Charlie Wiser
Senior Member.
Like this?
Calvine UFO Photo - Reflection In Water Hypothesis
- Thread starter Space_Raider
- Start date
maybe unrelated but something that sprung to mind when looking at this image, why would the fence posts be so black? if it was not a hoax and there was a genuine object in the sky, and nearby fence posts were in the foreground, out of focus, would they appear that dark? is this possibly another point in favour of the reflection hypothesis?
Ann K
Senior Member.
Nice picture. Notice how little of the pine tree is actually reflected, because from water level it's mostly hidden by the bank.
Just two points regarding the aircraft and possible flight paths (it may help in pinpointing the location) - I know that Tornado crews at RAF Lossiemouth would regularly follow the A9 road at low level heading North as they return to base after a sortie as it was a quite fun and winding route.
Also, the plane in the photo, although it does look like a Harrier, also looks a bit like a Hawker Hunter, of which a few of the 2 seat variant were based at RAF Lossiemouth in 1990.
Harrier
Hunter
Calvine jet (flipped horizontally)
Also, the plane in the photo, although it does look like a Harrier, also looks a bit like a Hawker Hunter, of which a few of the 2 seat variant were based at RAF Lossiemouth in 1990.
Harrier
Hunter
Calvine jet (flipped horizontally)
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deirdre
Senior Member.
but isnt the bush more in focus and the rock more in focus (<this is the questiony bit, the rock) than the fence posts?
deirdre
Senior Member.
and how the reflection is lighter.i think this pic is a good idea of how your angles would work...here if we were on the dam walkway the fences might reflect in the "reservoir". i see no rock in any other pics but if there was a drought or after they release some water?
not at all saying this is the location, just the concept is there
https://collections.st-andrews.ac.uk/item/the-chno-dearg/61321/viewer#?#viewer&c=&m=&s=&cv=&xywh=287,665,2285,1142
and this is loch bhac you can zoom to see details more.. i'm not seeing a plausible angle.
https://collections.st-andrews.ac.uk/item/beinn-a-ghlo-from-loch-bhac/61053/viewer#?#viewer&c=&m=&s=&cv=&xywh=296,491,2181,1090
just to point out there is a specific path from Blair to the Bhac loch.
deirdre
Senior Member.
there are some walking paths along some parts of a9 with similar fences by the highway, and even a small river in some sections.. but google car doesnt really get in there to see much so no idea if there are fences closer to the water.
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Rory
Closed Account
According to David Clarke's article in the Daily Mail they finished work, drove about 13 miles north along the A9 to Calvine, and then went for a walk in the hills.
Note the "looking up", which matches the angle suggested by the original photo (ignoring the reflection hypothesis).External Quote:
And none of the trees or hills in the background are reflected.
jarlrmai
Senior Member.
Exposing for the sky makes the other things dark, the problem with this photo is there's just no detail to anything, sky is almost blown out and the other things are under exposed.
So possible light but overcast sky low cloud detail.
Rory
Closed Account
I wonder why the MoD stated they were "confident that aircraft is a Harrier"? Is there really enough detail to make that out, and to eliminate other planes (especially given no Harriers operating in the area at the time)?
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It really is hard to tell. It may be a Harrier. It may be a Hunter. I think the possibility of it being a Hunter should at least be considered bearing in mind the proximity to a base that operates them. Although I'm still not convinced that an RAF plane of either type would be flying at 9pm on a Saturday night.
deirdre
Senior Member.
there were supposedly 5 other photos they had to look at.
deirdre
Senior Member.
it also looks a pretty big pic Craig [..] was holding, it sounds like the MOD had the actual negatives. maybe its actually eaier to tell in a less blown up pic?
Rory
Closed Account
I think it looks even less like a reflection with a bit of colour added.
Nope. But if I was forced to I think I could suggest several more plausible explanations.
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JFDee
Senior Member.
That was precisely what I thought. Except that in my opinion, it's a box of sorts, not a rock.
The plane puzzle is solvable - it may seem that the wrong side is up based on the specific configuration of the horizontal stabilizers.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/calvine-ufo-photo-reflection-in-water-hypothesis.12572/post-276460
deirdre
Senior Member.
it also makes it look like a rock floating in space.
turn it around, its better reflection wise. sitting on your Adirondack chair sipping a beer, zoning out on your pretty pond:
saucerpilot
Member
I thought the same thing. But there are some examples of the reflection being brighter. I think one way to explain that could be particles in the water scattering light from the whole sky. So reflection + scatter.
Compare the overall brightness between the tree and its reflection in this picture:
A bright overcast day would probably scatter the most amount of light off of a murky water.
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saucerpilot
Member
It could be something in the water. Perhaps we're seeing the lake bed just at the shoreline, where we can see a little bit through the murk because the water is shallow enough.
Ann K
Senior Member.
It's good old muddy water, probably after a rain storm. The apparent color of water changes considerably depending on its clarity on any given day. Another factor (that I don't think really affects this particular case) is that water at a distance reflects most of the light, but the closer it is to the observer (that is, the closer the viewing angle gets to 90° from the horizontal), the less light is reflected and the image darkens. So when you look right through the water to the bottom of a pond, that can only be done if you're looking nearly straight down, and you'll usually need to be in the shade to cut out as much sky reflection as possible.
JFDee
Senior Member.
I hope you do not intend to imply that the clear water in a proud Scottish pond has any resemblance to such a mess !!!
Seriously, in this case the particles in the water scatter the daylight. At the same time, they substantially weaken the contrast of the reflection. The details are lost.
Such muddy water is instantly notable anyway.
saucerpilot
Member
I wouldn't be surprised if the results depend hugely on the amount of particles, their size and color, as well as where they are concentrated in the water (near the surface, or deeper).I hope you do not intend to imply that the clear water in a proud Scottish pond has any resemblance to such a mess !!!
Seriously, in this case the particles in the water scatter the daylight. At the same time, they substantially weaken the contrast of the reflection. The details are lost.
Such muddy water is instantly notable anyway.
Anyway, there's not much detail in either the ufo or the jet, so it would be hard to tell how much the contrast is weakened.
deirdre
Senior Member.
use the plane. youve looked at hundreds of planes. does one direction look not natural?
deirdre
Senior Member.
all along B847 from Calvine "center" is a similar fence and a "lowland" nearby, could easily cause puddles at times or flooding since just as the fence ends the Garry River runs near enough the road i can see rocks in it.
I dont know anything about Scotland and rain or flooding though.
and i only saw 2 rocks big enough but wrong shape
ex:
A9 has some areas but i like the fence on B847 better
Rory
Closed Account
The thing about the reflection hypothesis is that means the photographers were lying about what they saw and photographed and therefore there's no reason to believe what they said about the location.
Other hoax hypothesis: the photo was taken somewhere in England, hence why there's a Harrier in it.
Other hoax hypothesis: the photo was taken somewhere in England, hence why there's a Harrier in it.
Charlie Wiser
Senior Member.
The fence posts look fairly in focus to me - or specifically the wires. The photography expert Clarke used said the object was the most in-focus part of the image, but to me it's the least focused thing - its pretty fuzzy compared to the foreground leaves (followed by the fence posts and wires).
Charlie Wiser
Senior Member.
I agree they look very dark and lacking in detail in the wood. Presumably there's a possible angle where you can see the fence reflection but with the fence itself out of frame?
Charlie Wiser
Senior Member.
Yes, it's the length of that walk that we don't know about because Craig Lindsay can't recall what the witness told him. However, if the photo is a hoax than the witness could have been lying about these details.
Charlie Wiser
Senior Member.
Assuming the photographers really did work at the Atholl (which is where Craig Lindsay called one of them to interview him, so he was physically there) as a holiday dishwasher, and that the photo was taken around the time they claimed, it seems likely that even if it's a hoax, it was taken somewhere in that region of Scotland. The specific location could be anywhere for miles around, though.
Mendel
Senior Member.
reflections do not work like shadows
there is no optical path that allows this with a horizontal "mirror"
anything reflected but out of shot has to be above
JMartJr
Senior Member.
Unless you noticed how much that reflection over there looks like a UFO. Though happening to have the jet right there during your photo session would be a real stroke of luck..
saucerpilot
Member
Does the vegetation near the fence appear to be in the foreground, as indicated in this diagram?
If the shapes seen behind the fence are hills, and if the picture was taken from a shallow angles, should the hills necessarily extend farther into the frame than they do?
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Mendel
Senior Member.
if you move the camera down, the distant hills will also appear to "move down" because of perspective.
They will appear lower than usual, not higher as close large objects do.
Easy Muffin
Senior Member.
Something to keep in mind if you think we might be looking at the surface of a body of water, these are the winds speed that day as per https://weatherspark.com/h/d/38062/...-1990-in-Pitlochry-United-Kingdom#metar-20-50
13 mph is between 3 and 4 on the Beaufort scale (gentle to moderate breeze). Not exactly a millpond.
13 mph is between 3 and 4 on the Beaufort scale (gentle to moderate breeze). Not exactly a millpond.
jackfrostvc
Senior Member
This guy did a decent mockup of the reflection theory on the UFOs subreddit
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/wnhhpn/a_quick_mockup_to_help_visualize_the_reflection/
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/wnhhpn/a_quick_mockup_to_help_visualize_the_reflection/
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