"Breakthrough": U.S. Attorney Agrees to Present Evidence of WTC Demolition to Federal Grand Jury.

Jeffrey Orling

Senior Member
These words work.
However, I don't expect a judge or a defendant to be part of Grand Jury proceedings.
The Grand Jury is about the prosecutor and the jury investigating, and the jury determining probable cause.
They have to first determine if there was a crime and they have jurisdiction.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
These words work.
i'm not writing all that everytime. You'll just have to know that if i mean the Judge i will say the Judge. If i mean the whole thing, including background personnel, i'm gonna use "court".
A court is any person or institution with authority to judge or adjudicate, often as a government institution, with the authority to adjudicate legal disputes between parties and carry out the administration of justice in civil, criminal, and administrative matters in accordance with the rule of law.[1]
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However, I don't expect a judge or a defendant to be part of Grand Jury proceedings.

They arent part of the actual proceedings when the prosecutor is directly working with the Grand Jury, from what i've read.

But whatever definitions you think i got wrong, ill stick to my original statement.

i'm totally guessing but i imagine if the Grand Jury (provided they even look at it) asks for an investigation, some criteria would be established. My point is it doesnt matter what the 911 guys SAY is the best evidence. The court doesnt care what they think is the "best" evidence. The court has to look at the whole document that was presented.
The Grand Jury jurors doesnt care what 911 Truth thinks is 'best evidence'.
The US Attorney (which apparently im not allowed to shorten to DA since that's technically incorrect) doesn't care what 911 Truth thinks is 'best evidence'.
The Judge who is available behhind the scenes for judge stuff, doesnt care what 911 Truth thinks is 'best evidence'.
The implied defendant doesn't care what 911 Truth thinks is 'best evidence'
 

Jeffrey Orling

Senior Member
So... if the GJ doesn't take on this investigation... and it amounts to as they say these days... a nothing burger... will anyone find out what their thinking was in deciding not to investigate. Or do they say nothinging?
 

benthamitemetric

Senior Member
So... if the GJ doesn't take on this investigation... and it amounts to as they say these days... a nothing burger... will anyone find out what their thinking was in deciding not to investigate. Or do they say nothinging?

Federal grand jury proceeding must be kept secret by those involved, with only a few narrow exceptions where disclosure would be helpful in connection with some other governmental function.

The applicable rules can be found here.

There is almost no chance that the grand jury proceedings arising out of the complaint in question ever become public.
 

Jeffrey Orling

Senior Member
Federal grand jury proceeding must be kept secret by those involved, with only a few narrow exceptions where disclosure would be helpful in connection with some other governmental function.

The applicable rules can be found here.

There is almost no chance that the grand jury proceedings arising out of the complaint in question ever become public.

I wasn't implying a transcript. I was wondering if there would be some sort of statement as to the reason they did not pursue.
 

benthamitemetric

Senior Member
I wasn't implying a transcript. I was wondering if there would be some sort of statement as to the reason they did not pursue.

The US Attorneys could not publicly comment on the reason it was not pursued because (i) that would require they read the minds of the jurors and (ii) even if they were just speculating, that would require they breach their secrecy obligations (see Rule 6(e)(B)(vi)):


Unless these rules provide otherwise, the following persons must not disclose a matter occurring before the grand jury:

...

(vi) an attorney for the government;
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Mendel

Senior Member.
There is almost no chance that the grand jury proceedings arising out of the complaint in question ever become public.

What would happen if some recordings and transcripts appeared on wikileaks?
Could the jury provide an opinion with their decision?
 

benthamitemetric

Senior Member
What would happen if some recordings and transcripts appeared on wikileaks?
Could the jury provide an opinion with their decision?

I don't think there is an easy answer to this as there is likely little or no precedent, but I don't see how a disclosure of proceeding transcripts, whether authorized or unauthorized, would relieve a juror from such juror's confidentiality obligations with respect to the jury's deliberations (which cannot be recorded and therefore can never be directly disclosed). That said, leaks can and do occur, despite the rules (with many high profile leaks actually being made by prosecutors themselves in ostensible attempts to influence public opinion). Maybe one will happen in this case, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for someone to risk violating the rules over a fringe set of theories that can be directly rebutted by the very prosecutors who have been tasked under applicable law with presenting them to the jury (as those particular prosecutors have already completed extensive investigations in coordination with law enforcement, military and intelligence agencies when they prepared to prosecute Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Ramzi Bin al-Shibh, Walid bin Attash, Ali Abdul Aziz Ali and Mustafa Ahmed al-Hawsawi, all of whom were involved in the actual, well-documented 9/11 terrorist conspiracy).
 
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benthamitemetric

Senior Member
Just to be clear, are you saying that a jury never gives a rationale for their decision?

Correct. Individual jurors may tell each other their respective rationales during deliberations, but there is no record made of those deliberations and certainly no official filing or other document that tries to summarize them. The jurors, whatever their rationales, simply choose to indict (acting by super majority vote) or not.
 

Redwood

Active Member
[snip] I don't think that asking for an investigation is within the role of the GJ. As I understand it the GJ has to decide if the case as presented merits an indictment for trial before a petit jury - i.e. in effect finding thast there is "a case to answer" AKA a "prima facie" case to put to a criminal trial. [snip]

Actually, the Grand Jury is perfectly entitled to conduct an investigation on its own, regardless of the opinion of the U.S. Attorney. This would include issuing subpoenas to possible witnesses and even to persons who could in principle be indicted.

This will of course never happen, as the "Lawyers Committee" petition is pure garbage and the most that will ever happen is that it will be passed around for pure larfs.:confused:
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
This will of course never happen, as the "Lawyers Committee" petition is pure garbage and the most that will ever happen is that it will be passed around for pure larfs.:confused:
i could see the jurors asking for more information for some of it. 3000 people died. It is important to dot your i's and cross your ts.
I'm not sure if ultimately it matters if terrorists planted additional bombs in the garage like they have done in the past, but potentially there could be more terrorists who were never caught.

We know all the debunks of the Truther's 'evidence', but the chances are that the majority of the Grand Jury jurors won't.

Unfortunately we will never know what they do, unless the court decides for some reason it is important to share the information with the public. It is a BIG event, and since there really isnt anyone being accused of anything (defamation), they might decide to let the public know they thoroughly investigated some of the claims.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
Unfortunately we will never know what they do, unless the court decides for some reason it is important to share the information with the public. It is a BIG event, and since there really isnt anyone being accused of anything (defamation), they might decide to let the public know they thoroughly investigated some of the claims.
If there is an additional FBI investigation, the report of that may be released.
 

benthamitemetric

Senior Member
If there is an additional FBI investigation, the report of that may be released.

The FBI already investigated 911. In fact, it was by far the largest criminal investigation in the FBI's history:

Our ensuing investigation of the attacks of 9/11—code-named “PENTTBOM”—was our largest investigation ever. At the peak of the case, more than half our agents worked to identify the hijackers and their sponsors and, with other agencies, to head off any possible future attacks. We followed more than half-a-million investigative leads, including several hundred thousand tips from the public. The attack and crash sites also represented the largest crime scenes in FBI history.
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A public summary report of that investigation has been available for over 12 years now.

Not to go off topic too much, but it says a lot about the truther movement that this extremely pertinent and easily discoverable fact is not widely known among those who subscribe to the various inside job conspiracies. Information bubbles truly are an unfortunate thing. If people were better prepared and willing to truly research this subject, then publicity stunts like this court filing would never be funded and Ed Asner's heirs at least would be much better off.
 

benthamitemetric

Senior Member
@benthamitemetric that's why I wrote additional investigation, and why I thought that report might be published as well

Fair enough on your part, but I'll note that the AE911Truth petition filing does not even mention the fact that the FBI already completed the largest criminal investigation in history concerning the subject matter thereof, let alone take any issue with, or in any way challenge the conclusions from, such investigation, which investigation very conclusively found exactly who was involved in planning, financing and carrying out the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Such findings are entirely inconsistent with the thrust of AE911Truths claims and it is hard to imagine why the FBI would open a new investigation if the findings from its previous one (again, the largest and most involved in its entire history) are not even being disputed. The FBI followed the evidence, not conspiracy theory fantasy, while AE911Truth ignores the evidence and embraces conspiracy theory fantasy.

Also, it is worth noting that this type of petition filing is not needed in order to cause the the FBI to open an investigation into allegations of criminal activity for which there is actual evidence.
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Some action, from the side of the Lawyers’ Committee for 9/11 Inquiry
https://www.ae911truth.org/news/512...aterial-information-in-9-11-grand-jury-filing

Today, the Lawyers’ Committee for 9/11 Inquiry — with whom AE911Truth has partnered in our ongoing Grand Jury Investigation Project — announced the filing of a “petition supplement” naming persons who may have information material to the federal grand jury investigation of the World Trade Center’s explosive demolition on September 11, 2001.

The 33-page document contains 15 different categories of persons who may have information material to the investigation, including contractors and security companies that had access to the WTC Towers before 9/11, persons and entities who benefited financially from the WTC demolitions, and persons arrested after being observed celebrating the WTC attacks.

A names-redacted version of the petition supplement, which was filed with the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York on February 14, 2019, has been made available to the public. The un-redacted version filed with the U.S. Attorney today will remain undisclosed in the interest of maintaining the secrecy, security, and integrity of the grand jury proceeding.

In the Lawyers’ cover letter to the U.S. Attorney, the group indicated that it will consider filing a mandamus action to compel the U.S. Attorney to perform its duty to present the group’s 2018 petition to a federal grand jury if the U.S. Attorney does not respond to earlier inquiries regarding the status of the grand jury proceeding.
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It appears to contain names as diverse as truthers Kevin Ryan, Richard Gage, Neils Harrit, Tony Szambozi (for their 9/11 research and expertise) and Rober Mueller (to ask why the FBI investigation was codename PENTTBOM if there were no bombs). Also firemen, to ask why they described loud bangs as "explosions".
 

Attachments

  • LC-Redacted-Petition-Supplement-021419.pdf
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benthamitemetric

Senior Member
It appears to contain names as diverse as ... Rober[t] Mueller (to ask why the FBI investigation was codename PENTTBOM if there were no bombs).

It never ceases to amaze me just how staggeringly incapable of simple research the people at AE911Truth prove themselves to be with each new claim. With just five minutes of Googling, I found the following passage from a contemporaneous article at Wired that clearly answers this:


... FBI officials later clarified it was "PENTTBOM." They said the "PEN" refers to the Pentagon, where one of the hijacked airlines crashed, and the "TT" refers to the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York, where two other hijacked planes crashed into. The fourth hijacked plane crashed in the Pennsylvania countryside.

The officials said the "BOM" refers to bomb. When the planes loaded with fuel crashed into the buildings, it was like a huge bomb going off.
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(Emphasis added.)

This article has been available online for over 17 years and it's not behind any paywall. This is just another prime example of how AE911Truth's claims are based on nothing more than a penchant for turning their own inexcusable ignorance into conspiratorial innuendo.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
It never ceases to amaze me just how staggeringly incapable of simple research the people at AE911Truth prove themselves
They're capable. They aren't trying to present facts, to the Grand Jury or to their followers, they are trying to eek out a paycheck until they retire.
Why else would they tell the GJ Micheal Hess has "information" about explosions. No he doesn't. Don't get me wrong, i'm fine with him telling the Grand Jury he didnt see any explosions, but still.. way to unecessarily drag out a jury investigation. I can't even fathom how long this "investigation" would take if the jury does decide to try and track down and look into everything and everyone they point to. I'll be so old i won't even remember who 911 Truth is!
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
@benthamitemetric speaking of ... the GJ only is like 18 months at a pop right? what happens, let's say they do decide to follow up on all the stuff presented.. obviously they cant do it all in 18 months.. does the next Grand Jury have to re interview everyone that was already interviewed the previous 18 months? or do they just read the transcripts?
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
The officials said the "BOM" refers to bomb. When the planes loaded with fuel crashed into the buildings, it was like a huge bomb going off.
I expect that's what they want. They imagine they can make the US attorney call Mueller to the stand and make him say this to the jury, because it plants the image of a bomb going off in their minds.

@benthamitemetric speaking of ... the GJ only is like 18 months at a pop right? what happens, let's say they do decide to follow up on all the stuff presented.. obviously they cant do it all in 18 months.. does the next Grand Jury have to re interview everyone that was already interviewed the previous 18 months? or do they just read the transcripts?
The Grand Jury has 36 months to complete the investigation.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3331#a
The grand jury shall serve for a term of eighteen months unless an order for its discharge is entered earlier by the court upon a determination of the grand jury by majority vote that its business has been completed. If, at the end of such term or any extension thereof, the district court determines the business of the grand jury has not been completed, the court may enter an order extending such term for an additional period of six months. No special grand jury term so extended shall exceed thirty-six months, except as provided in subsection (e) of section 3333 of this chapter.
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I'm looking forward to finding out how much of a right to "prosecute by proxy" they're going to be able to assert in the end.
 

benthamitemetric

Senior Member
I expect that's what they want. They imagine they can make the US attorney call Mueller to the stand and make him say this to the jury, because it plants the image of a bomb going off in their minds.

This supposition fails for a number of reasons. Here are just a few of them:

  1. AE911Truth does not allege that bombs (either carried on the planes or already in the building) were detonated simultaneously with the impact of the planes. Those allegations would in fact run counter to AE911Truth's claims that explosives or some kind were set up in the buildings to cause it to collapse after a significant amount of time had elapsed after the plane impacts (or, in the case of WTC7, after debris from the north tower collapse caused fires to rage across several floors for hours). Do you really think they were intentionally trying to plant in the juror's heads an event that is contrary to their allegations?
  2. The FBI's explanation is not only clear and a matter of public record for over 17 years, but it is also eminently reasonable as the plane impacts did result in huge explosions and conflagrations that were already seared into the minds of most Americans by the afternoon of 9/11. In reality, the planes' fuel tanks acted no differently than rudimentary fuel bombs and the terrorists certainly intended them to be used as such. A grand jury proceeding isn't some sensationalized venue like a TV courtroom and AE911Truth's attorneys will almost certainly not be permitted to even attend the proceedings, let alone ask questions. If the US Attorneys do ask Mueller why the investigation was named PENTTBOM, he would just give the very reasonable explanation that has been public record for over 17 years. There is no "gotcha" moment to be had here.
  3. If AE911Truth's attorneys actually knew that PENTTBOM was named as such due to the fact that plane impacts that were the heart of the crime resulted in large, deadly explosions just as bombs would, it seems to me to be highly unprofessional, and I would argue likely unethical, to withhold such explanation from the US Attorneys while posturing that the need for such an answer creates the basis for calling a witness before the grand jury.
Instead of believing that AE911Truth is hiding the truth from the US Attorneys in some ethically-dubious and elaborate plan to mislead the US Attorneys into calling Mueller before the jurors so that Mueller, when asked about the naming of the investigation, can provide a reasonable explanation that has been a matter of public record for 17 years and in no way supports AE911Truth's allegations in the slightest, I believe it is much more likely that AE911Truth was actually ignorant of the explanation. Either way, however, it's not a good look for AE911Truth.


@benthamitemetric speaking of ... the GJ only is like 18 months at a pop right? what happens, let's say they do decide to follow up on all the stuff presented.. obviously they cant do it all in 18 months.. does the next Grand Jury have to re interview everyone that was already interviewed the previous 18 months? or do they just read the transcripts?

As noted by @Mendel, grand juries can be extended for up to 36 months (and so, depending on where they are in their initial term when a case is presented, they can have a maximum period from 18 - 36 mos. to deliberate on that case). I doubt there has ever been a case where a grand jury needed a term longer than that and so I doubt that there is a set procedure for how to replace a grand jury mid-case. If a grand jury can't find probable cause for an alleged crime in 36 months, there is no way it will be prosecutable at a trial.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
If a grand jury can't find probable cause for an alleged crime in 36 months, there is no way it will be prosecutable at a trial.
section 3333 says it can be extended past the 36 months for additional witnesses, but that is ONLY if they have named someone (
supported by the preponderance of the evidence
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) ? is that what this bit is saying (the legalese is so confusing) https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3333

There is no "gotcha" moment to be had here.
I remember when Halbig was trying to get his followers to give him money he said he was going to sue the Sandy Hook parents because he felt that under oath they would have to admit they were crisis actors. Perhaps that is their thinking, that if Mueller is on "the stand" he would finally admit to planting bombs.

But you're right including Mueller specifically makes no sense. Mueller could also testify to all the fireman accounts that were investigated and how they concluded the fuel through elevator shafts etc. hhmm.. weird.
 

Oystein

Senior Member
I totally love how they now implicitly admit they plainly LIED when they claimed formerly that a Special Grand Jury has been empaneled and that the US Attorney agreed they would present the evidence to that SGJ:

https://www.lawyerscommitteefor9-11inquiry.org/12-march-2019-supplement-cover-letter/
Page 4:
... However, the law does not preclude the U.S. Attorney from providing information to the citizens who have reported the crimes at issue regarding whether their information has been provided to the grand jury and whether they may be called to testify or present evidence to the grand jury. If we hear nothing from your office regarding the status of our First Amended Petition (and its supplements), then we are left to assume the worst, that the U.S. Attorney has not and will not submit our information to the Special Grand Jury. We would prefer to believe the best, based on a status report from your office, rather than assuming the worst based on months of silence.
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In other words: The "Lawyers" have zero information beyond the mere letter of receipt of their mail package.

On page 3 and 4 they reveal that they have emailed the US Attorney's office twice, in late November and in February, asking about what the US Attorneys have done with the petition - presented to a SGJ, or intending to do so, etc. Obviously, no reply from the US Attorney's office.

On page 2, they speak about "the Special Grand Jury that is empaneled or will next be empaneld" - indicating the "Lawyers" have as of yesterday zero information about whether a Special Grand Jury has been empaneled as a result of their petition.
This reveals as a lie their article posted last December, titled "Sea Change – 9/11 Grand Jury Empaneled"
https://www.lawyerscommitteefor9-11inquiry.org/2018/12/24/sea-change-9-11-grand-jury-empaneled/
 

Oystein

Senior Member
are you paraphrasing a bit?

they received a letter from the US Attorney that said he would "comply with" section 3332 https://www.metabunk.org/posts/227130/
No.

Read again the last paragraph of my previous post:
This reveals as a lie their article posted last December, titled "Sea Change – 9/11 Grand Jury Empaneled"
https://www.lawyerscommitteefor9-11inquiry.org/2018/12/24/sea-change-9-11-grand-jury-empaneled/
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The claim that a "9/11 Grand Jury [has been] Empaneled" is in the very title of their December article.
The claim that "the US Attorney agreed they would present the evidence" has been made several times in their interviews, a quick example can be found here:
https://www.ae911truth.org/news/508...-richard-gage-on-the-grand-jury-investigation
Editor’s Note: ... Andy Steele is joined by actor/activist Ed Asner and Richard Gage, AIA. They remark on the recent development of the U.S. Attorney agreeing to present the WTC evidence to a special grand jury.
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(My bolding)
 

Oystein

Senior Member
yea, im still not seeing what you are.
It's nit really difficult to parse. The headline is short:

"Sea Change - 9/11 Grand Jury Empaneled"

The second word, "Change" suggests that something has changed. The first word, "Sea", suggests the change is of major proportions. What has changed? The last word holds a clue: "Empaneled". It's the past tense of "to empanel". This indicates that an empaneling of great importance has taken place, and, in conjunction with "Change", we are left to believe that there is now something (a Grand Jury) empaneled where there was none before. The Grand Jury is qualified as a "9/11" Grand Jury. So the claim is, literally, that the SDNY has recentlyrecently e a Grand Jury for (and thus because of) the Lawyers' case.

I quoted this headline twice before, and used the appropriate quote marks in the appropriate places, so I am puzzled why you asked whether I paraphrased.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
The claim that "the US Attorney agreed they would present the evidence" has been made several times in their interviews, a quick example can be found here:
https://www.ae911truth.org/news/508...-richard-gage-on-the-grand-jury-investigation
Editor’s Note: ... Andy Steele is joined by actor/activist Ed Asner and Richard Gage, AIA. They remark on the recent development of the U.S. Attorney agreeing to present the WTC evidence to a special grand jury.
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Note that the attorney wrote only this as to his future actions:
https://www.lawyerscommitteefor9-11...-berman-will-comply-with-18-usc-section-3332/
We will comply with the provisions of 18 U.S.C. § 3332 as they relate to your submissions.
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The committee interpreted this to imply that a special jury would be empaneled, and their evidence presented, but it appears they have now realised that this reading of the US attorney's answer may have been wishful thinking.

Their new cover letter not only reveals that they are now uncertain as to whether there's going to a Special Grand Jury (see Oystein #105 above), they now suspect the prosecutor will not even present their evidence:
https://www.lawyerscommitteefor9-11...-persons-supplement-cover-letter/?wpdmdl=7050 (if someone could upload this here, that would be nice):

1. Will the U.S. Attorney’s Office provide, or has the U.S. Attorney’s Office already provided, to the (same) Special Grand Jury the complete text of the Lawyers’ Committee’s April 10, 2018 original Petition and July 30, 2018 Amended Petition (now including the accompanying Unredacted Petition Supplement)? [...]
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In fact, they now threaten litigation to force the US Attorney to present their evidence, at the end of their letter:

The Board of Directors of our organization will be meeting again soon to consider how we will proceed on this important matter, including our civil litigation option of filing a federal court petition under the federal mandamus statute and the Administrative Procedures Act (APA), 5 U.S.C. §§ 702, 706. As you are aware, the federal mandamus statute 28 U.S.C. § 1361 provides that “The district courts shall have original jurisdiction of any action in the nature of mandamus to compel an officer or employee of the United States or any agency thereof to perform a duty owed to the plaintiff.”. As you may also be aware, there has been previous litigation based on the mandamus statute by citizens who sought to compel the U.S. Attorney to comply with the duty imposed on U.S. Attorneys by 28 U.S.C. § 3332(a) to report information about federal crimes provided by the citizens to a special grand jury. As the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York has noted:

18 U.S.C. § 3332(a) creates a duty on the part of the United States Attorney that runs to the plaintiffs, and the breach of that duty gives the plaintiffs standing to seek its enforcement. ...

To argue, as the government does ... that the prosecutor has total discretion in deciding what information to present to the grand jury flies in the face of the Act’s legislative history. ...

Thus both the language of 18 U.S.C. § 3332(a) and its legislative history indicate that Congress intended to remove the prosecutor’s discretion in deciding whether to present information to the grand jury. He retains discretion with respect to how he acts and what he recommends concerning that information.​

In re Grand Jury Application, 617 F.Supp. 199, 201, 205-06 (S.D.N.Y. 1985). We are hoping to avoid the necessity of a mandamus litigation. In order to do so, we will need to hear from you.
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I had a look at the cited decision earlier, it's at https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/617/199/2246901/
It cites the law ("Any such attorney receiving information concerning such an alleged offense from any other person shall, if requested by such other person, inform the grand jury of such alleged offense, the identity of such other person, and such attorney's action or recommendation."), and quotes the bar association:
It is our belief that the prosecutor should properly be vested with the responsibility of professionally screening allegations of criminal misconduct. At the same time, we recommend that there be built into the process a safeguard that will require the prosecutor to give an accounting of his screening.
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The court then states their own opinion:

Thus both the language of 18 U.S.C. § 3332(a) and its legislative history indicate that Congress intended to remove the prosecutor's discretion in deciding whether to present information to the grand jury. He retains discretion with respect to how he acts and what he recommends concerning that information.

18 U.S.C. § 3332(a) creates a right in every person to have information known by them concerning organized crime to be presented to the grand jury. It provides two ways for this to occureither the court may bring it to the grand jury's attention or a United States attorney can. Plaintiffs have requested one or the other form of relief, in the alternative.
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The ruling is then this:
When first presented with plaintiffs' information in February, the United States Attorney's Office declined to act. ... The statute requires that the information proffered by plaintiffs, and the identity of plaintiffs, be brought to the attention of the grand jury. This order requires no more.
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In the cited case, the prosecutor did not inform the jury at all, and that's clearly illegal.

What we have discussed here earlier is a different question: does the jury have to see all of the citizen-submitted evidence, or whether does prosecutor have discretion on what to present to the jury? The cited ruling leaves some wriggle room on what "information" means, whether that requires passing the verbatim submission of submitted information to the jury, or whether it is enough to provide a summary and wait for the jury to request to see more of the evidence (or not). The lawyer committee clearly favors the former reading, but would they prevail in court? If they did, anyone could simply compile hundreds of hours of youtube videos, claim this was evidence, and tie up a dozen jurors' time with nonsense. I'm expecting a court to rule that the duty of the US attorney is to report on the nature of the alleged crimes, the identity of the informers, and to give a recommendation ("bunch of crackpots, we already did this, ignore"). The jury then decides how to proceed; to see the full submitted evidence or not. I expect the Grand Jury gets the final say on what they spend their time on, not the informers.

The prosecutor could certainly recommend using the existing reports by the FBI, NIST, and the 9/11 commission as evidence.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
I quoted this headline twice before, and used the appropriate quote marks in the appropriate places, so I am puzzled why you asked whether I paraphrased.
you'd make a great biblical literalist! I'm sorry, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't read that title that way at all. Obviously they want to make it a bit clickbaity, but to me the basic premise is true. The US Attorney did agree to present their 9/11 information to a Special Grand Jury.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
you'd make a great biblical literalist! I'm sorry, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't read that title that way at all. Obviously they want to make it a bit clickbaity, but to me the basic premise is true. The US Attorney did agree to present their 9/11 information to a Special Grand Jury.

I'm with Oystein in that headline: "Sea Change – 9/11 Grand Jury Empaneled" appears to me to claim that a Grand Jury has been specifically empaneled to investigate 9/11, and that this is a major event.

However the title of the page is just a copy of the title of the SGT Report video.
Metabunk 2019-03-14 09-16-14.jpg

So it's kind of a passive indirect way of making the claim.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
I'm with Oystein in that headline: "Sea Change – 9/11 Grand Jury Empaneled" appears to me to claim that a Grand Jury has been specifically empaneled to investigate 9/11, and that this is a major event.

hmmm.. no, i dont see that still. i think there is a grand jury in NYC all the time.. but i could be wrong, but if there wasnt a current grand jury operating then they would have to empanel a grand jury for the US attorney to comply with 3332.
I certainly wouldnt qualify that as "lying".

And them complaining that that the US Attorney isnt sending them weekly updates doesnt prove anything. They have no idea what the US Attorney is doing. Maybe the US Attorney DID have to empanel a new jury. But whether he had to empanel a new jury or use an existing one, is the same thing to me. The existing jury, if they had nothing current to investigate, would be home or at work doing nothing and then they would have to come in to the court house to hear the 911 stuff. Semantics i guess.

Either way, i don't personally consider it "lying".
 

benthamitemetric

Senior Member
hmmm.. no, i dont see that still. i think there is a grand jury in NYC all the time.. but i could be wrong, but if there wasnt a current grand jury operating then they would have to empanel a grand jury for the US attorney to comply with 3332.
I certainly wouldnt qualify that as "lying".

And them complaining that that the US Attorney isnt sending them weekly updates doesnt prove anything. They have no idea what the US Attorney is doing. Maybe the US Attorney DID have to empanel a new jury. But whether he had to empanel a new jury or use an existing one, is the same thing to me. The existing jury, if they had nothing current to investigate, would be home or at work doing nothing and then they would have to come in to the court house to hear the 911 stuff. Semantics i guess.

Either way, i don't personally consider it "lying".

Sorry, @deirdre, but I'm with @Mick West and @Oystein on this one. There are typically several active grand juries in each federal court district at a time. At any given time, one or more of these grand juries will be dealing with a variety of alleged crimes on a rolling basis, while others may be empaneled for the purpose of investigating a specific alleged crime or series of related crimes (usually in the case where the allegations are complex, as with Mueller's current grand jury, for example).

I don't see any way of reading "9/11 Grand Jury Empaneled" as other than an affirmative claim that a grand jury has been specifically empaneled to deal with the allegations made by AE911Truth. It's clear, however, that AE911Truth had no basis for claiming that a grand jury was so empaneled; in fact, AE911Truth has no basis for claiming that any of their allegations have even been presented to a regular, standing grand jury. The headline is thus a lie.

It'll be interesting to see what happens if they sue following the precedent cited by @Mendel above (which, as it happens, is the very case I cited as likely controlling in the first page of this thread). As I noted previously, while that precedent seems to deprive the US Attorneys of some level of discretion as to their obligation to pass allegations on to a grand jury, there remain many questions as to the amount of discretion the US Attorneys are allowed to exercise re how that information is passed on and, in any event, whether completely baseless allegations need to be passed on at all. As academically interesting as those questions are to this attorney, knowing the fundamentally flawed premises that underlie the allegations in this case, I can only feel sorry for Mr. Asner and his family that he got suckered into financing this whole misadventure.
 

deirdre

Senior Member.
as other than an affirmative claim that a grand jury has been specifically empaneled to deal with the allegations made by AE911Truth. It's clear, however, that AE911Truth had no basis for claiming that a grand jury was so empaneled;

well i do admit i didnt read that headline as one had literally already been empaneled. I mean it took him 3 months just to "read" the thing and send a reply. Or that the special grand jury is specifically for the 911 case, i mean when they are looking at the 911 case then they are the 911 jury.. but no i always figured whatever special jury was already empaneled would eventually get around to looking at the 911 thing.

That's how i read and am reading the headline. It's always possible i'm reading it wrong. and when you click the link under the headline it seems to agree with me
reflecting the initiation of 9/11 related grand jury proceedings requested by the Lawyers’ Committee.
Content from External Source
But maybe i'm reading that wrong too.
 

Oystein

Senior Member
deirdre, you are reading with the sceptical eyes and mind of someone who looks at the evidence before coming to a judgement.

However, even while I can't rigorously prove such intent, it seems blatantly obvious to me that the headline was designed to invoke in all the gullible followers and potential donors of the "Lawyers' Committee" and AE911Truth (and they only have gullible followers) the idea that the mighty Lawyers have forced the hands of the Law and made the SDNY's US Attorney's empanel a Special Grand Jury for the sole and exclusive purpose of looking into all of the voluminous evidence that "9/11 Truth" has amassed over all these years. And I am only slightly exaggerating.

How can you read "9/11 Grand Jury empaneled" other than "newly and specially empaneled just for us"?

Remember that this article coincided with a fundraising campaign dedicated to bolstering the Lawyers' purses - they collected more than $100,000 from almost 2,000 alleged donors on the weight of that claim.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
https://www.ae911truth.org/news/534...XgYED5zILEORM-A9cWy_6jTFwnS3WXWime8nzJ9DLAAek

The executive director of the Lawyers’ Committee for 9/11 Inquiry, David Meiswinkle, and the Lawyers’ Committee’s litigation director, Mick Harrison, spoke last month by telephone with Michael Ferrara, the chief of the terrorism unit of the United States Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York. Mr. Ferrara is one of two officials who signed the November 7, 2018, letter to the Lawyers’ Committee on behalf of Geoffrey S. Berman, the United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York.



In this phone conversation, Mr. Ferrara confirmed that the November 7, 2018, letter he signed was sent with the intention of conveying to the Lawyers’ Committee that the U.S. Attorney’s Office had received the Lawyers’ Committee’s petition and amended petition (both of which reported federal crimes and evidence relating to the use of explosives at the World Trade Center on 9/11) and that the U.S. Attorney would comply with the federal statute regarding Special Grand Juries as it relates to the two petitions. He said, however, that he could not disclose any information regarding the status of the Lawyers’ Committee’s petition and amended petition due to the secrecy requirements for federal grand jury proceedings imposed by Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 6(e). Attorneys Meiswinkle and Harrison thanked Mr. Ferrara for taking their call.

Rule 6(e) does in fact impose substantial secrecy requirements on federal grand jury proceedings, although federal courts can order disclosure under certain circumstances. Given that the U.S. Attorney’s Office is reading this rule as preventing any disclosure to the Lawyers’ Committee (and all the petitioners) regarding the status of the Lawyers’ Committee’s petition and amended petition, the Lawyers’ Committee is preparing to file a mandamus petition and a petition for disclosure in federal court prior to the upcoming anniversary of 9/11.

The goal of this federal court filing will be to have the court confirm that the U.S. Attorney’s Office has acted in good faith by presenting the Lawyers’ Committee’s petition, amended petition, and petition supplements with accompanying evidence to a federal Special Grand Jury or to confirm that this has not occurred — and, if the latter, to obtain a court order requiring the U.S. Attorney to present the petition, amended petition, and petition supplements with accompanying evidence to a federal Special Grand Jury.
Content from External Source
Short version. The called the New York U.S. Attorney's office to ask how the Grand Jury thing was going. They we told it's secret. So they are filing a petition in federal court to try to move things along.
 

Joe Hill

Member
https://www.ae911truth.org/news/534...XgYED5zILEORM-A9cWy_6jTFwnS3WXWime8nzJ9DLAAek


The goal of this federal court filing will be to have the court confirm that the U.S. Attorney’s Office has acted in good faith by presenting the Lawyers’ Committee’s petition, amended petition, and petition supplements with accompanying evidence to a federal Special Grand Jury or to confirm that this has not occurred — and, if the latter, to obtain a court order requiring the U.S. Attorney to present the petition, amended petition, and petition supplements with accompanying evidence to a federal Special Grand Jury.
Content from External Source
(Emphasis added)
This is where the committee is misleading their followers imo. There is no "good faith" requirement or legal requirement for the U.S. Attorney to present the first whit of evidence, the petition, amended petition, or anything to a Grand Jury. The only requirement is: "Any such attorney receiving information concerning such an alleged offense from any other person shall, if requested by such other person, inform the grand jury of such alleged offense, the identity of such other person, and such attorney’s action or recommendation."
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3332
Only 3 things are required of the U.S. Attorney by law:
1. Inform the GJ of alleged offense
2. Identify to the GJ who is alleging the offense
3. Make a recommendation to the GJ
The Committee and AE911Truth have repeatedly claimed the GJ will be seeing the evidence, and/or the petition. There is no basis for this claim.
I wonder if those organizations are familiar with https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1341
"Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations,..If the violation occurs in relation to, or involving any benefit authorized, transported, transmitted, transferred, disbursed, or paid in connection with, a presidentially declared major disaster or emergency (as those terms are defined in section 102 of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (42 U.S.C. 5122)), or affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both."
(Emphasis added)
Presidential declaration: https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010914-4.html
 

Paradigm_shift

New Member
They are the ones not in AE911Truth. There are millions of people qualified to join. There are 3,000 members.

But let's focus on the petition.

So everyone not in AE9/11 does not agree with what they say simply because they have not joined them.
Following that same logic, only 2800 work at NIST, does that mean everyone who is not at NIST despite being qualified to do so i.e. the millions of architects and engineers who all have studied the collapse of 9/11 from both sides, despite you claiming most people would automatically dismiss it anyway. Paradoxical, irrelevant points.
 

Paradigm_shift

New Member
Where in the petition is this issue raised? Please quote it, and give page numbers.
https://www.metabunk.org/attachments/before-the-pdf.35308/

Page 31

"It is interesting that the FEMA report discussed the “evidence of a severe high temperature corrosion attack on the steel, including oxidation and sulfidation” and called for further investigation, [13] – but the subsequent NIST report [15] failed to address this evidence."
 
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