2020 US Election - Current Events

[Matt33]

any idea what group or ideology that represents?

Search for "punisher", a character from Marvel comics.

 

[Mendel]

Article:

The co-creator of the Punisher, Marvel’s murderously violent vigilante crimefighter, is calling on comic-book artists to create artworks reclaiming the character’s famous skull logo in the name of the Black Lives Matter movement.

Writer Gerry Conway opposes the appropriation of the symbol by police officers, some of whom have been seen wearing it at demonstrations protesting the killing of George Floyd

Source: https://news.artnet.com/art-world/punisher-black-lives-matter-1883013

Article:

When this article was first published on November 16, 2017, ahead of the release of Netflix’s show The Punisher, relations between many Americans and the police were unquestionably tense. Now, in June 2020, that dynamic has combusted into national protests against state-sanctioned violence. One media figure unambiguously on the side of the state is Fox News’ Sean Hannity, who went on air recently wearing a skull-shaped lapel pin. It is the logo of the Punisher, a violent vigilante from Marvel Comics who has become something of a totem for cops and soldiers. We’re republishing this article to offer background on the role the Punisher plays in the self-conception of many members of the police and military professions.

It’s a relationship that became explicitly incongruous last year when the Punisher himself canonically addressed it. In July 2019, writer Matthew Rosenberg inserted a scene into an issue of Punisher in which a group of officers run into the outlaw, whose name is Frank Castle, and fawn over him. “We believe in you,” one of them says while pointing to a Punisher-skull sticker on his car. Frank rips the sticker off and says, “We’re not the same. You took an oath to uphold the law. You help people. I gave all that up a long time ago. You don’t do what I do. Nobody does.” A cop replies, “Like it or not, you started something. You showed us how it’s done.” Frank is unmoved. “If I find out you are trying to do what I do,” he murmurs, “I’ll come for you next.” Here are panels from that issue, with our original story below it.

Source: https://www.vulture.com/article/marvel-punisher-police-cops-military-fandom.html

The punisher is a symbol for abandoning the democratic cornerstone of due process, and stripping human rights from those whom you perceive as criminals.

It's unethical in any philosophy that respects the human individual.

 

[Mick West]

One of the militia who was inside the chamber bore a motif of a flag that looked like the traditional stars and stripes with a stylised skull overlaid on it. Googling for that was futile, as it kept returning skulls with US flags on them, rather than US flags with skulls on them - any idea what group or ideology that represents?

Tip: Put a search in quotes to get more focussed results



Without seeing the image (please post screen captures if possible), I'd guess a Punisher flag (vigilante justice), but it's also a common biker motif symbolizing piracy (independence) and patriotism.

Often the symbolism plays second fiddle to coolness, so don't read too much into any individual example.

Article:

“It’s not me being disrespectful,” said Veziel, 51, who is originally from Montreal but became an American citizen in 2002. “To me, it’s just an American flag with a cool thing on it. I think it’s awesome.”

Source: https://www.patriotledger.com/article/20090806/NEWS/308069605

 

[FatPhil]

Search for "punisher", a character from Marvel comics.

Thanks. It's definitely closest to a stylised Punisher (rounder, but essentially the same - long "teeth" bits, no crossbones). The guy in question is the one Mendel posted an image upthread on page 7: https://www.metabunk.org/threads/2020-us-election-current-events.11439/post-244088

So it's just a "cartoons are cool" guy, that's fine, rather than a particular movement. I like Asterix. (Yes, that's levity involving litotes.)

 

[Mendel]

So it's just a "cartoons are cool" guy, that's fine

More like "vigilantes are cool".

 

[JMartJr]

Then in 2012, Iraq veteran Chris Kyle published his memoir American Sniper, in which he distorted his war record and bragged about spray-painting the Punisher logo on his unit’s equipment during the 2004 battle of Fallujah. Kyle’s machismo and tall tales about shooting “looters” during Hurricane Katrina made him a hero to the far right. When his book was adapted for film in 2014, the Punisher skull gained increased currency among police unions, gun-loving militiamen, and neo-Nazis. Marvel, who did not respond to requests for comment, told Gizmodo last week that it was “taking seriously” unlicensed use of Punisher imagery while its notoriously litigious parent company Disney has not made any legal challenges.

and

Gerry Conway, the Punisher’s politically progressive co-creator and writer, is launching an unusual fundraiser: his own line of shirts designed by people of colour to take the symbol back from the right, with proceeds to go to Black Lives Matter.

Of possible interest...

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...her-skull-make-it-a-black-lives-matter-symbol

 

[Mendel]

Congratulations on your new President, Unites States!

 

[obiwanbenobi]

Congratulations on your new President, Unites States!

thank you. it has been a rather wild ride hasn't it?

let us hope that things improve. so far i'm happy to see mostly competent people being selected for leadership positions.

p.s. i was going to send this response by PM but i can't so i'll post it here.

 

[Leifer]

Kinda old news, but I received a complementary/promotional "sample edition" of "The Epoch Times" hard print copy, in my real mail box.
It seems to be a mass mailing..... to "local postal customer" (me)
However the bi-weekly publication is dated Dec 30, 2020 - Jan 9 2021....... right in the thick of it.

Most recognize this publication as a very right-wing tabloid. But.... it's interesting that you need to "sign-up" to read the content on their website.....aka submit your email address, etc....
Here is their site... https://www.theepochtimes.com/

Here is the paper cover.......


I see lower half of the front page, is an article tittled "More votes Recorded Than Cast: PA Lawmakers"
However, on Dec 29th Pennsylvania "Department of State" released a correction, explaining the nature and reason of the false story....

Harrisburg, PA – On December 28, 2020, a group of Pennsylvania Republican lawmakers released misinformation falsely claiming that certain Department of State data for the November 3 general election were contradicted by data gleaned from county websites. They claimed the discrepancy in the numbers called the election outcome into question, and further claimed that the election should not have been certified.

https://www.dos.pa.gov/about-us/Doc...esponse-PA-GOP-Legislators-Misinformation.pdf

(continued).....Their allegations, based on what they call an analysis of data, are false and misleading, and are based on a comparison of very different systems and data points with different timeframes and incomplete information.... (it goes on........)

This "newspaper" comes in two parts..... the first half is 5 pages, double sided. (interesting, there are no advertisements, except for promotions to subscribe to Epoch Times). The center and seperate fold-out section is labeled... "Opinion & Business", and it is all right-wing opinions, and a tad bit of finance and business tips or comments....... seemingly supplied voluntarily by fans or readers.

 

[Leifer]

I have a good friend (and a really nice honest guy) who happens to be a devout Christian. I grew-up Jewish. (but now I am atheistic).
But we are still good friends. Neither of us uses belief as judgement...... in fact once a year or so, I volunteer at his church. (I find it rewarding)
However he completely subscribes to the ideas in "The Epoch Times".
I don't confront him head-on, but I have mentioned to him, that the paper (and founder) .... seems a bit cult-ish. He has not replied.

 

[deirdre]

seems a bit cult-ish. He has not replied.

bad word. i was talking to a christian guy whose brother had started some church. he was telling me his wife left him because of something super minor to do with that church (i think they had like 50 members), so all i said was something like "youre gonna let your marriage break up over something like that?". He flipped out! Screamed at me to get out of his house and started calling me all sorts of names, accusing me of calling his church a cult etc (granted we were all drunk but still). Anyway his roomate interjected and told him i didnt say anything like that, and then explained to me when i was going to leave anyway that people accuse the church of being a cult so the guy is sensitive. The guy did calm down really fast when he realized i didnt even know the church was a cult but i had to tolerate 2 hours of him showing me books on cults and explaining how his church doesnt fit the bill. (talk about a buzzkill).

Long story short, people are sensitive to being accused of being in cults.

 

[Leifer]

I agree with you....., with this caveat...
I don't find all religion cult-ish, but when I find ideas taught or encouraged.. that seem fairly extreme, I will use the word cult(ish). I'm not afraid to do so.
I have a high tolerance for beliefs, but at some point honesty and reality does surface from me.

I guess it depends on one's definition of what a "cult" is, or is not ?

 

[deirdre]

I have a high tolerance for beliefs, but at some point honesty and reality does surface from me.

that's fine. but you could lose a good friend over it (that particular word). was all i meant with my comment.

 

[obiwanbenobi]

i don't think cult is a poor word choice for what has been obviously to me a cultish phenomenon and i know too many people who believe him no matter what he says or how he behaves.

 

[Mendel]

This is more like 2022 election news, but for those who like to ponder constitutional issues...

Source: https://twitter.com/AriBerman/status/1357378533803360259


Source: https://twitter.com/AriBerman/status/1357381036674609152




I've talked in this forum about how the House GOP reps' filing in the Texas case on the 2020 election was all about throwing out votes on "red tape" type arguments. This is them creating more red tape that is set up to make voting as expensive as possible, to put obstacles in place to keep people from exercising their constitutional right to vote, on the pretense that it prevents fraud.

 

[deirdre]

Based on the loaded language of your twitter posts, i would be wary of using twitter as a source.

And your German opinion statements presented as fact, don't help anyone. Americans need to have trust in the election process or we end up with what we had this year. Personally, i dont care to live through that again.

Georgia:

Article:

Another would ban drop boxes, requiring absentee ballots to be returned through the mail or at county election offices.

......

About three-quarters of voters backed requiring either photo ID or documentation to be able to cast an absentee ballot, according to the poll.

Senators also filed several other election bills Monday, including a measure to require a copy of a voter’s ID, a driver’s license number or a state ID number when requesting an absentee ballot. That bill is less restrictive than a proposal introduced last week that would have required voters to submit a copy of their photo ID twice, both when they apply for absentee ballots and when they return them.

Source: https://www.ajc.com/politics/ga-bills-would-end-no-excuse-absentee-voting-automatic-registration/OBTWL3M6MJH25MI56XGNNUODPY/

Georgia has i believe 16 days of early voting, so you dont need extra absentee ballots really. (and it's not so hard to say you will be out of state.. i do it all the time)

And while i personally find automatic registration convenient, there have been issues in many states of illegal aliens being registered to vote when they get their driver's licenses (which they are now allowed to do. Also, i imagine with automatic registration we are wasting money on polling materials and personnel because we have no idea how many voters actually plan on voting.

That said, i do think government ID should be free for low income people and programs set up to make the program accessible, even if that means sending crews to disability homes with a camera etc.

It is possible to come together rationally on all these issues that erode citizens faith in elections.

it's not really a partisan issue: (news today as Repub win another House seat..yay!)

Article:

Mr. Brindisi could also seek recourse in the House of Representatives, which has the power to order a new election or recount in the race, and potentially unseat Ms. Tenney.

“I am shocked and surprised by this decision because of the countless errors and discrepancies that have occurred throughout this initial count,” Mr. Brindisi said in a statement. “I believe a full audit and hand recount is the only way to resolve this race. With the margin so thin, the ever-changing tally, and the countless errors that have occurred arriving at today’s final number we can’t afford to wonder here. We have to get it right.”

Source: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/new-york-republican-claudia-tenney-wins-final-house-seat/ar-BB1dr6CA?ocid=msedgntp

 

[Mendel]

Based on the loaded language of your twitter posts, i would be wary of using twitter as a source.

Please debunk the argument, then. Cite a few laws from these packages that make it easier to vote.

 

[Mendel]

Voter turnout in Germany (for federal elections) has always been above 70% (of potential voters). ( https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahlbeteiligung )
Voter turnout in the US (for presidential elections) has rarely topped 60% in the past 100 years ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_States_presidential_elections ).

And your German opinion statements presented as fact, don't help anyone. Americans need to have trust in the election process or we end up with what we had this year. Personally, i dont care to live through that again.

I don't trust an election that systematically excludes poor people.

Georgia has i believe 16 days of early voting, so you dont need extra absentee ballots really. (and it's not so hard to say you will be out of state.. i do it all the time)

You seem to not be able to empathize with the obstacles poor people face.

It's already hard for me to understand why you don't have your elections on a day where fewer people work (e.g. a Sunday or a bank holiday). Now imagine a person who has a weekday job that they can't miss, in a state where you can't have a "no questions asked" absentee ballot: no matter when they vote in person they'll miss work; more of it if the state cut the number of polling places, and they don't have a car to cross the distance. And then have a polling place that's understaffed or under-machined, so you have an unpredictable wait time, and voting may cost you a day's earnings (and potentially your job). Should voting be that expensive?
Or wouldn't you want to make voting more convenient so every voter can actually embrace their constitutional right to vote?

If you put up obstacles to voting, you're already "cheating" by depriving citizens of casting their vote. And this is an actual effect with evidence to back it up, not an imagined "stealing" of someone's vote by "fraudulent" Dominion systems.

Just because you don't need an absentee ballot to conveniently cast your vote doesn't mean that everyone else feels the same way.

 

[JMartJr]

That said, i do think government ID should be free for low income people

Likely IDs that would be required for voting would have to be free for anybody who wanted one, otherwise they would be vulnerable to to being ruled a de facto poll tax when challenged in court.
https://www.ncsl.org/documents/legismgt/elect/Voter_ID_Courts_May2014.pdf

The Twenty-fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitutionprohibits requiring payment to vote in federal elections. In Harper v. Virginia Board of Elections (1966), the U.S. Supreme Courtextended this prohibition to state elections. The Court found that state election poll taxes violate the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and, thus, are unconstitutional.

Some early voter ID laws, such as Georgia’s original ID law, included fees for voter identifica-tion cards. ID opponents argued that these fees violated the prohibition on poll taxes.

More recent ID laws have included provisions requiring states to provide ID cards to voters free of charge. Though there is no direct fee for ID in these cases, ID opponents maintain that the laws still violate the poll tax prohibition. Because there are costs associated with obtaining the free ID cards, such as the expense of traveling to an ID-issuing agency, they say these laws still condition voting on a payment.

The source notes further that the first argument has fared better in courts than the second.

(Sorry for the fractured quotation there, there are obviously tricks to formatting this stuff that still elude me...)

 

[deirdre]

Please debunk the argument, then. Cite a few laws from these packages that make it easier to vote.

you speculatively assigning motivation for new laws (and upon conspiracy theorists) is the issue. I'm not interested in your logical fallacy argument.

getting rid of voter registration would make it easier to vote too. or how about we just let everyone with an American phone number text yea or nay to #####? Just because a new idea makes it easier to vote does not mean it is a good idea.

 

[deirdre]

Or wouldn't you want to make voting more convenient so every voter can actually embrace their constitutional right to vote?

you have the right to vote. you dont have the right of an ultra-convenient right to vote. you can vote before work or after work or on your lunch hour.
I wouldnt mind a weekend vote, but many times weekend and holiday pay pay more then weekdays.. so you are really punishing poor people if you take their holiday pay.

As far as understaffed locations or lack of locations, that can be addressed. I don't know what communities would do if they don't have the money for excessive polling machines. Poor communities can have some of ours... i'd be ok with that.

You seem to not be able to empathize with the obstacles poor people face.

i guarantee you i do a hell of a lot more for poor people then has even crossed your mind to do. And i'm not talking just writing a check, I give time and sweat. so...bite me.

 

[Amber Robot]

If your county isn’t providing the facilities that prevent there being eight hour lines for voting then no you can’t vote on your lunch hour or after work.

 

[deirdre]

If your county isn’t providing the facilities that prevent there being eight hour lines for voting then no you can’t vote on your lunch hour or after work.

yea i don't know why California and New York don't fix that problem.

 

[Amber Robot]

yea i don't know why California and New York don't fix that problem.

Many places have that problem.

 

[Mendel]

yea i don't know why California and New York don't fix that problem.

I checked New York. NY had Early voting for the first time this year and apparently misjudged demand. But there are signs they tried to address the problem:

Article:

The Board of Elections decided to allow one extra polling site at Marymount Manhattan. It is an alternate poll site for the people who've faced longlines at the overwhelmed Wagner School.

Source: https://abc7ny.com/politics/early-voting-ny-new-location-to-ease-long-lines/7507473/

I was looking for reports of long lines during election day, but only found reports of sites opening somewhat late:

Article:

NYC Board of Elections spokesperson Valerie Vazquez-Diaz said she had gotten about 10 reports of delayed openings of polling places, predominantly in Brooklyn in Queens, which were all resolved by about 7:30 a.m.

Source: https://www.pix11.com/news/election-2020/election-day-new-york-new-jersey-tracking-long-lines-polling-site-issues-and-more

So what problem does NY have,exactly, and what do you think causes it?

 

[deirdre]

So what problem does NY have,exactly, and what do you think causes it?

Article:

Voters and poll workers saying even with long lines, which have been seen throughout the city, voting is a necessity.

Source: https://abc7ny.com/politics/early-voting-ny-new-location-to-ease-long-lines/7507473/

what do you think causes it?

 

[Z.W. Wolf]

I have a good friend (and a really nice honest guy) who happens to be a devout Christian. I grew-up Jewish. (but now I am atheistic).
But we are still good friends. Neither of us uses belief as judgement...... in fact once a year or so, I volunteer at his church. (I find it rewarding)
However he completely subscribes to the ideas in "The Epoch Times".
I don't confront him head-on, but I have mentioned to him, that the paper (and founder) .... seems a bit cult-ish. He has not replied.

You didn't identify the publisher of Epoch Times.

 

[FatPhil]

constitutional right to vote?

Wow. Nice use of EMPHASIS. Care to provide a citation for that absurd claim instead? Don't sweat it - there isn't one.

 

[Mendel]

Wow. Nice use of EMPHASIS. Care to provide a citation for that absurd claim instead? Don't sweat it - there isn't one.

Ok. Now I'm wondering why the US is calling itself a democracy at all.

Article:

The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States [..]

Source: https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/constitution-transcript

That's the only bit I could find where "the people" actually have a right to vote.

While that is surprising, it doesn't damage my general point, since the same obstructions apply to the House election as to the elections for the Senate and the President.

 

[Landru]

Wow. Nice use of EMPHASIS. Care to provide a citation for that absurd claim instead? Don't sweat it - there isn't one.

There are a number of places in the constitution that cover voting rights. "Voting and Election Laws | USAGov" https://www.usa.gov/voting-laws#item-212489
Article I, the 15th, 19th, 24th and 26th amendments delineate different aspects of voting (African American, woman, poll tax removal and 18+). Federal law further codifies these rights.

 

[Mendel]

Yeah, I just stumbled on that as well.

Article 14 covers the presidential election:

Article:

Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Source: https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/amendment/amendment-xiv

It seems that if a state legislature actually threw out the election result and nominated their own slate of electors for president (as has been suggested last year as a potential option by the StopTheSteal people), that state would immediately lose all of its House Representatives.

Article 17 covers the Senate.

Article:

The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, elected by the people thereof, for six years.

Source: https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/amendment/amendment-xvii

There's your basis, @FatPhil ; turns out my claim wasn't absurd at all.

 

[deirdre]

It seems that if a state legislature actually threw out the election result and nominated their own slate of electors for president (as has been suggested last year as a potential option by the StopTheSteal people), that state would immediately lose all of its House Representatives.

youre using a quote that says only "male" citizens, aged "21"... to come to your conclusion? you don't think that maybe that passage is a bit obsolete?

 

[Leak]

You didn't identify the publisher of Epoch Times.

Mick made a thread with lots of info on the topic of The Epoch Times on the 25th of December last year.

 

[FatPhil]

Ok. Now I'm wondering why the US is calling itself a democracy at all.

Article:

The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States [..]

Source: https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/constitution-transcript

That's the only bit I could find where "the people" actually have a right to vote.

While that is surprising, it doesn't damage my general point, since the same obstructions apply to the House election as to the elections for the Senate and the President.

The history's pretty terrible, but it's been brought up to date - explicitly, SCOTUS from Bush vs. Gore (2000):

The individual citizen has no federal constitutional right to vote for electors for the President of the United States unless and until the state legislature chooses a statewide election as the means to implement its power to appoint members of the Electoral College.

Content from external source

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/00-949.ZPC.html

 

[Z.W. Wolf]

McConnell is really condemning Trump. Is he winding up to a motion to censure?

 

[Z.W. Wolf]

He seems to be calling for either a criminal or civil trial.

 

[deirdre]

He seems to be calling for either a criminal or civil trial.

he's really mad at Trump for him losing his Senate position. A lot of Repubs -including me- think Trump purposefully worked against the Georgia senate election because Trump was mad at McConnell and other Repubs for not backing him. Trump is kinda spiteful that way.

Article:

adding that Trump "seemed determined to either overturn the voters decision or else torch our institutions on the way out."

Source: https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/538772-mcconnell-unloads-on-trump-morally-responsible-for-provoking-mob

A criminal trial would be fantastic. but i'm not getting my hopes up.

 

[Mendel]

 

[deirdre]

and Q is proven right by what they say is Biden's definition when he uses the word "unity". smh. oh well, so it goes on. i love the internet age. (that last bit is sarcasm)

Article:

"While the final vote did not lead to a conviction, the substance of the charge is not in dispute," Biden wrote.

"Even those opposed to the conviction, like Senate Minority Leader McConnell, believe Donald Trump was guilty of a 'disgraceful dereliction of duty' and 'practically and morally responsible for provoking' the violence unleashed on the Capitol."

The president ended his statement by drawing on his previous calls for unity to heal "the soul of the nation."


"This sad chapter in our history has reminded us that democracy is fragile. That it must always be defended. That we must be ever vigilant. That violence and extremism has no place in America. And that each of us has a duty and responsibility as Americans, and especially as leaders, to defend the truth and to defeat the lies," Biden continued.

"That is how we end this uncivil war and heal the very soul of our nation. That is the task ahead. And it's a task we must undertake together. As the United States of America," he concluded.

Source: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-on-trump-acquittal-substance-of-the-charge-is-not-in-dispute/ar-BB1dFfuD?ocid=msedgntp