are 12 cycles. Why would there be 12 cycles on a FE?

Marsh has re-discovered the anomalistic month - the mean time of the moon's revolution from perigee to perigee again, being approximately 27.554550 days

The anomalistic month has almost the same period as the synodic month. Marsh mistakenly believes he's found a cycle tied to when the Moon "moves from Cancer to the equator." But this is just a coincidence. The change in the declination (and also altitude) of the Moon is due to the Earth's relation to the inclined orbit of the Moon during a synodic month. The change in the Moon's elapsed time from meridian crossing to next meridian crossing is due to when the Moon is at apogee and perigee in its orbit. They were in this particular relation in 2016, but will slowly move away from this over time.

The elapsed time from lunar meridian crossing to next meridian crossing is least when the Moon is at apogee, and greatest when it is at perigee. An explanation for why this is so highlights the importance of understanding proper and apparent motions.

In Marsh's mind, the decreasing number of minutes from one meridian crossing to the next means that the Moon is traveling faster. It's actually the opposite.

Apogee: The point at which the orbiting body is farthest from the Earth. The "top" of the orbit.
Perigee: Closest.

Orbiting bodies move fastest at perigee and slowest at apogee.

When the Moon is at apogee in its orbit, it is farthest from the Earth; on the left in this illustration. It travels slowest in its orbit at apogee.

This next illustration - below - shows the Earth around the Sun; but imagine it's the Moon around the Earth. The Earth rotates on its axis counterclockwise and the Moon orbits counterclockwise.

When the Moon orbits faster at perigee (on the left in this illustration) it moves more miles in its orbit during one Earth day. The Earth's rotation has to "catch up" more. Therefore it takes more time for the Moon to move through our sky.

When the Moon is moving slower at apogee it travels less distance in its orbit. The Earth's rotation doesn't have to catch up as much. Therefore the Moon takes less time to move through our sky.

At perigee:
Proper motion: Faster
Apparent motion to observer on Earth: Slower

At apogee:
Proper motion: Slower
Apparent motion to observer on Earth: Faster
Last edited:
Thread starter Related Articles Forum Replies Date
R Claim: Apollo 15-17 Live TV Feed - Antenna signal would be interrupted from all the violent shaking when Astronauts touch the buggy General Discussion 26
mudr0 Claim: Australia was not visible from the moon for Apollo 11 Broadcasts Conspiracy Theories 7
Shade sitter Claim: Covid vaccine gives you "Serpent" DNA/marks you 666 Coronavirus COVID-19 9
P Claim: Ronald Reagan warned the world of aliens/alien invasion UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 4
P Claim: Man took photo of an alien spacecraft in 2016 UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 21
Arugula Claim: Only 6% of COVID deaths are "real" - the rest died due to comorbidities Coronavirus COVID-19 10
P Claim: Finding of potentially chemiluminescent compound in soil proves aliens landed UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 11
M Claim: UFO performs sharp maneuver after laser pointer directly hits craft UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 20
Critical Thinker Claim: Correlations Between Media Preference and Coronavirus Infection Rates Coronavirus COVID-19 11
L Claim: NASA is doctoring an image [Scanner Dirt] UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 7
Z.W. Wolf Claim: Martin Gugino Was Using a "Police Tracker." Conspiracy Theories 42
Rory Claim: A dog in Manchester could sense its owner's return by unknown means UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 21
jarlrmai Claim: UFO following jet into landing at JFK on 11/11/19 UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 15
Dingo Claim: U.S. Covid-19 Deaths are being Artificially Inflated Coronavirus COVID-19 38
W Claim: The Heart Is Not A Pump Health and Quackery 6
J Another sun path claim Flat Earth 4
J Claim sun paths prove flat earth Flat Earth 41
Rory Claim: Spanish flu caused by radio waves Coronavirus COVID-19 3
J [False] Claim that Scale Model of 2017 Eclipse Disproves the Heliocentric Model Flat Earth 29
Rory Claim: UK Coronavirus Bill (HC Bill 122) means "bad things" Coronavirus COVID-19 9
Mick West Claim: China Mobile loses 8.116 Million subscribers because of Coronavirus Coronavirus COVID-19 2
Agent K Claim: Harvey Weinstein has coronavirus Coronavirus COVID-19 9
Mick West Claim: Julian Assange offered pardon to "Lie" for Trump Current Events 20
Jesse3959 FE Claim Debunked: JTolan Epic Gravity Experiment - Flat earther disproves Perspective! (or his instruments.) Flat Earth 0
Wiggles Claim: Distant Objects Being Obscured Is Due To the "Mirror Blocking" Effect of Inferior Mirages Flat Earth 7
Mick West Claim: Section 13.1 on Vaccine Inserts Removed to Hide that Vaccines not Tested to Cause Cancer Conspiracy Theories 7
Rory Claim: footage of Great South Bay Bridge supports flat earth Flat Earth 11
Z.W. Wolf Claim: Seeing The Same Stars All Year Disproves Globe Earth Flat Earth 20
Mick West Claim: Fertility Clinics are a new thing (David Icke) Conspiracy Theories 12
Rory Claim: Nasa' in Hebrew means "to deceive" Flat Earth 11
Leifer Claim: magnetic dust on cars proves chemtrail fallout Contrails and Chemtrails 11
Neil Obstat Claim: zooming in on setting sun proves flat earth Flat Earth 23
Marin B Claim: Passenger luggage limited to make room for chemical tanks Contrails and Chemtrails 15
MikeG Claim: DC officials are "flocking" to "Doomsday Camps" Conspiracy Theories 4
StarGazer Convex Earth Claim: Ships Disappear Below The Horizon Due To A Optical Phenomena Flat Earth 3
Nth Claim: 146 Mile Microwave Transmission Proves Flat Earth Flat Earth 26
FlightMuj Apollo 12 photo analysis shows Sun as bulb [claim] Conspiracy Theories 19
inkwell American Airlines Flight 77 Missing from Bureau of Transportation Departure Report 9/11 12
ConfusedHominid Need Debunking (Claim): Metabunk Curve Calculator Does Not Calculate for Angular Size Flat Earth 13
derwoodii Claim Melania Trump has a double, will the real 1st lady please stand up Conspiracy Theories 11
StarGazer Claim: First Image of Space Taken from V-2 Rocket Proves the Earth is Flat Flat Earth 17
Z.W. Wolf Claim: The Moon's Shadow During The Solar Eclipse Disproves Sphere Earth Flat Earth 97
B Claim: Flu vaccine from multi-dose vials Use Too Much Mercury Health and Quackery 19
SR1419 Claim: 757s cant dump fuel. (True) Skydentify - What is that Thing in the Sky? 7
ki_cz Claim: Satellite imagery showing 'sheet' of contrails Contrails and Chemtrails 7
Mick West AE911 Truth Forced to Claim Plasco Collapse is an Inside Job 9/11 336
vaccine papers Claim: flu vaccine increases risk of non-influenza infection Health and Quackery 8
Rory Claim: Japanese man puts animals to sleep with chi UFOs, Aliens, Monsters, and the Paranormal 23
MikeC Claim: FAA conspiring with Police to limit news access to Black Rock General Discussion 3
derwoodii Claim The seabed around Kaikoura, New Zealand has risen by up to 1.8 m earthquake General Discussion 20
Related Articles

Related Articles